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Dorightchristians - King James Onlyism Before Peter Ruckman


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Dr. Elisha Weismann Contrary to critics like James White, Rick Norris, Fred Butler, JD Hall, Doug Cutelick, and all modern professional liars, the King James Only view did not begin with Peter Ruckman, Ruckman was merely instrumental in causing professing Baptists to quit riding the fence on the issue. Thomas Morris posted the following quote […]b.gif?host=dorightchristians.wordpress.c

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All of this "prove this" and "prove that"...or..."show me chapter and verse" doesn't amount to anything except what one chooses to believe regardless of "the proof".   Earlier, the statement was mad

What a seriously flawed statement. In order for our English Bible to be "better than the original Hebrew and Greek" that would mean somehow the originals God directly inspired were inferior.   There

I have reported Jeffery but none of the mods have messaged me back. I am very close to leaving this forum for a while unless something is done about the anti Israel, anti King James and pro Calvinist

From the article:  … the Authorized Translation of the Bible, which appeared in 1611…our English translation is even better than the original Hebrew and Greek. There is only one way to explain this…I am confident that the Authorized Version was inspired.  

 

Is this what is known as secondary inspiration?

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What a seriously flawed statement. In order for our English Bible to be "better than the original Hebrew and Greek" that would mean somehow the originals God directly inspired were inferior.

 

There are some who lift the KJB up to the point of an idol with their false ideas and over exalting of it somehow rising above the original, directly, divinely inspired Scripture.

 

I believe the KJB is the true Word of God as were the originals and the faithful copies which followed.

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I was KJB before Ruckman became known outside his home area.  It's been the Bible I used since childhood (except for one year in school: the teacher gave us all Good News for Modern Man.  We called it Bad News for Modern Apes - hated it) and still use today.  And I didn't need a man (who doesn't belong in the pulpit, IMO) to tell me so.  :wink

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I've been KJB since the Holy Ghost "told me" to use the KJB. It wasn't until after that before I ever even heard of anyone being KJO. It wasn't until I joined this board that I ever heard of Ruckman.

 

I don't like any of the paraphrase "Bibles" (which I don't really consider to be actual Bibles because they are some man's idea of taking God's Word and then putting His Word into the man's own choice of wording as if he could do a better jOB than God! All the while, these paraphrases which are not backed by any scholarship or peer review for accuracy, are tainted and sometimes outright tarnished with the leanings and preferences of how the paraphraser would like things to read.

 

I've never been able to understand why the NIV ever became so popular. That's one of the worst versions I've encountered. I've read books or articles where the author uses the NIV and I will read the passage from the NIV in the book and then go "huh?". Then I look it up in my KJB to find out what the verse or passage actually says and means.

 

I'm thankful God Himself directed me to the KJB.

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I was KJB before Ruckman became known outside his home area.  It's been the Bible I used since childhood (except for one year in school: the teacher gave us all Good News for Modern Man.  We called it Bad News for Modern Apes - hated it) and still use today.  And I didn't need a man (who doesn't belong in the pulpit, IMO) to tell me so.  :wink

 

HC, is this because of Ruckman's many marriages.  Some of them after he was saved?

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From the article:  … the Authorized Translation of the Bible, which appeared in 1611…our English translation is even better than the original Hebrew and Greek. There is only one way to explain this…I am confident that the Authorized Version was inspired.  
 
Is this what is known as secondary inspiration?


Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues
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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

Heh. I would say that the Watch Tower Society agrees with the KJB, not the other way around...especially since the KJB came first.  :clapping:

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Heh. I would say that the Watch Tower Society agrees with the KJB, not the other way around...especially since the KJB came first.  :clapping:


Luanne, seriously, do you see the mistake in the KJV compared ti the other translations? I'll let you look at it before I point it out
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Luanne, seriously, do you see the mistake in the KJV compared ti the other translations? I'll let you look at it before I point it out

I presume that you are prOBably referencing the fact that "me" isn't in there.  If so, I don't accept that it's a mistake.  Reading the context plainly points out whom we are to ask...

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I presume that you are prOBably referencing the fact that "me" isn't in there.  If so, I don't accept that it's a mistake.  Reading the context plainly points out whom we are to ask...

but you can say that when we pray to God and not Jesus, that God will hear us, Rather that we do pray to Jesus in Heaven and Jesus will answer. It more proves Christ's divinity.
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That's an interesting point.

 

Interestingly enough, by not using "me", though, it proves His divinity because He says He will answer.  And only God answers, right?  

