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Reformed Theology is the same as Covenant Theology.  Covenant Theology uses an historical-grammatical method of Bible interpretation for many passages, but also uses the allegorical or spiritualizing  method of Bible interpretation for a number of prophetic passages dealing with the future of Israel and the future Kingdom of God.  Covenant Theology believes that the Church existed in Old Testament times and that Israel was a major part of the Church in the Old Testament.  Therefore Covenant/Reformed Theology teach that the nation of Israel and the Church are the same, which leads right into Replacement Theology, that the Church has now replaced Israel in the NT.

 

Dispensational Theology does not use the allegorical or spiritualizing method of Bible interpretation, but uses only the historical-grammatical method of Bible interpretation--which means that words are given the common, ordinary meaning meaning which they had in the culture and time in which the passage was written.  IOW, dispensationalism recognizes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church.  Dispensational Theology teaches that the nation of Israel  and the Church are two distinct entities.

 

Conclusion:  Reformed/Covenant Theology = Replacement Theology.  The reason for this teaching is the method of Bible interpretation....allegorical vs. literal.

 

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Pastor Adrian Rogers, a staunch anti-Calvinist, yet called Calvin's Institutes one of the greatest Christian books.   While I don't know what all Reformed Baptist churches hold to, the few I'm famil

Well people make minute differences - variations in small and irrelevant matters and then point to them and claim they are not the same. And there are variations in these as there are in other matte

The prOBlem here, gentlemen, is our human inability to grasp the nature of God, so we want to make it mean what we want it to mean. Does the Bible say God is Spirit? Absolutely. Does it say He has han

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I am amazed at some IFB's who don't know this, Linda (or at least claim they don't know it).  If someone who was raised in the RCC for most of my life, knows what it is, then an IFB should know it.  Maybe a Protestant doesn't know, but I hope they would come to realize what it is.  You gave a very good explanation.  Thank you for re-posting it from the other thread that Happy Christian locked.  Shalom, sister:)

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Well people make minute differences - variations in small and irrelevant matters and then point to them and claim they are not the same.

And there are variations in these as there are in other matters anyway.

But essentially they are indeed the same, come from the same protestant basis and lead to the same false results.

Make of it what you will, and watch them come and tell you that you are wrong and begin twisting things to 'prove it' - but we know the reality.

And we also know that they will continue to push their protestant based false doctrines around with gay abandon.....

Edited by DaveW
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Good post, Dave.  I have to deal with Roman Catholics and Protestants on a daily basis in the real world.  Why is it that "Online Baptist - An Independent Baptist Community since 2002!  (Note the explanation mark at the end of the name of the site, shows excitement) allows Protestants with their false views, run rampant on this forum. However, IFB's are silenced as we contend for the faith?  I just don't understand.  What pains me is the number of IFB's who have left the site, for this very reason, and don't intend to come back.  This site has slowly gone downhill, since I was on it years ago, and keeps riding that slippery slope.  The "falling away" is one of the explanations that I have for this.  It just baffles me to see this happening on the site that taught me many things, years ago.  SMH     

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Okay, that's it. There will be no further hijacking of threads with complaints about 'how bad Online Baptist has gotten.' From anyone. No more complaining about the site, no more putting down the mods. This habit will no longer be tolerated. We do recognize a need for a concerted moderation effort against certain doctrines - Calvinism, in particular - and we are working towards that goal. If you have complaints about issues/persons, please use the Report feature - that's what it's for. This statement should not be misconstrued as insinuating that we do not desire input from OB members - we do. By all means, report it or PM us. We may not get back to you as quickly as we may like, but rest assured that we carefully consider each issue brought to us. However, the kind of public castigation demonstrated by many, including the late James Ach, is neither constructive nor helpful, and certainly does not promote a good spirit on OB. Despite whatever unfounded accusations are being tossed around, we are working hard to try to keep this site a welcoming spot for conservative, independent, fundamental, non-Calvinist, baptist believers. Your assistance and encouragement is appreciated. Your condemnation is not.

Over the past few months, I have repeatedly heard certain folks say how much they dislike OB. Well, if you (speaking generally, not meaning anyone in particular) hate it that badly, why are you still here? I love OB, but I despise these persistent destructive postings that do so much to sow discord and bring up past prOBlems.

Now, Back to the Topic!

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Conclusion:  Reformed/Covenant Theology = Replacement Theology.  The reason for this teaching is the method of Bible interpretation....allegorical vs. literal.

Jesus said that God is a spirit, and is not a physical being, So how do you interpret, let's say Isaiah 59;1? does God have arms or a physical ear?

