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Dr James Ach

Dorightchristians - King James Onlyism Before Peter Ruckman

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CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a prOBlem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

 

That's alright if you have a prOBlem with Ruckman and Gipp, Jeffrey.  Lots of people in the JKVO camp do, as well.

Augustine came out of the RCC and is a heretic.  If you would like to no more about his teachings, please let me know as you are aware that I was a former RC.

I see no prOBlem with owning various Bibles, if you want to compare them to one another, however, if you believe in the "Rapture" then I wouldn't have them around the house, for others to use after the "catching away" of born again believers occur.  While the Great Tribulation will be a time for the Jews, there will still be Tribulation saints, as well.  I wouldn't leave MV's in my house, but that is just me.

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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

http://av1611.com/KJBp/charts/themagicmarker.html

ill leave that for you, although I'm sure you've seen it already. Ill stick with the KJB.

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LuAnne said:

"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."

___________________

 

Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.

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you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

 

Jeffrey, I know that I've been antagonistic toward you, but I hope that you will believe me when I say that I'm writing this without any antagonism whatsoever.

 

You do understand that the other versions are translated from entirely different manuscripts than the King James is translated from, don't you. That's why "me" is missing in that verse, and that's why there are so many other discrepancies when comparing new versions to the King James. The underlying manuscripts are different.

 

If you believe that all translations have their issues, then how can you believe that we have God's word today? If they all have their issues, how do you know what to believe? Why are you even a Christian if you can't trust that what's written in the Bible is true? How can you trust any part that's written if you believe they all have issues; how do you know that the parts that you feel don't have issues just haven't been shown to be issues yet?

 

Luanne, seriously, do you see the mistake in the KJV compared ti the other translations? I'll let you look at it before I point it out

 

Here, you attribute a missing word as a mistake, because it's not in the other versions. Again, the underlying manuscripts that the King James is translated from doesn't have it; therefore, it's not a mistake. The prOBlem is, which stream of manuscripts are you relying on? Are you relying on the stream of manuscripts that were hidden away by false religious systems for hundreds of years until two men (who didn't even believe the Bible was God's inspired word) used them to make a new Greek text? Two men who didn't hold to basic foundational doctrines of Christianity? Or, are you going to rely on the stream of manuscripts that were the basis for all Bibles (outside of false religious systems) prior to and including the King James...the manuscripts that true Christianity accepted as the word of God.

 

I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)

 

I actually wondered if that's where you got the comment for your signature from.  There's a lot in the King James translator's preface that makes me cringe. But unlike Westcott and Hort, they gave us a formal equivalence translation from the accepted manuscripts. Just because Augustine (who was a heretic as candlelight pointed out) thought comparing translations was good (as did the King James translators), that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I had determined not to respond to you anymore because of your doctrine; however, I felt compelled to respond to this.

 

I don't mean this harshly, but by your own admission, you believe that we don't have God's preserved and inspired word today since all translations have their issues; therefore, I can't (in good conscience) converse with someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe God...I'm commanded in God's word to avoid you; therefore, that's what I must do...

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The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.

 

People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

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People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

^this^

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LuAnne said:"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."
___________________

 
Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.

Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.

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Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.

 

There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

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There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.

Yeah, that doesn't seem very cool. Bringing in  people to speak at the pulpit who don't believe isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

 

  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

The reason the Muslims believe this is that, is because a true Muslim has to learn Arabic to "properly learn Islam"( told to me from a Muslim). you can read a Koran in English, but then, it is not a true Koran. you must read it in Arabic.( that comment makes me think of Sam Gipp's comment)

Our Scripture is in different languages and translation because our own language has transformed through the years. the word gay is a good example. If somebody was happy when I was a child, they were in a gay mood. If i was to say that today, I would prOBably get asked out by a fellow co-worker.

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I've had many encounters with Muslims who denounce Christianity as not having a holy book that Christians agree upon. They are quick to point out the many differences between the wide variety of versions as their proof Christianity follows men, not God.