 

It needs to be taken in context of the whole chapter - and other verses on prayer.  Watchtower is just like any other cult - take a verse here or there to "prove" what they believe.  As you well know, even some Christians do that.  But we aren't supposed to. Scripture dovetails and there are so many passages on prayer that, when taken together, we know that we are to pray to the Father through the Son - and God will answer.

 

I realize that cults can lead people astray by using one verse in a certain manner (heh - as do too many Christians today, too!) but that doesn't negate the truth of the KJB (and I know you didn't say that...).   :icon_smile:

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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

 
Jeffrey, what "originals" are you talking about?  There are no originals with the KJV.  The Old Testament of the KJV comes from the Hebrew Masoretic Text (which in Hebrew, is flawless).  The New Testament of the KJV comes from the Textus Receptus (TR), not the corrupted Alexandrian Texts.  All Modern Versions come from the Alexandrian Texts.

So, now we are back to talking about the validity of the KJV on a KJVO forum?  I thought those days were gone.   :puzzled3:  I will say it again.  This reminds me of the days of Kevin Miller, and "His Purpose Driven Life" book by Rick Warren.  And, we can all see how that one turned out.  Chrislam?  Seriously, Jeffrey? 

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Jeffrey, what "originals" are you talking about?  There are no originals with the KJV.  The Old Testament of the KJV comes from the Hebrew Masoretic Text (which in Hebrew, is flawless).  The New Testament of the KJV comes from the Textus Receptus (TR), not the corrupted Alexandrian Texts.  All Modern Versions come from the Alexandrian Texts.

So, now we are back to talking about the validity of the KJV on a KJVO forum?  I thought those days were gone.   :puzzled3:  I will say it again.  This reminds me of the days of Kevin Miller, and "His Purpose Driven Life" book by Rick Warren.  And, we can all see how that one turned out.  Chrislam?  Seriously, Jeffrey? 

candle, there will always be people who question everything we believe - even whether or not the KJB is THE scripture for English speaking people.  

 

But, to be honest, Jeffery has a point (in the statement about some people correcting the originals).  There are people out there (and on here!) who believe that the KJB corrects the Greek, thus rendering the Textus Receptus to be inferior (whether they want to think so or not) to the KJB and allowing them to correct the Receptus by "reading between the lines" - which brings about some pretty strange teachings!

 

We learn oftentimes by discussing. If Jeffery begins to bash the KJB he'll be stopped, rest assured (I realize he said there was a mistake in John 14:14, but that is what we're discussing...and it won't go any further.  :icon_smile: )

 

I don't get your reference to Crislam, though...

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candle, there will always be people who question everything we believe - even whether or not the KJB is THE scripture for English speaking people.  

 

But, to be honest, Jeffery has a point (in the statement about some people correcting the originals).  There are people out there (and on here!) who believe that the KJB corrects the Greek, thus rendering the Textus Receptus to be inferior (whether they want to think so or not) to the KJB and allowing them to correct the Receptus by "reading between the lines" - which brings about some pretty strange teachings!

 

We learn oftentimes by discussing. If Jeffery begins to bash the KJB he'll be stopped, rest assured (I realize he said there was a mistake in John 14:14, but that is what we're discussing...and it won't go any further.  :icon_smile: )

 

I don't get your reference to Crislam, though...

 

Yes, I know HC.  I meet them on Facebook all the time.  That is the main reason why I am not posting on there, as much.  I forgot to say that the KJV is for the English speaking people.  Thanks for saying that.

Yes, he does have a point.  I do see some of the strange teachings, when people "read between the lines" from IFB's, as well.  Please correct me if I ever do that.  I am still learning, and I do appreciate your knowledge... as you have been IFB longer than me.

Jeffrey and I are on good terms.  He is my brother in Christ.  I just wish he would go back to the IFB.  He is very strong, and I believe the IFB needs more people like Jeffrey.  Believe me when I say, if I can go from the RCC straight to the IFB (with a bit charismatic teaching along the way, that assured me of my salvation) then anyone can.   

I must not have read what he said in John 14:14.  Ooops.

Yes, we all need to beware of Chrislam or is it spelled "Crislam?" 

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It appears that some folks on this forum still miss the point of the KJB "correcting" the originals.

 

It doubt anyone (I could be wrong because I don't read anything these folks write anyway) actually believes the 1611 KJB is more accurate than the directly inspired originals provided by God to Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, etc.

