Which Comes First, The Messiah Or The Temple? - The Temple Institute

[beameup]

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

Now those who say that this has already happened are Preterists, which is a "bedfellow" of Replacement Theology.

 

A little leaven leveneth the whole lump.  Galatians 5:9

[Genevanpreacher]

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

Now those who say that this has already happened are Preterists, which is a "bedfellow" of Replacement Theology.

 

I am partial preterist. And I thank you need to use a better phrase than one that brings reproach with a 'sexual innuendo'.

[ThePilgrim]

I am partial preterist. And I thank you need to use a better phrase than one that brings reproach with a 'sexual innuendo'.

I think you misconstrued the meaning of bedfellow.

bed·fel·low noun -ˌfe-(ˌ)lō

: a person or thing that is associated or connected with another

 

Full Definition of BEDFELLOW

1

:  one who shares a bed with another

2

:  associate, ally <political bedfellows>

See bedfellow defined for English-language learners »

See bedfellow defined for kids »

Examples of BEDFELLOW

1. <a child-welfare cause that has made bedfellows of activists who are normally on opposite ends of the political spectrum>

First Known Use of BEDFELLOW

15th century

Related to BEDFELLOW Synonyms abettor (also abetter), backer, ally, confederate, fellow traveler, supporter, sympathizer Related Words empathizer, well-wisher; accessory (also accessary), accomplice, coalitionist, collaborationist, collaborator; adjunct, assistant, coadjutor, helper; associate, cohort, colleague, fellow, partner; buddy, chum, companion, comrade, confidant, crony, familiar, friend, intimate, mate,   God bless, Larry

[Genevanpreacher]

In our day it is a rude sounding phrase, esp with sodomites running rampant.

This is also not just my opinion, others have related this to me about people on here using that term.

[ThePilgrim]

In our day it is a rude sounding phrase, esp with sodomites running rampant.

This is also not just my opinion, others have related this to me about people on here using that term.

Maybe it's just my age, but I have never thought of it in those terms. 
 

 

God bless,

Larry

[Salyan]

I agree with Pilgrim; it's a perfectly good figure of speech, with no intrinsic innuendo. However, if it does cause offense, then let's try not to use it.

[candlelight]

Pilgrim did give the correct definition of "bedfellow."  I am 50, and I have always associated it with that definition.

Once again, because of political correctness, we have to watch a word like that too.  Soon, we will be silenced into saying nothing, for fear that we will offend someone in this world.  How pathetic our world is.

[Covenanter]

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

Now those who say that this has already happened are Preterists, which is a "bedfellow" of Replacement Theology.

 

A little leaven leveneth the whole lump.  Galatians 5:9

Surely the question is not, "what label should we stick on people who disagree, but, how should we understand the Scriptures we disagree about?"

 

Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, with great detail about the circumstances. He even gave warning signs so that Christians could flee the city before that destruction. E.g. Luke 21. History records that they fled to safety 3 1/2 years before the AD 70 destruction. 

 

The Thessalonians letters were written around ad 50, 20 years before the destruction. The Apostles knew they were living in the last days. See Hebrews 1:1-2 The implication of 2 Thessalonians 2 is that Jesus' prophecy concerning the temple had to be fulfilled before the events of chapter 1, which are clearly final. 

 

Interpreting 2T2 in terms of ad 70 and the machinations of the final Jewish rebellion against Rome is another question. The actual events are prophesied but not recorded in Scripture.

 

Back to the OP, Messiah has come, finished his saving work, is building his NC temple with living stones, and will come again in glory, for resurrection and judgment. The question is a rejection of Jesus, Messiah.

[Invicta]

Surely the question is not, "what label should we stick on people who disagree, but, how should we understand the Scriptures we disagree about?"

 

Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple, with great detail about the circumstances. He even gave warning signs so that Christians could flee the city before that destruction. E.g. Luke 21. History records that they fled to safety 3 1/2 years before the AD 70 destruction. 

 

The Thessalonians letters were written around ad 50, 20 years before the destruction. The Apostles knew they were living in the last days. See Hebrews 1:1-2 The implication of 2 Thessalonians 2 is that Jesus' prophecy concerning the temple had to be fulfilled before the events of chapter 1, which are clearly final. 

 

Interpreting 2T2 in terms of ad 70 and the machinations of the final Jewish rebellion against Rome is another question. The actual events are prophesied but not recorded in Scripture.

 

Back to the OP, Messiah has come, finished his saving work, is building his NC temple with living stones, and will come again in glory, for resurrection and judgment. The question is a rejection of Jesus, Messiah.