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Jesus said that God is a spirit, and is not a physical being, So how do you interpret, let's say Isaiah 59;1? does God have arms or a physical ear?


Standard misdirection employed by those who want to promote a false interpretation of the Bible.

No intelligent person would deny that there are symbolic passages in God's Word, but they are clearly indicated in the text.
Throw your red herrings on someone else's table - I don't eat rubbish like that.
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No intelligent person would deny that there are symbolic passages in God's Word, but they are clearly indicated in the text.
Throw your red herrings on someone else's table - I don't eat rubbish like that.

Good, then we agree! Some parts are allegorical and some are literal!
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Okay, that's it. There will be no further hijacking of threads with complaints about 'how bad Online Baptist has gotten.' From anyone. No more complaining about the site, no more putting down the mods. This habit will no longer be tolerated. We do recognize a need for a concerted moderation effort against certain doctrines - Calvinism, in particular - and we are working towards that goal. If you have complaints about issues/persons, please use the Report feature - that's what it's for. This statement should not be misconstrued as insinuating that we do not desire input from OB members - we do. By all means, report it or PM us. We may not get back to you as quickly as we may like, but rest assured that we carefully consider each issue brought to us. However, the kind of public castigation demonstrated by many, including the late James Ach, is neither constructive nor helpful, and certainly does not promote a good spirit on OB. Despite whatever unfounded accusations are being tossed around, we are working hard to try to keep this site a welcoming spot for conservative, independent, fundamental, non-Calvinist, baptist believers. Your assistance and encouragement is appreciated. Your condemnation is not.

Over the past few months, I have repeatedly heard certain folks say how much they dislike OB. Well, if you (speaking generally, not meaning anyone in particular) hate it that badly, why are you still here? I love OB, but I despise these persistent destructive postings that do so much to sow discord and bring up past prOBlems.

Now, Back to the Topic!

 

:goodpost:

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Okay, that's it. There will be no further hijacking of threads with complaints about 'how bad Online Baptist has gotten.' From anyone. No more complaining about the site, no more putting down the mods. This habit will no longer be tolerated. We do recognize a need for a concerted moderation effort against certain doctrines - Calvinism, in particular - and we are working towards that goal. If you have complaints about issues/persons, please use the Report feature - that's what it's for. This statement should not be misconstrued as insinuating that we do not desire input from OB members - we do. By all means, report it or PM us. We may not get back to you as quickly as we may like, but rest assured that we carefully consider each issue brought to us. However, the kind of public castigation demonstrated by many, including the late James Ach, is neither constructive nor helpful, and certainly does not promote a good spirit on OB. Despite whatever unfounded accusations are being tossed around, we are working hard to try to keep this site a welcoming spot for conservative, independent, fundamental, non-Calvinist, baptist believers. Your assistance and encouragement is appreciated. Your condemnation is not.

Over the past few months, I have repeatedly heard certain folks say how much they dislike OB. Well, if you (speaking generally, not meaning anyone in particular) hate it that badly, why are you still here? I love OB, but I despise these persistent destructive postings that do so much to sow discord and bring up past prOBlems.

Now, Back to the Topic!

 

Several months ago, BroMatt private messaged me about my complaints on OB.  I explained what they were, but he never responded back to me.  I private messaged HC, this week about how disgruntled I am with what was said in the OP, and my input was disliked immediately.  We ended up taking about other things in that private message, once she made herself perfectly clear that my complaint wasn't valid in her eyes.  

The only reason I am still on OB, is that I hope this prOBlem stated by the OP will change how OB is run.  The good thing I can say is that OB holds to the KJV, except for a certain member who uses another Bible; however, he doesn't post from it.  Recently, there is a thread about the validity of the KJV, however, I believe the moderator in charge is handling that appropriately.  Those are the reasons, I am staying.  Also, my point is not to so discord.  It is my hope to build up OB, to the site, that it was years ago.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."  ~ Jude 3

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Who are we to say that God's Spirit does not have hands or arms?  Have you ever seen His Spirit?  I haven't.
I agree, DaveW.  Classic misdirection. 
If the Bible says God has hands, arms, feet, & eyes, who is man to question it?

Then if you haven't seen it? How can you prove that He does?
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Then if you haven't seen it? How can you prove that He does?

 

God said in His Word He has hands eyes etc.. Is He a liar?

