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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist

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Dr James Ach
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Yes I remember that post.  One almost anonymous person.  Not a lot to build a whole doctrine on.

 

I understand, but my reason for posting it was just to show an example that the pre-trib rapture view was held long before this Darby character may have popularized it. I'm personally unfamiliar with Darby, though I have heard the name a lot.   :)

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Does Pseudo-Ephraem quote specific Scriptures on which he bases his doctrine? And was he basically sound in his teaching? By the time of his writing, theologians were all over the place in doctrine.

 

Can we read the sermon on line?

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Does Pseudo-Ephraem quote specific Scriptures on which he bases his doctrine? And was he basically sound in his teaching? By the time of his writing, theologians were all over the place in doctrine.

 

Can we read the sermon on line?

 

No, there are no specific Scripture references...only references to Scripture (if that makes sense).  :nuts:

 

You can read it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem

 

I would suggest scrolling down to the "Rhoades Translation"...it's easier to read.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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 I found this analysis:

 

DECEIVED, AND BEING DECEIVED by Dave MacPherson

 

 

So where does P-E place the rapture? The answer is found in his last section (10) where he writes that after "the sign of the Son of Man" when "the Lord shall appear with great power," the "angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!" (Like Morgan Edwards and Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem has the nasty, non-pretrib habit of blending the rapture with the final advent!)

 

I have found the translated text of two versions here:

 

From Section II

Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.

.......

Section X

And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.

Clearly P-E teaches that the "tribulation that is to come" is Hell-fire of the final judgement. Which agrees with Paul's teaching in 2 Thes. 1.

seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

I don't accuse anyone on IFB, but it seems to me that there is a serious element of dishonesty in those who promote Pseudo-Ephraem as a teacher of PTR. It is now easy to check on available sources.

 

 

 

 

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Personally, I have not read any of the P-E stuff.  All I know is that the pre-trib rapture can be seen by rightly dividing the word of truth.  It is in there, and it is what the Apostle Paul taught.  The Tribulation is the time of JACOB's Trouble - and the Church is not JacOB

 

Enough said...

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 I found this analysis:

 

DECEIVED, AND BEING DECEIVED by Dave MacPherson

 

 

I have found the translated text of two versions here:

 

Clearly P-E teaches that the "tribulation that is to come" is Hell-fire of the final judgement. Which agrees with Paul's teaching in 2 Thes. 1.

seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

I don't accuse anyone on IFB, but it seems to me that there is a serious element of dishonesty in those who promote Pseudo-Ephraem as a teacher of PTR. It is now easy to check on available sources.

 

Well, I would disagree with you, and as much as I do disagree with parts of the "sermon"...it seems rather OBvious when reading the whole of the "sermon" that he relates a Pre-Trib doctrine...

 

I'm not defending Pseudo Ephraem by the way...I know nothing about him other than this "sermon", and I've personally never met him.  :coffee2:

 

That's why I said in the original post when I referenced him..."make of it what you will".

 

In my view, he's espousing Pre-Trib, and even the article from WICKEDpedia admits that it is an ancient work from "at least" the 8th century...and that's a long time before this Darby character came on the scene.

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:ot: 

As for the female Mods lets says they wasn't mods, Dr. Ach should never use a coarse phrase the way he did in front of women. There was a time when men controlled how they spoke in front of women whether a man was saved or lost. I like reading Dr. Ach's articles. I joined wordpress so I could thank him for writing them. But he should never say "shove it" as a christian. He's human and made a mistake. We have all been there. 

 

Bro Matt set up a world style system of government for this site. The Biblical system being all male. Yes, that's a mistake. BUT that's his right as owner so while you are kicking him remember he doesn't have time to be on here because he is out preaching salvation to sinners and trying to warm back to life cold half dead christians. Are we out trying to win the lost or setting down complaining on a computer? 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

So a thread that's about wolves attacking us online, moved to "there is no rapture". Can anyone see the irony? This is proof of what James is saying. 

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Personally, I have not read any of the P-E stuff.  All I know is that the pre-trib rapture can be seen by rightly dividing the word of truth.  It is in there, and it is what the Apostle Paul taught.  The Tribulation is the time of JACOB's Trouble - and the Church is not JacOB

 

Enough said...

If "we" are going to discuss pretrib vs <whatever else> then why not post some scripture or link an old discussion? Pseudo-Ephraim is interesting but I didn't see too much Bible. I was meaning to lurk and when I got to the end of the thread all I recalled was a brief 2 Thess 1 comment by Covenanter. Is this a continuation of a discussion on another thread?

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Sorry MountainChristian, but I do need to say one more thing, and then I'll drop it.

