What About Our 'own' Convictions?

[Genevanpreacher]

Paul left us no example of how to do Baptisms, and though it may say they went down into the water, you and I do that every time we went down into the water to baptize a person and we are not immersing ourselves.  and in those text that say that the person being baptized went down into the water, that is the very thing as they do in our Baptisteries they walk down into the water, it is after they went down into the water where the silence begins.  It is there we have no idea by scriptures what took place. 

 

Read post #68.

[AVBibleBeliever]

A some what good example, Acts 2:2,3 of this actually 'happening'. The room was filled with the wind of the Holy Spirit where the Disciples sat, thus immersing/baptizing them in it.

Fire there in the context is the fire of Judgement.

 

do you get immersed in fire today?

 

Filled in not immersed.

 

Fire is not a good thing here look again at the context and include the surrounding verse that establish the context.

 

 Matt 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

1) this is dirested at Israel not Gentiles

2) the fire is connected to the chaf being burned up if they don't bring forth fruit of repentance

[Genevanpreacher]

I wasn't referring to the fire.

[AVBibleBeliever]

either you believe the text as it stand or You dont believe the English where it stands and you go to the Greek to make a doctrine that is not in the English context and force it.  show one English text that say and John Immersed them into the water, or Jesus was immersed.  As far as we know John poured water on them just as God poured out the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Gentiles.

 

You either admit there is a silence on the issue or you go to an unreliable source to make your conviction.

 

Mine was taught me by tradition not on clear English text of the KJV.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I wasn't referring to the fire.

it doesn't matter both were connected to baptism there in the text.  HOw was baptism of the Holy Ghost done by fire, immersion or did God pour it out as described by peter?

[LindaR]

The baptism of fire is not a promise of blessing for the believer, but a warning of judgment for the unbeliever.

 

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[Genevanpreacher]

 show one English text that say and John Immersed them into the water, or Jesus was immersed. 

 

Matthew 3:16.

¹⁶And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

Straight 'out' of the water, not walked. Please read post #68. Immersed is when you are 'down in' the water, and the 'resurrected' part of baptism is the raising 'out' of the water.

Seems very OBvious to me. Maybe not to you. But that is using the scripture to define itself.

 

There is no reference in scripture to using the hands to 'cup' the water for pouring, or any type of instrument to hold the water to pour.

[Genevanpreacher]

In Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, - we OBserve the baptism of the Lord, and the text saying he was baptized (for clarity, 'immersed') he came up 'out' of the water, not walked out of, but being immersed, which is the act of 'going under the surface' of the water had to come up 'out' of the said water.

Thus, John, in my opinion did 'dunk' the head of our Lord when he baptized him.

Thus, the word in English for immersion is baptize.

 

Didn't use a lick of Greek.

 

Just incase you didn't see the posting AVBB, here.

[Covenanter]

In Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, - we OBserve the baptism of the Lord, and the text saying he was baptized (for clarity, 'immersed') he came up 'out' of the water, not walked out of, but being immersed, which is the act of 'going under the surface' of the water had to come up 'out' of the said water.

Thus, John, in my opinion did 'dunk' the head of our Lord when he baptized him.

Thus, the word in English for immersion is baptize.

 

Didn't use a lick of Greek.

That does use a lick of Greek, as you are defining "baptized" as meaning "immersed." The KJV translators simply used "baptized" knowing that baptism had various meanings:

the immersion or sprinkling with water of converts & babies, (as was the accepted practice by the translators, we wouldn't excommunicate them because they didn't understand the doctrine of baptism the IFB way)

being filled with the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:1-4

the gift of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38

crucifixion, Mat. 20:22-23

killing with a sword, Acts 12:2

casting into hell fire

 

And if we do use a lick of Greek we can add:

ritual washing of hands, cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Mark 7:4

OT cleansing rituals including sprinkling, Heb. 9:10 

 

But - we are an IFB site, & water baptism is of believers only, normally by immersion.

[Genevanpreacher]

That does use a lick of Greek, as you are defining "baptized" as meaning "immersed." The KJV translators simply used "baptized" knowing that baptism had various meanings:

the immersion or sprinkling with water of converts & babies, (as was the accepted practice by the translators, we wouldn't excommunicate them because they didn't understand the doctrine of baptism the IFB way)

being filled with the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:1-4

the gift of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38

crucifixion, Mat. 20:22-23

killing with a sword, Acts 12:2

casting into hell fire

 

And if we do use a lick of Greek we can add:

ritual washing of hands, cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Mark 7:4

OT cleansing rituals including sprinkling, Heb. 9:10 

 

But - we are an IFB site, & water baptism is of believers only, normally by immersion.

 

Assuming when I say the word 'baptize' I am speaking English, with the English alphabet in this very sentence, and using an English vernacular of saying the 'meaning' of the word immersion, I disagree.