 

Every Koran I've seen has English (or another language) on one page and the original Arabic on the opposite. Islamic teaching is specific that the Arabic Koran is perfect, the absolute word of their god. If there is any difference between the Arabic Koran and any translation their teaching is clear that the Arabic is absolute and the translation in error.

 

Whenever I've dealt with Muslims in a real exchange I've always insisted that the KJB is the Word of God and that I don't consult or read any of the "versions" they want to toss out. The Muslims I've dealt with respect that and we've conducted our discussion on that foundation.

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I've had many encounters with Muslims who denounce Christianity as not having a holy book that Christians agree upon. They are quick to point out the many differences between the wide variety of versions as their proof Christianity follows men, not God.

because we don't read it in the original languages, Greek, Hebrew, has been the complaint of the Muslims I dealt with. so regardless if you hold to a KJV position with them it doesn't resonate with them.

 

 

The Muslims I've dealt with respect that and we've conducted our discussion on that foundation.

The times i have witnessed to Muslims, they seem to have an issue to who Jesus is, and it never has turned out well. It never focused on what translations as such as to why they fail to see God incarnate as Jesus.They also seem to struggle with thr grace based aspect of salvation and have a heavy works based salvation. 

 All my opportunities with Muslims have never been peaceful and actually, the last time I witnessed to a man named Adbed(?), if I wasnt twice his size, I really think he would have come after me. Reading his body language, balled fists, gritting teeth, I really thought it was going to get physical.

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So far the Muslims I've dealt with have accepted that since I believe the KJB to be God's Holy Word in English and confine myself to quoting from and citing what's in the KJB, they are willing to respect that I believe that is truly our (Christianity) Holy Book in English.

 

Most of my encounters with Muslims have been fairly civil, a few were more tense, and in one instance a young Muslim was very angry and wanted to get aggressive and I do believe if the older Muslim, who was of a more reasonable nature, hadn't been there, the young Muslim would have sought to silence me with his fists.

 

The bulk of my experience with Muslims was in the 90s. I have noticed a trend that more Muslims today seem defensive and quick to take offense and become angry and potentially violent than they did back then. It seems the larger the local Muslim population, the more antagonistic and aggressive the Muslims are.

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The Muslim OBjection predates the modern versions. The many Greek manuscripts even of the Received Text have small variations. Erasmus did his best. 

 

The idea that there is one perfect original Koran is fiction - nothing was written by Mohammed - he recited what he claimed he received & his followers remembered, more or less. Various followers wrote what they remembered. After his death they put it in order trying to agree on what was authentic. The Caliph then took a set of Surahs that he declared were authentic & made sure all other versions were destroyed.

 

And memorizing & reciting it in Arabic is more important than understanding it - you can't really live by its teaching.

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People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

 

Agreed but yet still not the point.

 

The point is no one would know of the Gospel to speak it to these people you mention without the written Word of God. All faith in the last 2000 years begins, grows, is sustained and ends with it. So your faith in the Word as complete and perfect makes sense to anyone reasonable when you consider that without it, you have nothing.

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Agreed but yet still not the point.

 

The point is no one would know of the Gospel to speak it to these people you mention without the written Word of God. All faith in the last 2000 years begins, grows, is sustained and ends with it. So your faith in the Word as complete and perfect makes sense to anyone reasonable when you consider that without it, you have nothing.

The Holy Spirit is the saving agent that uses the Scriptures, but without the Holy Spirit, it's all for naught.

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Yeah, that doesn't seem very cool. Bringing in  people to speak at the pulpit who don't believe isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

 

The reason the Muslims believe this is that, is because a true Muslim has to learn Arabic to "properly learn Islam"( told to me from a Muslim). you can read a Koran in English, but then, it is not a true Koran. you must read it in Arabic.( that comment makes me think of Sam Gipp's comment)

Our Scripture is in different languages and translation because our own language has transformed through the years. the word gay is a good example. If somebody was happy when I was a child, they were in a gay mood. If i was to say that today, I would prOBably get asked out by a fellow co-worker.

 

Right.  Hmmm.  I have never heard a Muslim say that before.   

