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Secondly, a consistent Calvinist is not a "soul winner". A consistent Calvinist is a hard determinist. Anytime you hear a challenge against the prOBlems that Calvinism faces with evangelism, you will always hear Calvinists defend it by referring to preachers like Spurgeon and Carey. Such men in THIS AGE would not even be considered real Calvinists by any honest Calvinist theologian (what an oxymoron). Spurgeon because he constantly flip-flopped on the issue of free will and preterition, and Carey because he believed in using "means" in his presentation of the gospel. Even his own mentor told him, “Young man, sit down! Sit down. You are an enthusiast! When God pleases to convert the heathen He will do it without your help or mine!”

 

A true Calvinist does not believe that a person can or even must make a decision to turn to Christ. As such, Calvinism preaches a false gospel and so I would hardly call Calvinists evangelical nor soul winners any more than I would a Jehovah's Witness. There's a huge difference between using your unconfirmed examples of other Calvinist/IFB churches and comparing it to the enormous amounts of documentation that can be found as to what Calvinists believe and teach.

Quotes from Calvin on evangelism:

If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?(from sermon 196 on Deut. 33:18-19; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

…nothing could be more inconsistent with the nature of faith than thatdeadness which would lead a man to disregard his brethren, and to keep the light of knowledge choked up within his own breast. (from commentary on Is. 2:3; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

When we know God to be our Father, should we not desire that he be known as such by all? And if we do not have this passion, that all creatures do him homage, is it not a sign that his glory means little to us?(from sermon 196 onDeut. 33:18-19; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

Since we do not know who belongs to the number of the predestined and who does not, it befits us so to feel as to wish that all be saved. So it will come about that, whoever we come across, we shall study to make him a sharer of peace . . . even severe rebuke will be administered like medicine, lest they should perish or cause others to perish. But it will be for God to make it effective in those whom He foreknew and predestined. (from Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God; taken from the Founders Journal article)

 

there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception….[the Christian's duty is] to be solicitous and to do our endeavor for the salvation of all whom God includes in his calling….[those people insult God] who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation. (from commentary on 1 Tim. 2:4-5; taken from the Founders Journal article)

 
God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. (from commentary on the Synoptic Gospels; taken from the Cork Free Presbyterian Church article)
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Quotes from Calvin on evangelism:

If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?(from sermon 196 on Deut. 33:18-19; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

…nothing could be more inconsistent with the nature of faith than thatdeadness which would lead a man to disregard his brethren, and to keep the light of knowledge choked up within his own breast. (from commentary on Is. 2:3; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

When we know God to be our Father, should we not desire that he be known as such by all? And if we do not have this passion, that all creatures do him homage, is it not a sign that his glory means little to us?(from sermon 196 onDeut. 33:18-19; taken from Ref 21 article)

 

Since we do not know who belongs to the number of the predestined and who does not, it befits us so to feel as to wish that all be saved. So it will come about that, whoever we come across, we shall study to make him a sharer of peace . . . even severe rebuke will be administered like medicine, lest they should perish or cause others to perish. But it will be for God to make it effective in those whom He foreknew and predestined. (from Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God; taken from the Founders Journal article)

 

there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception….[the Christian's duty is] to be solicitous and to do our endeavor for the salvation of all whom God includes in his calling….[those people insult God] who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation. (from commentary on 1 Tim. 2:4-5; taken from the Founders Journal article)

 
God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. (from commentary on the Synoptic Gospels; taken from the Cork Free Presbyterian Church article)

 

I feel you've missed the point, Calvinists will say to evangelize because they are "told to" in scripture. however its a fools errand if all souls are predetermined (hard determinism) thus your saying that God wants us to waste our time... or make sure that He got it right... or has no idea what He is doing...  judging by your own signature you can't even decide what Bible your going to use as authority... it would be quite hard to take your "message of hope" seriously if you don't even know which book to use.

edit: feel free to start a second thread on this if you want to discuss it, I really would like to follow this thread on the OP not on a tangent.

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Only two of the IFB churches around here use the KJB. I only personally know of one Calvinist IFB church, it's a goodly distance from here, but they are the soul winningest, most growing of the IFB churches in the greater area. I know of many more IFBs who don't hold to Dispensationalism than who do hold to it. I didn't encounter any Dispensationalist IFBs until here on OB.

John R. Rice was once one of the most prominent IFBs, and still is very influential, and he wasn't KJO.

Myself, I only use the KJB, I'm not Calvinst, I'm not Dispensationalist, I am IFB.


Rice is a perfect example of one of the most influential IFB in the Movement's history, being unqualified to post in some minds, because of his weakness on the AV.

Ruckman is a KJVo dispy, but his college allows female students to cross-dress. Throw him out.

Hyles was all over the map doctrinally, with glaring faults.
He preached against Dispensational teaching, yet was Pretrib..throw him out.

The bottom line is, anyone who has travelled the IFB circuit, knows that almost every church has some pet doctrinal hang-up.

What's next, no Briders are allowed?

Try to get Cloud and Chappel on the same page...I dare you!

Try Hutson and anyone.

Schaap is right on point, with all 5, anyone want him around?

Dr. BOB Gray was, too.

No matter the truth, some will continue to pretend that only their camp is the real IFB.

Some will pretend that British Baptists weren't largely Calvinist, from Gill to Spurgeon.

Others will claim that Baptists were always Pre-Trib, ignoring that false doctrine's Protestant roots.

I was in an IFB nursery, my second week out of the womb. I have helped to plant 16 IFB churches. I have never been a part of, member of, supporter of, or admirer of any thing other than IFB. I disagree with everyone on this board, about something.

