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Don't Call This An Independent Baptist Forum

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  • Moderators

Actually, in the past year this has become a place where some of the most doctrinally accurate folks on this board have become the most insufferable boors in their rude behavior toward others. I've been here for almost 7 years - in that time I've seen Calvinists, Catholics and cultists come, push an agenda, and get kicked out; I've seen new evangelicals come and protest our standards and been gently taught a better doctrine, and I've seen disagreements on many issues between the most doctrinally sound folk on the board that are discussed and resolved (or not) amicably. This is the first year I ever remember seeing such antipathy and rudeness toward fellow IFBs and visitors alike.  That is my personal opinion and not a mod statement. The mod perspective is that it becomes really difficult to adequately moderate for people that may be pushing an agenda when we are constantly distracted with having to remind adults how not to behave like children. 

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  • Administrators

Thank you for your input. It is very hard to define Independent anymore. When we started this forum 12 years ago we could say Independent without a prOBlem, now though is seems that the term Independent is broader than it ever has been. James, would you be willing (with others interested) in doing a video handout and in the near future and discussing this issue? I would like to get others input in a video conversation environment instead of posting on forums.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Bro. James Ach,

 

I am sorry you cannot agree with anything that comes out of some of our mouths.

And when some say they are IFB's, maybe they are, yet Independent of your 'type' of view on believing the scriptures.

 

I have been rude, and I regret it.

 

I am new to this and I hope to never have to be 'got on' again.

I shall strive to have a better attitude.

 

I have read quite a few of your previous posts from 2012,

and I wonder what happened to your good-natured responses that you OBviously had back then.

I see a lot of 'conspiracy' type of 'thinking'.

I know there are some truths to conspiracies, yet they lack 'facts', and 'sources'.

You prOBably don't care, but that is what destroyed my previous pastors ministry .

Who by the way, disagreed with me in many points also.

But he always was 'loving' in his discussions with me, and chastised me in peace.

And I learned so much more by not being 'pounded'.

 

A 'bishop' must be 'apt to teach', and 'no striker', and do this with 'all longsuffering, and doctrine'.

 

I hope you receive this in the spirit that I mean it.

 

:godisgood:

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

There is an awful lot of false doctrine being pushed, and some of it quite aggressively.
And it gets excused by those pushing it by them saying that IFB has no standard position. That means that they push whatever they like and still call themselves IFB - which is rubbish.

My biggest thing is that the IFB only area used to be a safe haven to discuss with IFB while the rest of the place allowed anyone to play as long as they were nice.
Over time that has changed. BroMatt can only go on what people say of course, and if people lie to him then what can he do?

But there is no longer an "IFB only" area here.

There should be a fully public area, and a restricted area where truly IFB can discuss IFB only things.

Those that define IFB as loose as some here do should not call themselves IFB and should not be allowed in that area.

But it is an extremely difficult thing to control.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

And you, as a guest, apparently have no prOBlem complaining publicly about said house.


When the house says it is a particular thing, and it used to be that thing, but others come in and change the furniture, the paint, the music, the shows on the TV, and the food they prepare in the kitchen, and no one notices - then it is up to those who love what the house used to be to point those things out.......
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Mark 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

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When the house says it is a particular thing, and it used to be that thing, but others come in and change the furniture, the paint, the music, the shows on the TV, and the food they prepare in the kitchen, and no one notices - then it is up to those who love what the house used to be to point those things out.......

 

Perhaps privately to the owner of the house.  Not publicly.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Perhaps privately to the owner of the house. Not publicly.

I don't disagree with that.

But sometimes someone just needs to be stopped immediately, and if the boss isn't around to see it........ Edited by DaveW
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Thank you for your input. It is very hard to define Independent anymore. When we started this forum 12 years ago we could say Independent without a prOBlem, now though is seems that the term Independent is broader than it ever has been. James, would you be willing (with others interested) in doing a video handout and in the near future and discussing this issue? I would like to get others input in a video conversation environment instead of posting on forums.

I will respond to this in greater length later

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I don't disagree with that.

But sometimes someone just needs to be stopped immediately, and if the boss isn't around to see it........

 

Confronting a threat (to proper doctrine) in another's house is one thing.  Publicly criticizing the owner is another- that would be better done privately.   That's my point.

Edited by Arbo
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And you, as a guest, apparently have no prOBlem complaining publicly about said house.

When the house is open to the public and the heretical nonsense is promoted publicly then yes, it is necessary to say something publicly. If everyone said it privately, you wouldn't see the massive amount of agreement on this same issue among others. That is some of the logic behind Paul's "them that sin rebuke BEFORE ALL that OTHERS MAY FEAR.."

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First you need learn to stop the grandiose usage of over-generalizations. Not agreeing with "anything" you say is neither something you can prove, is that even a reasonable accusations. And I think Dave W covered it so well in here and on his new independent thread that I really can't say it any better than he did.

