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John Calvin Had It All Wrong

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Yes AVBB, that's surely the key to all things Calvinist (that was good-natured sarcasm, in light of your recent thread). :icon_smile:

 

Would you mind then John for me to take the following communication to the thread on communication and show you just how offensive you are in your communication?  Or can I do it right here?

 

I've posted verses on this many times, including recently, and each time AVBB uses the opportunity to denounce the verses (including those others have posted regarding being born again) so he can promote his opinion that there are several different Gospels for different people and for different times.

 

The way of salvation is simple, as I know you understand. It's man that complicates the issue by trying to add traditions, false teachings, works and assorted hoops to jump through.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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I've posted verses on this many times, including recently, and each time AVBB uses the opportunity to denounce the verses (including those others have posted regarding being born again) so he can promote his opinion that there are several different Gospels for different people and for different times.

 

The way of salvation is simple, as I know you understand. It's man that complicates the issue by trying to add traditions, false teachings, works and assorted hoops to jump through.

 

I just want to know how you know you are saved. I don't care what someone else thinks, I am asking you, and you only. 

 

You answer me and I will be glad to tell you exactly how I know I am saved. 

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Winman, John, that quote from Piper could apply to people with all sorts of theology -

How can I know I am elect?

How can I know my decision for Christ is sincere?

How can I be sure that the assurance I was given by the person who talked me through the sinners' prayer is real?

Adrian Rogers ("disgrace to grace" sermon on Lot) told me that having said the sinners prayer, I am saved forever, even if I live a filthy rotten life - but can I really trust him? [i heard that sermon on radio, & checked it on line.]

 

The answer must be: Build your relationship in love with CHrist & his people, read his Word, pray & meditate on his Word, hate sin & seek to live a life in the Spirit. Those aren't works for salvation, they are evidence of salvation. Our Chrstian life is a walk with God in faith & love.

 

Sure, folks from all different beliefs doubt their salvation from time to time, but it is especially prevalent among Calvinists, and I can understand why. If I was taught that only a regenerated elect person can truly believe, then I would want to know if I am one of those elect persons. Otherwise, my faith could be completely false, how am I to know? And this is exactly what Calvinists themselves have written.

 

 It may surprise you to know that just about every contact I have had with people who are doubting their salvation are Calvinistic in their theology. In other words, they believe in unconditional election. These are the ones who believe in perseverance of the saints. These are the ones that believe that we cannot lose our salvation! Yet these are the ones who are doubting their faith the most.

 

Their issue has to do with their election. Are they truly among the elect? If they are, they believe their faith will persevere until the end. But if they are not, there is no hope. But how are they to know for sure whether they are elect? Maybe their faith is a stated faith? Maybe it is false. The gentleman I talked to today was so riddled with doubt, he was having thoughts of suicide. “How do I know my faith is an elect faith?” He wanted assurance so badly, but felt that his Calvinistic theology prevented him from ever having such assurance.

 
Isn’t this ironic? I have never had a call from an Arminian (or any other believer in conditional election) about this. In my experience, it is only Calvinists who doubt their faith in this way, with such traumatic devastation. Why?
 
This was written by a well known Calvinist blogger who answers questions for Calvinists. He says that the folks who have the greatest prOBlem with assurance are Calvinists. They don't know how to know they are elect, and they don't know how to know their faith is real saving faith. This is the natural consequence of teaching folks that only regenerated elect persons have the ability to believe. Unfortunately, these folks are listening to you. 
 
Just because you go to church or read the Bible doesn't mean you are saved, the folks in Matthew 7 called Jesus "Lord, Lord" (Lordship Salvation), they preached in Jesus's name, cast out devils in his name, and did many wonderful works in Jesus's name, and yet they were completely lost. So the fact that you do certain works or have certain religious feelings does not prove you are saved. 
 
So how do you know you are elect and that your faith is real? 
Edited by Winman
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Has no one meditated on why Israel must be BORN AGAIN?

 

You consider yourselves to be students of God's word, yet this simple questions alludes you?

 

You would do well to stop arguing and bantering throughout this forum and just take time to ask God to reveal to you this simple truth.  And don't come back to the forum until he has revealed it.

 

Why must Israel be born again?

 

Why don't you just say why you believe Israel must be born again and see if folks agree with you? 

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I'm not sitting on a fence, my position has been made clear time and again here for years.

 

It's not your posting of Piper I was thinking of, I was thinking of someone who posted Piper as a positive example of someone/something they agreed with.

 

As far as Piper is concerned, I can only go by what I've read of him. From what I've read, he makes a lot of "out there" statements so that even many Calvinists/Reformed don't care for him. He does seem to have a strong cult type following among a subset. You are correct, Piper is Calvinist/Reformed, and I didn't dispute that.

 

Just a guess, but thinking about the matter I would say R.C. Sproul is much more widely accepted among the Calvinist/Reformed "mainstream". Myself, I know very little of him either.

 

The only "Calvinist" I can think of I'm really familiar with their preaching/writing would be Spurgeon.