The prOBlem here, gentlemen, is our human inability to grasp the nature of God, so we want to make it mean what we want it to mean. Does the Bible say God is Spirit? Absolutely. Does it say He has hands, arms, eyes, etc? Absolutely. Let's leave it at that and accept what the Word says, and when we see Him face to face one day, maybe we will be able to grasp it a little bit better. But to argue over HOW it can be one as well as the other is an effort in futility and serves to become vain jangling, (one of my favorite Bible terms, by the way).

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God said in His Word He has hands eyes etc.. Is He a liar?


No. God condescends to our intellect. He speaks to us in language and concepts that we can understand.Do you really think in Psalm 18, God literally reached down from heaven in the same sense that you reach down to pick something up? God omnipotent! He could do anything, He is not bound by physicality.
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The prOBlem here, gentlemen, is our human inability to grasp the nature of God, so we want to make it mean what we want it to mean. Does the Bible say God is Spirit? Absolutely. Does it say He has hands, arms, eyes, etc? Absolutely. Let's leave it at that and accept what the Word says, and when we see Him face to face one day, maybe we will be able to grasp it a little bit better. But to argue over HOW it can be one as well as the other is an effort in futility and serves to become vain jangling, (one of my favorite Bible terms, by the way).


Vain jangling is prOBably in a newer translation, I believe :D
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The prOBlem here, gentlemen, is our human inability to grasp the nature of God, so we want to make it mean what we want it to mean. Does the Bible say God is Spirit? Absolutely. Does it say He has hands, arms, eyes, etc? Absolutely. Let's leave it at that and accept what the Word says, and when we see Him face to face one day, maybe we will be able to grasp it a little bit better. But to argue over HOW it can be one as well as the other is an effort in futility and serves to become vain jangling, (one of my favorite Bible terms, by the way).


Are you seriously going to follow him down his rabbit trail and away from the OP?

He doesn't like the subject and is trying to lead it away.

Go right ahead and feast at his table - but it is a red herring and I just don't like his oily fish........
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The Church is not the “new Israel” or the “spiritual Israel,” but rather “one new man” created of two groups, saved Jews and saved Gentiles (Eph. 2:15; 1 Cor. 10:32). The terms “Israel,” “Israelite,” and “Jew,” are used in the New Testament to refer to national, ethnic Israel. The term “Israel” is used of the nation or the people as a whole or the believing remnant within. It is not used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular. Saved Gentiles of this present age are spiritual sons of Abraham who is the father of all who believe (Rom. 4:12,16; Gal. 3:7,26,29), whether Jews or Gentiles. However, believing Gentiles are not Israelites [that is, they are not the sons of JacOB]. The Israelites are carefully defined by Paul in Romans 9:4-5.

 

Dispensationalism: A Clarifying Statement in View of the Confused Theological Climate

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The only reason I am still on OB, is that I hope this prOBlem stated by the OP will change how OB is run.... [snip] ...Also, my point is not to so discord.  It is my hope to build up OB, to the site, that it was years ago.


Actually, I would say the only reason you're on OB right now is that Matt and the mods seem to have an abundance of grace in letting you routinely whine and whinge about how they are not providing you a good enough service for free and are not putting in enough of their own unpaid hours to respond to all of your pms quickly enough or moderate the site as diligently as you would like. That moan you posted further up I've seen already about 20 times; you've been posting it almost word-for-word ever since you came back to this site.

You say it is your hope to build up OB. Well to me 'building up' means doing things like publicly thanking Matt and mods for what they do, asking them if they want prayer for anything, offering one's own time as a volunteer or if that's not possible then redoubling one's thanks to others for offering theirs. And criticising as kindly as possible by showing one's gratitude at the same time. That's the kind of thing that occurs to me when I think of 'building up' others.

Yet inbetween all the public criticisms of Matt and mods, I've never once seen you do any of the above. On the contrary, when Dr Ach was hollering for Salyan, HC and even Matt to be kicked out of their leadership roles (did he forget that this is a private site that Matt pays for?) you actually *supported* him.

And you say that you don't mean to sow discord, yet when Dr Ach was running around doing hatchet jOBs on folk--John81 by accusing him of not being KJVO and Salyan by doing down her upbringing and church--once again you were supporting him. When HC bans Dr Ach for bad behaviour and you criticise that decision, you in effect endorse all the bad behaviour that culminated in him getting banned.

And then for an encore you respond to Salyan telling you not to criticise their efforts so publicly by...er...having a public moan about how they are not replying to all your pms. You even reinforce your point by highlighting a bit of Salyan's text ('By all means, report it or PM us') despite the fact that the very next sentence of Salyan's is a reminder that they can't always reply because of time constraints. Couldn't make it up!