 

When someone "says" they are IFB, and then those of us who have been here long enough and know what that is see something odd, we question it. Yes, there has been-at Matt pointed-a wide divergent view of what constitutes IFB thanks to many of the IFBs critics, but there are some fundamentals to being IFB that have never been a question:

*King James Only

*Pre-Millennial

*Pretribulation

*Non Calvinist

*Dispensational (which includes the difference between the church and Israel)

 

These 5 above are the MAIN doctrinal issues being stepped on by YOU, Covenanter, Invicta and several others on here. So while there has been "wiggle room" in defining IFB, there has NEVER been wiggle room on the above noted doctrines.

I have already done my research and found you to be a great liar when you first joined this forum with the things you posted initially compared to what you stated on other websites, down to even promoting other modern versions. So don't act like I just picked you at random as somebody to pick on. There are some others on here that I disagree with, but the issues are minor, they know who they are, and we NEVER have these kind of conflicts. There are those I can disagree with and move on, and then there are those who I KNOW are wolves in sheeps clothing trying to disrupt the brethren, and you, sir, are one of them, and I make no apologies for my aggressiveness in pointing that out.

 

And this is not the first time you have alluded to my so-called "conspiracy theories". What is ironic about that is the ONLY people that have ever accused me of that have been James White, Fred Butler (one of White's bootlickers and an employee of John MacArthur at Grace To You) and JD Hall. Considering you keep making that accusation without ever qualifying it or supporting it with facts and evidence, just generalizations, it's pretty OBvious to me who you've been hanging out with outside of this forum.

Being apt to teach requires an audience of those who are teachable, not those trying to subvert the hearers and other members. I have not punched you in the nose. And longsuffering means having patience, it does not mean limitless or an indefinite period of toleration of false doctrine. I'd think that after several years now of putting up with the same people and the same heresies we've all been "longsuffering".

 

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When the house is open to the public and the heretical nonsense is promoted publicly then yes, it is necessary to say something publicly. If everyone said it privately, you wouldn't see the massive amount of agreement on this same issue among others. That is some of the logic behind Paul's "them that sin rebuke BEFORE ALL that OTHERS MAY FEAR.."

 

 

I cannot say that I have OBserved Bro Matt and the other admins/mods promoting heresy.  If you think that they are running things improperly and are guilty because of it, perhaps you should promote your forum site more aggressively.  

 

This site is open to non-IFB Baptists , with provision made for IFBrs-only.  It is too bad that some have prOBlems with that.  

 

It is also too bad that IFB is not formally defined.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

As in any discussion; there must be an acceptable knowledgeable base of the subject being discussed. The term "independent fundamental  baptist" has changed down through the years to the extent that no one knows exactly what it means; or what a IFB believes in. This wasn't the case many years ago; so therefore just call me an Old Fashion Independent

Fundamental Baptist. 

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The prOBlem with a video discussion is that many of us can have no input in such since we don't have the ability to participate. To be clear, I'm not saying video discussions or hangouts shouldn't take place, they sound great for those who can participate, but it would be helpful if there were some way those of us who can't participate could still have a part in such somehow.

 

The "five points" listed above regarding IFBs isn't from long standing teaching. I've read many statements from old time IFBs, as well as more contemporary ones, and at least two, perhaps three of those five points are never mentioned, with the exception of one or two of them showing up in a more recent years.

 

IFBs were originally formed around the fundamentals of the faith, with these five fundamentals being the most common basis of that.

 

1. The virgin birth and deity of Christ.

2. The substitutionary death of Jesus.

3. The resurrection of Jesus Christ.

4. The verbal inspiration of the Scriptures.

5. The second coming of Christ.

 

IFBs have never been a monolithic bloc and aside from them sharing these five points, have always varied somewhat one from another. It's not surprising that over time more differences have come forth and that great divides have become evident and some in these differing "camps" claim theirs is real and others false. With no central authority, not legal standing, no creed or constitution that IFBs must adhere to, who then among IFBs has some perceived authority to declare who is and isn't IFB; which IFBs are acceptable and which are not; or who can even call themselves IFB?

 

There are several IFB churches in this area which have become so much like the evangelical (or worse) churches around that I wish they didn't still call themselves IFB. While they might have grounds to say they are Independent, and even Baptist, they certainly are not Fundamentalist. Yet, like other IFBs, they have changed the definition of what fundamentalist means which allows them to still consider themselves to be fundamentalists.

 

Online Baptist is an internet forum, not a church. While rules and guidelines are necessary, we can't expect OB to attempt to conduct itself as a church. If a strict definition of IFB were established and only those who met the strict definition were allowed to post here, there would be few members, few posts and little to discuss.

 

I can only think of a few people here today that I don't recall someone else telling them they weren't IFB or weren't saved (or even worse), so depending upon whose version of strict IFB standards were adopted, we might see 90% of us kicked out.

 

I'm against the specific promotion of outright false doctrine. That said, there are some who take any view differing from them to be the same as promoting false doctrine when it's actually just a difference of understanding.

 

Regardless of what we think of one or more of them, the editors of the Sword of the Lord were/are all IFBs, yet there are several differences between John R. Rice, Curtis Hutson and Sheldon Smith. I use this only as a simple, easy to see example. By the definition of some, one, two or all three of these men would not be considered IFB and would not be acceptable here. Is that the direction we want OB to go?

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