 

The many books I have from Sword of the Lord Publishers are of non-Calvinist IFBs. I don't listen to many sermons online but will occasionally listen to FBN. The book I'm currently reading is by non-Calvinist IFB Pastor Scott Markle. I was discipled by a non-Calvinist IFB pastor.

 

If this thread had been only a matter of doctrine, it's likely I would have read and studied the postings without comment; unless I had a question. However, this thread has also gone in the direction of making assumptions and assertions that are directly opposed to reality.

 

I've no prOBlem with sound anti-Calvinist postings but when postings are made that claim to be what Calvinists believe when in fact that's not their belief, such should be confronted. Those sort of postings only weaken any anti-Calvinist stance and open the door for confusion among onlookers and makes way for Calvinists to have a clear shot at an exposed weak point. (I'm speaking in general here and not directly at you)

 

Opposed to reality? I've shown you articles from well known Calvinists that admit assurance is a big prOBlem among Calvinists. That IS reality. These are not articles written by their opponents, but Calvinists themselves. 

Edited by Winman
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Has no one meditated on why Israel must be BORN AGAIN?

 

You consider yourselves to be students of God's word, yet this simple questions alludes you?

 

You would do well to stop arguing and bantering throughout this forum and just take time to ask God to reveal to you this simple truth.  And don't come back to the forum until he has revealed it.

 

Why must Israel be born again?

 

Who or what is Israel? What does it mean to be born again? Where do you read your question? Not specifically in the Bible.

 

We are all born dead - dead in trespasses & sins. ( Eph. 2:1 ) We need to be made spiritually alive, aka born again, & so become children of God. ( John 1, 3 ) 

 

The evidence is that whatever free will the unregenerate have, man's choice is always to reject God. (T) Man only has a choice when presented with the Gospel. John 1 says that the world, & 'his own' (Israel) neither knew nor received him, EXCEPT those born of God. Do we become born again by receiving Christ, them that believe on his name, or do we believe because we are born again? They are two sides of a coin - if we believe, we are born again, & if we are born again, we believe. Note that it is the work of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) & not human birth, nor Abrahamic pedigree. (I)

 

And if we receive Christ, we are born again children of God, we are secure for eternity (P) saved by the atoning blood of Christ. (L) 

 

Of course "Israel" must be born again - as individuals. We can pray & hope for large scale conversion of the Jews, but as conversion means rejection by the Jewish community & state, the church would be swelled by such conversions, we may not see "Israel" being born again. In any case, true Israel comprises believers in Jesus, not unbelievers - not the present state of Israel.

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I did - in this thread in fact. Piper is absolutely main stream thought - he is in fact a TULIP based theologian, reformed theology most definitely. I quoted him as winman to demostrate that main stream calvisinm does in fact teach that the souls salvation by limited atonement

Winman may not be my theology as far as his ideas about Christ go, but his conclusion on no one can know oif they are elect is in fact spot on.

 

John 81, you are a fence sitter brother - always riding along in the middle, not making any waves.

If you cannot speak conclusively to what calvinism teaches, in the main, then perhaps you should refrain from speaking about it all. Or educate your self and stand up and be counted on one side or the other. We are speaking to doctrine here. Not personal relations or experiences.

Calvinsim - is it Biblical or not? A plain yes or no should suffice, and then present your evidence.

I am convinced that this thread has demsotrated Calvinism in the main is a false and heretical teaching.

 

God bless,

calvary

John - I see your contributions as helpful - your give the impression of a faithful Berean, listening carefully to Scriptural arguments & not running with the those who are quick to shout "heresy!"

 

Our discussions are essentially between believers - Children of God, brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

What this thread has demsotrated (sic) is that faithful believers disagree about the interpretation of Scripture. I maintain that we should read it, in context (both historical & grammatical), compare related Scriptures, study how the OT is used & quoted in the Gospels, Acts & letters & Revelation, so that the consensus of Scripture itself guides us to understanding.

 

[i don't like "interpretation" as it tends to mean imposing a theological system on Scripture.]

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One of the prOBlems here is folks jumping to conclusions for some reason. Even when someone clearly says they are only addressing one point, there are those who want to lump them in with the every other thing.

 

Considering my testimony of salvation is in dozens of threads, both past and recent, considering I've posted both the salvation Scriptures as well as assurance Scriptures, it's certainly a wonder to be asked about these matters. Ephesians 2:8 is about as simple as it gets.

 

Back to the one main point I have tried to address here, that being the idea put forth by some that a person who is "Calvinist" isn't saved. That's not reality. You can banter back and forth all you want about the flower and understanding of the particulars and that's fine but that's not what I've addressed at all.

 

Even though I clearly pointed out in at least two separate postings that I'm not arguing for "Calvinism", some want to jump from the fact a person can be saved and yet hold to "Calvinism" to that being somehow a full show of support for "Calvinism". That also is not reality.

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Who or what is Israel? What does it mean to be born again? Where do you read your question? Not specifically in the Bible.