Bless you for all your wonderful day-to-day contributions to this forum--many more than me. You are one of the regular posters that keeps the forum alive. But boy do you mistake building up for sticking the boot in.

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Vain jangling is prOBably in a newer translation, I believe :D

 Wrong, Jeffrey!  It is in the KJV.

"From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;" ~ I Timothy 1:6

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Actually, I would say the only reason you're on OB right now is that Matt and the mods seem to have an abundance of grace in letting you routinely whine and whinge about how they are not providing you a good enough service for free and are not putting in enough of their own unpaid hours to respond to all of your pms quickly enough or moderate the site as diligently as you would like. That moan you posted further up I've seen already about 20 times; you've been posting it almost word-for-word ever since you came back to this site.

You say it is your hope to build up OB. Well to me 'building up' means doing things like publicly thanking Matt and mods for what they do, asking them if they want prayer for anything, offering one's own time as a volunteer or if that's not possible then redoubling one's thanks to others for offering theirs. And criticising as kindly as possible by showing one's gratitude at the same time. That's the kind of thing that occurs to me when I think of 'building up' others.

Yet inbetween all the public criticisms of Matt and mods, I've never once seen you do any of the above. On the contrary, when Dr Ach was hollering for Salyan, HC and even Matt to be kicked out of their leadership roles (did he forget that this is a private site that Matt pays for?) you actually *supported* him.

And you say that you don't mean to sow discord, yet when Dr Ach was running around doing hatchet jOBs on folk--John81 by accusing him of not being KJVO and Salyan by doing down her upbringing and church--once again you were supporting him. When HC bans Dr Ach for bad behaviour and you criticise that decision, you in effect endorse all the bad behaviour that culminated in him getting banned.

And then for an encore you respond to Salyan telling you not to criticise their efforts so publicly by...er...having a public moan about how they are not replying to all your pms. You even reinforce your point by highlighting a bit of Salyan's text ('By all means, report it or PM us') despite the fact that the very next sentence of Salyan's is a reminder that they can't always reply because of time constraints. Couldn't make it up!

Bless you for all your wonderful day-to-day contributions to this forum--many more than me. You are one of the regular posters that keeps the forum alive. But boy do you mistake building up for sticking the boot in.

Well, if they are gracious to keep me on OB, then they are keeping others on OB who whine as well.  And, those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people, daily.

Dr. Ach is a Jew like myself.  My ancestral roots have been proven.  I am also Black Irish (which is Hispanic Irish).  I may not use sarcasm like you do, Al.  I just get to the point.  I have never been know to beat around the bush.   Having a temper, from now and then is not a bad thing at all.  It is better than people who sit like bumps on a log, and do nothing.  I believe Charles Spurgeon said something to this effect.  Let me see if I can find his quote.

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Are you seriously going to follow him down his rabbit trail and away from the OP?
He doesn't like the subject and is trying to lead it away.
Go right ahead and feast at his table - but it is a red herring and I just don't like his oily fish........

My issue with Linda's post was her allegory/ literal translation of Scripture. I have never heard it read in Covenant theology that the church was visible or in anyway in the OT. If anyone believes that they are wrong. Edited by Jeffrey
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Spurgeon's quote has to do with anger.  The Bible specifically says, "be angry and sin not."  My anger is in hopes to get this site back to where it once was, years ago, when I used to learn a lot.  Other's use sarcasm, like yourself, which belittles people.  I ask, what's the difference?

"A vigorous temper is not altogether an evil. Men who are easy as an old shoe are generally of little worth." ~ Charles Spurgeon 

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Well, if they are gracious to keep me on OB, then they are keeping others on OB who whine as well.  And, those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people, daily.

Dr. Ach is a Jew like myself.  My ancestral roots have been proven.  I am also Black Irish (which is Hispanic Irish).  I may not use sarcasm like you do, Al.  I just get to the point.  I have never been know to beat around the bush.   Having a temper, from now and then is not a bad thing at all.  It is better than people who sit like bumps on a log, and do nothing.  I believe Charles Spurgeon said something to this effect.  Let me see if I can find his quote.

 

Well I don't know who you're talking about when you say they are gracious to those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people daily, because you beat around the bush by not naming names. If you're referring to me, my response is that I don't think I was sarcastic toward you at all in that post I just wrote, and as for belittling people daily I do tend to criticise TGL for his behaviour towards me and others, though not frequently, so fair comment I guess.

 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners. Good for you if you know your roots; I don't know mine.