 

The missed points are twofold: #1 Noone living has ever seen nor read an "original" text in hebrew or greek. These are copies of copies or rewrites times a multitude from the actual "originals".

 

#2. Noone who thinks they understand the greek to read these copies of copies has any true clue to what the ancient greek meanings actually were. They only have loose guesses of modern greek translations they attempt to apply.

 

It still amazes me to see men quote the "greek copy of copies" with their modern quessicon translations with authority, as if they know they are right- it is sadly laughable to me.

 

The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.

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CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a prOBlem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

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Sorry, wretched - I went to school near PBI and had to deal with a number of the students...AND family members who were taught and believed the double inspiration doctrine.  I know what they say - about reading between the lines and correcting the Greek. False doctrines and some really egregious ideas have come from it.

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CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a prOBlem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

 

That's alright if you have a prOBlem with Ruckman and Gipp, Jeffrey.  Lots of people in the JKVO camp do, as well.

Augustine came out of the RCC and is a heretic.  If you would like to no more about his teachings, please let me know as you are aware that I was a former RC.

I see no prOBlem with owning various Bibles, if you want to compare them to one another, however, if you believe in the "Rapture" then I wouldn't have them around the house, for others to use after the "catching away" of born again believers occur.  While the Great Tribulation will be a time for the Jews, there will still be Tribulation saints, as well.  I wouldn't leave MV's in my house, but that is just me.

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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

http://av1611.com/KJBp/charts/themagicmarker.html

ill leave that for you, although I'm sure you've seen it already. Ill stick with the KJB.

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LuAnne said:

"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."

___________________

 

Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.

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you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

 

Jeffrey, I know that I've been antagonistic toward you, but I hope that you will believe me when I say that I'm writing this without any antagonism whatsoever.

 

You do understand that the other versions are translated from entirely different manuscripts than the King James is translated from, don't you. That's why "me" is missing in that verse, and that's why there are so many other discrepancies when comparing new versions to the King James. The underlying manuscripts are different.

 

If you believe that all translations have their issues, then how can you believe that we have God's word today? If they all have their issues, how do you know what to believe? Why are you even a Christian if you can't trust that what's written in the Bible is true? How can you trust any part that's written if you believe they all have issues; how do you know that the parts that you feel don't have issues just haven't been shown to be issues yet?

 

Luanne, seriously, do you see the mistake in the KJV compared ti the other translations? I'll let you look at it before I point it out

 

Here, you attribute a missing word as a mistake, because it's not in the other versions. Again, the underlying manuscripts that the King James is translated from doesn't have it; therefore, it's not a mistake. The prOBlem is, which stream of manuscripts are you relying on? Are you relying on the stream of manuscripts that were hidden away by false religious systems for hundreds of years until two men (who didn't even believe the Bible was God's inspired word) used them to make a new Greek text? Two men who didn't hold to basic foundational doctrines of Christianity? Or, are you going to rely on the stream of manuscripts that were the basis for all Bibles (outside of false religious systems) prior to and including the King James...the manuscripts that true Christianity accepted as the word of God.

 

I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)

 

I actually wondered if that's where you got the comment for your signature from.  There's a lot in the King James translator's preface that makes me cringe. But unlike Westcott and Hort, they gave us a formal equivalence translation from the accepted manuscripts. Just because Augustine (who was a heretic as candlelight pointed out) thought comparing translations was good (as did the King James translators), that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I had determined not to respond to you anymore because of your doctrine; however, I felt compelled to respond to this.

 

I don't mean this harshly, but by your own admission, you believe that we don't have God's preserved and inspired word today since all translations have their issues; therefore, I can't (in good conscience) converse with someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe God...I'm commanded in God's word to avoid you; therefore, that's what I must do...

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The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.

 

People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

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LuAnne said:"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."
___________________

 
Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.

Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.
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Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.

 

There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

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There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.

Yeah, that doesn't seem very cool. Bringing in  people to speak at the pulpit who don't believe isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

 

  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

The reason the Muslims believe this is that, is because a true Muslim has to learn Arabic to "properly learn Islam"( told to me from a Muslim). you can read a Koran in English, but then, it is not a true Koran. you must read it in Arabic.( that comment makes me think of Sam Gipp's comment)

Our Scripture is in different languages and translation because our own language has transformed through the years. the word gay is a good example. If somebody was happy when I was a child, they were in a gay mood. If i was to say that today, I would prOBably get asked out by a fellow co-worker.

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