 

Here is the pronunciation in Greek, bap-tid'-zo, and here it is in the Greek alphabet,  βαπτίζω.

 

So I don't see the relation.

I clearly am speaking an English word that means immersion, and the English word for immersion is baptism, using the English of the English Bible.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

baptize (v.) c.1300, from Old French batisier (11c.), from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Greek Christian usage, "baptize;" from baptein "to dip, steep, dye, color," from PIE root *gwabh- "to dip, sink." Christian baptism originally consisted in full immersion. Related: Baptized; baptizing.   etymonline.com

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The word "baptize" was used to speak of immersion long before the King James Bible was in existence.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Matthew 3:16.

¹⁶And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

 

Straight 'out' of the water, not walked. Please read post #68. Immersed is when you are 'down in' the water, and the 'resurrected' part of baptism is the raising 'out' of the water.

Seems very OBvious to me. Maybe not to you. But that is using the scripture to define itself.

 

There is no reference in scripture to using the hands to 'cup' the water for pouring, or any type of instrument to hold the water to pour.

I went straight up out of the water after completing my baptisms at a local lake.  I was immerse in the water only up to my waist.  Matthew 3 does not prove he was dunked.  the term Out Of means he left the water.

 

The Translators decided to transliterate the word Baptize because they could not accurately translate it.

[LindaR]

I went straight up out of the water after completing my baptisms at a local lake.  I was immerse in the water only up to my waist.  Matthew 3 does not prove he was dunked.  the term Out Of means he left the water.

 

The Translators decided to transliterate the word Baptize because they could not accurately translate it.

Where is the proof that the Translators decided to transliterate the word "baptize" because they could not accurately translate it? 

 

Strange, the Translators were learned men in the languages from which they translated the KJV into English....and they had to resort to "transliterating"  because they could not accurately "translate" the word "baptize"?  I find that hard to believe.  From what "learned Bible scholar" did this "gem" come from?

[AVBibleBeliever]

I would again like to emphesize that there has never as far as we know, that is the Scholars and others, there is and possibly never was a Koine Greek Language dictionary.  Many men have tried to create one after the fact but seeing many of them are learning from others who also never spoke it. It is a dead language and had fallen out of use around 300 years after Christ ascension.

 

Many dictionaries use a Classical Greek meaning to most of the Koine words.  the prOBlem there is they were tow different types of Greek.  The point we have no understanding of the meaning in Koine or its different uses.  It is OBvious that it had different meanings because of the different ways it is used in our preserved translation of the KJV.

 

I am not against Baptism by immersion, the point is we have no actual instructional steps in the Bible on how anyone who did baptisms actually had done it.  This we can gather from the Scriptures about WATER baptism.

 

1) Bodies of water were used.  In the case of the Philippian Jailer it is not clear where they were baptized.  was it at the river or a pool or well at his home or on the prison grounds where his home may have been.  We know he washed their stripes and the connection in the text makes it look as if they were baptized with the same water he washed Paul and Silas's stripes however that assumption cannot be proven either.  The text does not say they went to the rive and were baptized.  So it is unclear how Paul and Silas baptized them.

 

2) Both the one doing the baptism and the one to be baptized went down into the water (in the case of John the Bapt. he may have already been in the water in some cases).    You always go down into water because the ground under the water slopes downward as you enter. 

 

3) When one was finished the went up out of the water some straightway others may have lingered a little before the went out.  the  ground slopes upward as you leave the water hence any term or reference of going up out of the water.

 

4) No actual instruction by John the Bapt, Christ or Paul on how Baptism was do be done were given.  Only a command to the Disciples of Christ whom were Jewish were they instructed to do so In Matt 28 ( I have stated in other post why I feel that is so and was labeled a false teacher for my opinion).  Paul never gave a command to the church to Baptize he did give us an instruction that we are given the ministry of Reconciliation and the word of Reconciliation 2Cor 5:18-20.  This instruction is different that the instruction to the Jewish disciples at the time of our Lord's Ascension Matthew 28:18-20. Christ instructed the Jewish disciples saying, "Baptize them.... and Teaching them to OBserve all things whatsoever I have commanded you"  Understanding the difference why Baptism was put first in the instructions of Christ to the Jewish Disciples and why Paul never says anything about baptism in his instruction to Jew and Gentile alike will be a good study to do.

 

terms like up and down in the text do not clearly indicate immersion.

 

Transliteration is an indicator that because they could not clearly translate it.  their decision to transliterate rather than translate is because they understood that there was no clear understanding of the word Baptizo.  The Byzantine Text of the Syriac and the Ethiopian translations also do the same in those languages.  The translators did this for many words they could not translate clearly.