 

We are all born dead - dead in trespasses & sins. ( Eph. 2:1 ) We need to be made spiritually alive, aka born again, & so become children of God. ( John 1, 3 ) 

 

The evidence is that whatever free will the unregenerate have, man's choice is always to reject God. (T) Man only has a choice when presented with the Gospel. John 1 says that the world, & 'his own' (Israel) neither knew nor received him, EXCEPT those born of God. Do we become born again by receiving Christ, them that believe on his name, or do we believe because we are born again? They are two sides of a coin - if we believe, we are born again, & if we are born again, we believe. Note that it is the work of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) & not human birth, nor Abrahamic pedigree. (I)

 

And if we receive Christ, we are born again children of God, we are secure for eternity (P) saved by the atoning blood of Christ. (L) 

 

Of course "Israel" must be born again - as individuals. We can pray & hope for large scale conversion of the Jews, but as conversion means rejection by the Jewish community & state, the church would be swelled by such conversions, we may not see "Israel" being born again. In any case, true Israel comprises believers in Jesus, not unbelievers - not the present state of Israel.

Jesus ministry was to Israel when he told Nicodemus unless a man be born again.  He was not talking about all men.  The whole context and ministry is about Israel.

 

So why must Israel be born again?

 

It is simple and I am surprised why so many go off arguing this and that and cannot answer this simple question.

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I've posted verses on this many times, including recently, and each time AVBB uses the opportunity to denounce the verses (including those others have posted regarding being born again) so he can promote his opinion that there are several different Gospels for different people and for different times.

 

The way of salvation is simple, as I know you understand. It's man that complicates the issue by trying to add traditions, false teachings, works and assorted hoops to jump through.

Just because I believe the gospel is dispensed differently in different ages is no reason for you to go off on a banter.

 

During the OT there were hoops Israel was expected to jump through if they had faith in God's words.  They were, OBedience to his words, keeping his commandments, Sabbaths, Feasts especially, and of course mercy, judgement and love.

 

The way the Gospel is dispensed today is far different than up until Christ's death on the cross and even up to Acts 8.  Faith/belief on the finished work of Christ, as a substitutionary death on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins and that he was burial and rose from the dead on the third day.  No works needed, no prayers, no requirement to believe he is even the Son of God.  Once the church is removed from this planet, despite all the above belief systems to the opposing of it, it shall return to that hoop jumping, commandment keeping combined with Faith/belief dispensation once again for a period known as the time of JacOB's Trouble.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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Jesus ministry was to Israel when he told Nicodemus unless a man be born again.  He was not talking about all men.  The whole context and ministry is about Israel.

 

So why must Israel be born again?

 

It is simple and I am surprised why so many go off arguing this and that and cannot answer this simple question.

Have you read John 1 & 3 ? Note the references to "world."

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Just because I believe the gospel is dispensed differently in different ages is no reason for you to go off on a banter.

 

During the OT there were hoops Israel was expected to jump through if they had faith in God's words.  They were, OBedience to his words, keeping his commandments, Sabbaths, Feasts especially, and of course mercy, judgement and love.

 

The way the Gospel is dispensed today is far different than up until Christ's death on the cross and even up to Acts 8.  Faith/belief on the finished work of Christ, as a substitutionary death on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins and that he was burial and rose from the dead on the third day.  No works needed, no prayers, no requirement to believe he is even the Son of God.  Once the church is removed from this planet, despite all the above belief systems to the opposing of it, it shall return to that hoop jumping, commandment keeping combined with Faith/belief dispensation once again for a period known as the time of JacOB's Trouble.

You are wasting your time. Many here do not believe that God dealt differently with man - ie - dispensations/ages or whatever you want to call it. Ironic as there is a huge difference between OT works and NT grace just to name two examples. Never mind how God dealt with man pre flood and post flood before the Law came into effect. Haven't seen many sacrificing goats and sheep at the temple lately have you?

 

A lot to read, yet the truth is right in there if one bothers to read it.

 

Act 15:1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:3  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12  Then all the multitude kept silence
, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13  And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15  And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17  That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22  Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30  So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31  Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
Act 15:32  And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
Act 15:33  And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
Act 15:34  Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
Act 15:35  Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Act 15:36  And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
Act 15:37  And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Act 15:38  But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
Act 15:39  And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
Act 15:40  And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
Act 15:41  And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

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Note Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed . 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings , how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise , I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep , and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again , saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

What we read is a glorious continuity - promises and fulfilment, covenants NOT dispensations. And all fulfilled in Christ.

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Yes, agreed. It is a glorious continuity. Some just have a hang up with the word "dispensation" and the moment someone uses that word they are regarded as heretics etc. Call it what you will, covenant, ages, dispensations - they are just words meant to describe the same thing - that God dealt with mankind differently during the "glorious continuity" of His interaction with us. Just like the word "rapture" - try find that in the bible. We are not raptured, we are taken up. But that's another debate for the contentous. Haven't been here for a year and I see not much has changed. Still arguing about the same things. Bickering like children over who is more right than the other.

 

Rom 14:1  Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2  For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4  Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7  For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8  For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

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Guys please be very careful talking about this. 

Galatians 1: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

I don't want to see any of you accused, so please choose your words wisely.

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