 

And whining and having a bad temper (your word--I've not noticed it) is not the same as doing something. HC and Salyan and the other mods are the ones who are doing something.

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 My anger is in hopes to get this site back to where it once was, years ago

 

I know and I addressed that point in my first response to you. I don't think publicly slating the mods and the whole site again and again and again while never expressing gratitude and moreover supporting those who say they want the mods and site owner booted will help the site at all.

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Well I don't know who you're talking about when you say they are gracious to those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people daily, because you beat around the bush by not naming names. If you're referring to me, my response is that I don't think I was sarcastic toward you at all in that post I just wrote, and as for belittling people daily I do tend to criticise TGL for his behaviour towards me and others, though not frequently, so fair comment I guess.

 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners. Good for you if you know your roots; I don't know mine.

 

And whining and having a bad temper (your word--I've not noticed it) is not the same as doing something. HC and Salyan and the other mods are the ones who are doing something.

Two members on this site, including you, belittle people with sarcastic comments. Yes, I am talking about your personally sarcastic posts to TGL.  

You don't see the relevance of being being a Jew by blood?  Did you read what the OP said?  It cuts me to the core of my soul to see people, on this site, talk about what the OP stated.  You seriously can't get that?  Not being a Jew, I suppose you wouldn't though.

I will repeat Spurgeon's quote, as you conveniently looked it over.

 "A vigorous temper is not altogether an evil. Men who are easy as an old shoe are generally of little worth." ~ Charles Spurgeon 

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I know and I addressed that point in my first response to you. I don't think publicly slating the mods and the whole site again and again and again while never expressing gratitude and moreover supporting those who say they want the mods and site owner booted will help the site at all.

 

You have no clue as to the gratitude I have expressed to LuAnne in our private messages.  End of story!

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You don't see the relevance of being being a Jew by blood?  Did you read what the OP said?  It cuts me to the core of my soul to see people, on this site, talk about what the OP stated.  You seriously can't get that?  Not being a Jew, I suppose you wouldn't though.

 
I'll let the rest slide because Salyan's asked us to, but gotta respond to this bit. I wasn't talking about the OP when I said I don't see the relevance of you being a Jew, I was talking about the conservation you and me have just been having. Here's what I said again:
 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners.

 

Edited by Alimantado
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My issue with Linda's post was her allegory/ literal translation of Scripture. I have never heard it read in Covenant theology that the church was visible or in anyway in the OT. If anyone believes that they are wrong.

I would have to say that either you have not read any of the Systematic Theology books of any Covenant theologians or if you have read any of them, you believe these Covenant theologians to be incorrect.

 

Here's a cuple of quotes from Covenant theologian Louis Berkhof in his book, Systematic Theology (second revised and enlarged edition; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1941), p. 293, 571:

 

"The establishment of the covenant with Abraham marked the beginning of an institutional Church". 

"The Church existed in the old dispensation as well as in the new, and was essentially the same in both."

 

Covenant theologian Charles Hodge also believed that the Church existed in the OT:

 

"The Church under the New Dispensation is identical with that under the Old.  It is not a new Church but one and the same.  It is the same olive olive tree (Rom. 11:16-17).  It is founded on the same covenant made with Abraham." (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968, 3:549).

Edited by LindaR
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I would have to say that either you have not read any of the Systematic Theology books of any Covenant theologians or if you have read any of them, you believe these Covenant theologians to be incorrect.
 
Here's a cuple of quotes from Covenant theologian Louis Berkhof in his book, Systematic Theology (second revised and enlarged edition; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1941), p. 293, 571:
 
"The establishment of the covenant with Abraham marked the beginning of an institutional Church". 
"The Church existed in the old dispensation as well as in the new, and was essentially the same in both."
 
Covenant theologian Charles Hodge also believed that the Church existed in the OT:
 
"The Church under the New Dispensation is identical with that under the Old.  It is not a new Church but one and the same.  It is the same olive olive tree (Rom. 11:16-17).  It is founded on the same covenant made with Abraham." (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968, 3:549).


Thanks for the info: I still don't agree with that! The OT believers were "saved" because of their belief of the promise and are part if the body of Christ with all other believers, but I don't believe the church wasn't instituted until the NT
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Are you seriously going to follow him down his rabbit trail and away from the OP?

He doesn't like the subject and is trying to lead it away.

Go right ahead and feast at his table - but it is a red herring and I just don't like his oily fish........

Not following them, in fact, just the opposite, trying to sqelch the argument before it gets further from the OP.

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