 

Yes that temple of living stones is the one that Paul had in mind.  The papacy is the one who fulfilled all that.

 

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

The Pope exalts himself over all that is called God, that he does when he is enthroned on the high altar over what they call god,i.e.the consecrated wafer.  The popes have always claimed to be more powerful than Christ.

[beameup]

 

 

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

The Pope exalts himself over all that is called God, that he does when he is enthroned on the high altar over what they call god,i.e.the consecrated wafer.  The popes have always claimed to be more powerful than Christ.

2 Thes 2:8-9 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy

with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Clearly this is not "the Pope".  This is the False Christ that deceives the whole world (except the "elect") during the Great Tribulation.

 

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,

that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  2 Thes 2:10-11

[Covenanter]

Yes that temple of living stones is the one that Paul had in mind.  The papacy is the one who fulfilled all that.

 

Who opposeth and exalteth  himself above all that is called God or worshiped as God

so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:4

 

The Pope exalts himself over all that is called God, that he does when he is enthroned on the high altar over what they call god,i.e.the consecrated wafer.  The popes have always claimed to be more powerful than Christ.

That true spiritual temple can NEVER be occupied by a usurper.

2 Cor. 6:¹⁴ Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? ¹⁵ and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ¹⁶ and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ¹⁷ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, ¹⁸ and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

The persecuted believers were not in the RCC, nor were the RCC leaders built into the the temple of the living God. While most references in the NT are to the true spiritual temple built with believers, the Jerusalem temple is referred to as the temple of God. Mat. 21:12. Bearing in mind that the Jerusalem temple was still standing, & was the centre for Jewish worship, and still used by Christians, I don't think you have a case. No. Paul was referring to Jesus Olivet prophecy of the destruction. As was John when writing about the antichrist.

1 John 2:¹⁸ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. ¹⁹ They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ²⁰ But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. ²¹ I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[Invicta]

That true spiritual temple can NEVER be occupied by a usurper.

2 Cor. 6:¹⁴ Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? ¹⁵ and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ¹⁶ and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ¹⁷ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, ¹⁸ and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

The persecuted believers were not in the RCC, nor were the RCC leaders built into the the temple of the living God. While most references in the NT are to the true spiritual temple built with believers, the Jerusalem temple is referred to as the temple of God. Mat. 21:12. Bearing in mind that the Jerusalem temple was still standing, & was the centre for Jewish worship, and still used by Christians, I don't think you have a case. No. Paul was referring to Jesus Olivet prophecy of the destruction. As was John when writing about the antichrist.

1 John 2:¹⁸ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. ¹⁹ They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. ²⁰ But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. ²¹ I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

The early bishops of Rome were true Christians. Two of the first three were colleagues of Paul.

 

  2Tim 4:21  Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren. 

 

Eusebius says that Linus was installed as (the first) Bishop by the apostles.  

 

2Ti 4:21  Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.

 

Clement was the third.  Paul had no doubt about him.

 

At some stage the temple got corrupted.

 

The persecuted believers were not in the RCC,

 

 

Some were, such as Claude of Turin, Jan Hus, and others, if only loosely.  That continued until Luther excommunicated the popes and all RCs.

[Invicta]

 

2 Thes 2:8-9 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy

with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Clearly this is not "the Pope".  This is the False Christ that deceives the whole world (except the "elect") during the Great Tribulation.

 

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,

that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  2 Thes 2:10-11

 

 

When the saints are raised, That will be the last day.

John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

The last day is also judgment day.

 

John 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Paul says similarlrly.

 

1 Corr. 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

That is clear.  After those  that are Christ’s are raised at his coming, then come the end.

 

You will have to look earlier for you great tribulation.  Try the great tribulation on the Jews during the rebellion in AD 66-70 and the great tribulation on the church under that papacy that lasted centuries, not 3½ years.

 

 

.

 

 

n

[LindaR]

There will be a third (Tribulation) temple built in Jerusalem.  At the present time, there are two groups of Orthodox Jews, the Temple Institute (founded in 1986 with the OBjective of seeing Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem) and the Temple Mount Faithful (established in the late 1960s to rebuild the temple), who are just about finished with the plans and I believe this temple will be built before the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church age saints. It will be ready by the time the "son of perdition"/AC signs that 7 year "covenant" (promising a false "peace") with the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:27).

 

Here is an excerpt from a series in Israel's Messenger (Shadows of the Tribulation), Summer, 2014 edition.  The topic....the rebuilding of the third (Tribulation) temple in Jerusalem.