 

I don't know this Dave MacPherson character either, but I did notice (in that article Covenanter posted) that he spent an awful lot of time making personal attacks against people (whom I assume) teach a Pre-Trib rapture...making a lot of nasty accusations and dragging their names through the mud to make it even nastier...and using "I won't tell you about...", and then telling about it!

 

It always resorts to attacking the character. Everything he said might be true; I don't know. But what I do know is that he lost all respect and all credibility when he resorted to character assassination...at least, he did in my view. 

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The reason why this EP bloke is relevant is because he discusses pre-trib well before Darby and the other that Invicta lies about being the inventors.
That this argues it well or even biblically is not actually relevant.
Invicta said Darby invented it.
When this Irving bloke was pointed out, Invicta changed his tune slightly.
Now someone from at least the 8th century refers to someone from the 4th century who talks about pre-trib.

Whether this guy is right or wrong about what he says about pre-trib is actually irrelevant - that fact it was discussed at that time PROVE that it was known of a few years before Invicta's lying claims.

This has been pointed out before, but he still rolls out his lies about it.

Whether bit is true or not is another argument - the discussion was going on in 4th century at least.
It was not invented by this Darby chap, end of story.

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The reason why this EP bloke is relevant is because he discusses pre-trib well before Darby and the other that Invicta lies about being the inventors.
That this argues it well or even biblically is not actually relevant.
Invicta said Darby invented it.
When this Irving bloke was pointed out, Invicta changed his tune slightly.
Now someone from at least the 8th century refers to someone from the 4th century who talks about pre-trib.

Whether this guy is right or wrong about what he says about pre-trib is actually irrelevant - that fact it was discussed at that time PROVE that it was known of a few years before Invicta's lying claims.

This has been pointed out before, but he still rolls out his lies about it.

Whether bit is true or not is another argument - the discussion was going on in 4th century at least.
It was not invented by this Darby chap, end of story.

 

I don't tell lies. So please don't call me a liar.  I may make mistakes and I may make misinterpretations, but I don't tell lies.  

 

I spent many years checking on and reading anything I could find on the various interpretations and where they came from.  And anything I have posted on the matter, I have placed it in good faith believing it it be true.

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Invicta, the prOBlem is that you have been saying for years now that Darby "invented" the pre-trib doctrine.  There have been plenty of people - myself included - who have provided sufficient evidence to the contrary.  Yet you continue to say that pre-trib doctrine started with Darby....and even here, in the face of more evidence, you do not apologize for your spreading of this falsehood, but rather cling to a lie that we have dismantled many times over....

 

What gives?  Why can you not simply admit that you are wrong on this point?  If you reject the pre-trib rapture of the church, it is your prerogative.  But don't go around spouting the same nonsense about Darby, when we have proven you wrong on so many occasions.  This is why the others have accused you of lieing - you continue to say Darby invented the pre-trib rapture, even though we have debunked that theory several times.

 

Maybe Darby SYSTEMATIZED what many had taught before him, and maybe Darby POPULARIZED what many had taught before him - but he did not INVENT the pre-trib rapture doctrine. 

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I don't tell lies. So please don't call me a liar. I may make mistakes and I may make misinterpretations, but I don't tell lies.

I spent many years checking on and reading anything I could find on the various interpretations and where they came from. And anything I have posted on the matter, I have placed it in good faith believing it it be true.


This kind of stuff has been shown here before.
You ignore it.
You continue to say Darby invented it when it has been shown before that it was known well before his time.
You still keep saying Darby invented it.
Your continuance in this leads to only two possible conclusions: either you are lying with your claim, or you are calling everyone who has shown this stuff before a liar.

It is not just this time. You have been shown before.
Wear it the way it fits.
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Maybe Darby SYSTEMATIZED what many had taught before him, and maybe Darby POPULARIZED what many had taught before him - but he did not INVENT the pre-trib rapture doctrine. 

 

Is this what's been shown then, that it was being taught in every century, or thereabouts?

 

I don't really follow this ongoing debate but I'm guessing that Invicta is making the claim that Darby 'invented' pre-tribulation rapture because he believes that if there were no believers before Darby and loads afterwards then this is evidence for it being a private interpretation. If that's what he's arguing, then finding one or two people in history who have believed in pre-trib rapture before Darby does no harm to that argument at all, and making the point that, technically, therefore, Darby can't be said to be the 'inventor' just sounds like pedantry.

 

What would harm the argument i.m.o would be showing that regularly throughout history there have been believers of pre-trib rapture doctrine. Or to show that the whole argument was irrelevant--i.e. the doctrine is true even if there has only been a large body of believers in recent years. Maybe those arguments have been made in spades, or others I can't think of, but I do have a bit of sympathy for Invicta in that folk seem to be majoring on a technicality here and then accusing Invicta of being a liar if he doesn't abandon his whole argument.

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