Your comment about our language being transformed through the years reminds me of Darwin.  You see our Bible as evolving, which I don't.  You have heard it said that God's word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  I don't accept MV's, b/c they are very watered down.  You even said so with the word, gay.  The world has transformed that word from sodomite to gay.  Our language is very dumbed down, and keeps heading that way.  Our Bible has been dumbed down to fit the world.  God isn't supposed to fit the world.      

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Right. Hmmm. I have never heard a Muslim say that before.
Your comment about our language being transformed through the years reminds me of Darwin. You see our Bible as evolving, which I don't. You have heard it said that God's word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I don't accept MV's, b/c they are very watered down. You even said so with the word, gay. The world has transformed that word from sodomite to gay. Our language is very dumbed down, and keeps heading that way. Our Bible has been dumbed down to fit the world. God isn't supposed to fit the world.

Right. Hmmm. I have never heard a Muslim say that before.
Your comment about our language being transformed through the years reminds me of Darwin. You see our Bible as evolving, which I don't. You have heard it said that God's word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I don't accept MV's, b/c they are very watered down. You even said so with the word, gay. The world has transformed that word from sodomite to gay. Our language is very dumbed down, and keeps heading that way. Our Bible has been dumbed down to fit the world. God isn't supposed to fit the world.

God's word is the same, yes. But the English language has evolved and changes with time. Slang, saying, all alter during the years, decades and centuries. I wouldn't count the English language as God's chosen language. Edited by Jeffrey

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No, English isn't God's chosen language.  But the language of the  King James has not been improved upon over the years...it is still the most poetic, beautiful version.  And the one which this site stands by as the Word of God for English-speaking people (just a little reminder...).

 

God's Word. Preserved as promised (for English speakers in the KJB). Not double inspired.

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God's word is the same, yes. But the English language has evolved and changes with time. Slang, saying, all alter during the years, decades and centuries. I wouldn't count the English language as God's chosen language.

 

I would certainly agree with you that the English language evolves, Jeffrey.  That is the point I am trying to make.  You are correct.  English isn't God's chosen language.  However, if proper English (which the KJV includes) continues to be dumbed down, then we are in big trouble.  We are already.  It isn't just Muslims that have a prOBlem with Christianity and Modern Versions of the Bible, it is many people who are unsaved.  Do you know the history of Wescott and Hort, with the MV's? 

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After reading Calvin and Matthew Henry, all was written before 1611, none of those books, especially Henry's book, written in English, was in the Victorian style of literature.
Just thought of this, Calvin wrote Institutes in Latin, but Henry's work still stands.

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After reading Calvin and Matthew Henry, all was written before 1611, none of those books, especially Henry's book, written in English, was in the Victorian style of literature.
Just thought of this, Calvin wrote Institutes in Latin, but Henry's work still stands.

 

You didn't answer my question, Jeffrey.  You turned this conversation into Calvinism.  Once again, "Have you ever read about Wescott and Hort."

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Never read Wescott and Hort, I don't care what Muslims think, we have the truth.
What does this mean?
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.?

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And I'm not bring up "Calvinism", I used him as an example. Why are you so afraid of something if you don't agree with it? If you have the truth, them you have nothing to fear!

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Never read Wescott and Hort, I don't care what Muslims think, we have the truth.
What does this mean?
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.?

 

I would suggest that you read the works of these men regarding the Modern Versions, Jeffrey.  And, Muslims are God's creation. They need the gospel just like anyone else.  MV's are the main reason that they vehemently have a prOBlem with Christianity.  When I witness to them, I always use the KJV.  However, b/c they are blind, like all lost people, they can't see the truth b/c they are being witnessed to be Christians who use MV's.  Do you see the confusion?  You know who the author of confusion is.  I know I don't have to tell you that.

 

 

And I'm not bring up "Calvinism", I used him as an example. Why are you so afraid of something if you don't agree with it? If you have the truth, them you have nothing to fear!

 

It seems like Calvinism is always used as an example on OB.  LOL!  I am not afraid of something that I don't agree with, brother.  Yes, I have the truth, in the KJV, and I am ever so grateful that God directed me toward's His perfect word.    However, I do think that you should know where the Modern Versions of the Bible started.  That is all.    

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