 

Shadows of the Tribulation (Israel’s Messenger, Summer, 2014)

 

By Rev. Mark ROBinson

 

One of the intriguing developments in the Jewish world is the ongoing preparations for rebuilding the Temple and the institution of Temple sacrifice and worship. This column has reported on this in the past and will continue to update events regarding the Temple.

 

This past Passover saw a number of important events take place. The following is a fascinating insight into the progress of rebuilding the Temple and starting sacrificial worship.  “On April 10, 2014 at 5 p.m., hundreds of Jews will gather at the Maimonides rabbinical institution plaza in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood in Jerusalem and start learning the Jewish laws of Passover.

 

Rabbis and experts, including Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, the head of the Temple Institute in the Old City of Jerusalem, the leading body preparing for the establishment of the third temple, will teach the audience the laws of the Passover sacrifice. Alongside Ariel, the ritual slaughterer (shohet) Rabbi Yehudah Giatt will teach the audience about the unique elements of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifice. After the lessons, the real thing will start: the simulation of the Passover sacrifice.”

 

“This isn’t the first time that the “Association of Temple Organizations” will hold this activity, but this year the practice drill and re-enactment of the Passover sacrifice will be carried out by the students of the school for priests, Nezer Ha-kodesh, which started operating this year. The priest school intends to train the hundreds of priests that would be needed to work at the third temple; many Jews endeavor for its establishment in Israel today....”

 

“Everything is ready, then, except two additional, small matters. The easy one, you’d be surprised, is the Ark of the Covenant. ‘The Second Temple didn’t have an ark, either,’ Arnon Segel [a journalist who devotedly follows the preparations for the establishment of the temple] reminds me, and Rabbi Yehoshua Friedman [director of the school for training priests] adds, ‘There are 10 studies about the location of the Ark of the Covenant. We read them and studied all of them, and reached the conclusion that the right answer is that it’s buried in the tunnels under the Temple Mount. When the day comes, we will get to it.’

 

“The more prOBlematic issue is the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, which slightly impedes the architectural plans. ‘The temple will not be built through private acts and blowing up mosques,’ emphasizes Segal. ‘That’s not the direction. The direction is changing consciousness. The preparations are mental more than anything.’ One of the people involved in preparations, who requested anonymity, explains, ‘If not for the prOBlem of the Dome of the Rock, they would build the temple today, and the temple would be built there.  The third temple will be built by the government of Israel, not by private individuals. No one will do what shouldn’t be done, like an underground action to blow up the Dome of the Rock. The people who are committed to establishing the temple are normative and rational people, and just like we established the State of Israel, the day will come when we will build the temple, in an orderly, state-sanctioned manner.’” *read complete article at https://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/10-04-14.htm

 

The entire article can be read here: Shadows of the Tribulation

[Covenanter]

I have no prOBlem believing that the Israelis will build another temple, and will sacrifice animals. That will be a continued rejection of their Messiah, Jesus. Why no reply to my post #15 ? What did the Jews do when they had a temple? Stephen's quote of Isaiah 66, & the conclusion the Holy Spirit inspired is relevant today:

 

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
² For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord:
but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

³ He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck;
he that offereth an OBlation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol.
Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

 

Acts 7:⁴⁸ Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

⁴⁹ Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? ⁵⁰ Hath not my hand made all these things?

⁵¹ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. ⁵² Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: ⁵³ who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 

While they persist in rejecting their Messiah, Peter's quotation of Moses' prophesy is relevant:

Acts 3:²² For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. ²³ And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. ²⁴ Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. ²⁵ Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. ²⁶ Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

Now, I do not believe in a continuing punishment of Israeli people - that destruction was completed in ad 70, but I do believe the Gospel, & that the command to all mankind to repent stands, and will stand until Jesus returns for resurrection & judgement. The Israelis/Hebrews/Jews have not got a separate covenant, nor a separate way of salvation.

 

Acts 4:⁸ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, ⁹ if we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; ¹⁰ be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. ¹¹ This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. ¹² Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

26:¹⁴ And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. ¹⁵ And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. ¹⁶ But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; ¹⁷ delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, ¹⁸ to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

¹⁹ Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disOBedient unto the heavenly vision: ²⁰ but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. ²¹ For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. ²² Having therefore OBtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: ²³ that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

Jesus has come, and fulfilled prophecy. What purpose will a new temple have in the purposes of God? Ezekiel's vision, complete with offerings/sacrifices for sin, cannot refer to a yet future renewed sacrificial system acceptable to God.

 

Heb. 10:¹¹ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: ¹² but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ¹³ from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. ¹⁴ For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ¹⁵ Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, ¹⁶ This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; ¹⁷ and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. ¹⁸ Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.