We will all agree, when we serve together in the Millennium...

Anishinaabe

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We will all agree, when we serve together in the Millennium...

Anishinaabe

Then by all means; GO JOIN AN ECUMENICAL FORUM. 

I'll deal with your emotionally laden post later. In a nutshell, all you've done is point out PRACTICES of those who failed to live up to their professions, that has zero to do with what IFB as a whole believe, a fact that I pointed on in the list I gave that nOBody has bothered to refute. What you have done is offered the same kind of experiential rationalizing that charismatics use to prove their beliefs. If you believe this strongly about the IFB-WHY ARE YOU HERE? WHY CAN'T ANY OF YOU THAT I'VE ASKED THAT WHO HAVE BEEN VOCAL ABOUT THE IFB ANSWER THAT??

 

Now let me ask you a simple common sense question: if all of the IFB is just as you state, THEN WHAT WOULD BE AN UNACCEPTABLE LINE TO YOU? You can't answer that and be able defend anything else you've said on this thread. The funny thing is that despite all of the flaws of everyone you mentioned, WE ALL KNOW THEY WERE INDEPENDENT FUNDAMENTAL BAPTISTS. HOW?? How did we and do we know that? What is it about every single one of those names you listed that everyone in the last 100 years recognized as an independent fundamental Baptist as opposed to a charismatic, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Catholic, Calvinist/Reformer?? You can't and WON'T answer that one either without playing semantics with subcategorized doctrines.

 

There are basically now 2 kinds of people on this forum: Those who joined because they KNEW and KNOW what an independent fundamental Baptist is, and those who came here to cause confusion among those who are not completely grounded in what they believe and why, in hopes that they will swallow the garbage being fed them about the IFB and join in the anti-fundamentalist crusades led by the likes of Stuff Fundies Like, Jeri Massi, Baptist Deception, Jocelyn Zichterman and her "I Fired God" ex-IFB crowd, FBC JAX Watchdog, James White, Fred Butler, JD Hall, et al. Considering what I've seen on FB and Twitter with fake and anonymous accounts that I KNOW and CAN PROVE came from those groups,  to think that it's not happening on this forum is to be naive to detrimental degrees. 

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I cannot say that I have OBserved Bro Matt and the other admins/mods promoting heresy.  If you think that they are running things improperly and are guilty because of it, perhaps you should promote your forum site more aggressively.  

 

This site is open to non-IFB Baptists , with provision made for IFBrs-only.  It is too bad that some have prOBlems with that.  

 

It is also too bad that IFB is not formally defined.

 

With respect Arbo, there are two mods on OB who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.  They are also IFB.  RT causes all kinds of prOBlems with eschatology and confuses onlookers who hold to a pre-trib rapture.  These are the folks I have met on Facebook.  They are non-denominational and are heading towards becoming an IFB; however, they are highly confused by the mods and other members who promote a non pre-trib rapture.  Just stating a fact...

Years ago, on this site, this was not a prOBlem.  However, since I came back in OctOBer, 2013 after several years, this site doesn't hold to the widely held belief of a pre-trib rapture and promotes Replacement Theology.  One member is an anti-semite no matter how one looks at it.  He supports the "Palestinians."  I have posted a thread on this and got no response from him.  I know Jews who have come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but will not recommend this site to them, either, b/c of this false doctrine.  FYI, God gave the deed to the land of Israel to the Jews not the "Palestinians."

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**Correction To My Post**

There is another member that is an anti-semite; however, he came to OB later and I have not posted anything on the poor "Palestinians" since he arrived.  He believes the Jews don't worship God.  The Jews are worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and JacOB, although they are blind to the fact that Jesus is God.  It is our jOB as born again Christians (The Great Commission) to plant seeds to the lost and hopefully win them to the Lord.  That would include the Jews, as well.  With the horrible attitude by these two members regarding the Jews, I don't see any Jew coming to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ on OB.  This is a very sad reality.  

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I was on another forum where things started to kick off much like there are here at the moment, and the webmaster opted to suspend the forum service for a few months to get the site back on track. It so happens that this one never re-opened, but I still think that a moratorium on forum activity is potentially useful option. Just putting it out there...

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I was on another forum where things started to kick off much like there are here at the moment, and the webmaster opted to suspend the forum service for a few months to get the site back on track. It so happens that this one never re-opened, but I still think that a moratorium on forum activity is potentially useful option. Just putting it out there...

Was that the site ran by Nicholas Cardot?  I was a member there and really enjoyed it before it got over-run by some Jesuits, SDA's and Reformed Church and closed down..then attempt was made a few months later to re-start it through direct email invites to core IFB members, but it never materialized.

 

Bro. Garry

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Garry, I can't remember what it was called or who ran it I'm afraid. It closed about 2004 and at the time I was an atheist so I doubt I was one of the core members who got an invite to re-start  :icon_smile: . One of the people on it, who went by the name of U4tarheel, invited me to this forum. He used to post on here with the same username but I haven't seen him on here for a long time.

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I came here to fellowship with other IFB members. To pick the brains of men who hold to the same truths that I do. 

 

There is a desperate need for leadership to set things aright.

 

Right now its a mad house. The site can't agree if everyone must be born again to enter Heaven. Who is and isn't saved! What Jesus the master taught and to whom it applies. Who is the natural olive tree and who is the wild olive branch grafted in.

 

Cannot agree if the Devil has appeared on earth or is yet to come. If there is or isn't a rapture, little lone in what time frame it will occur.

 

Can not agree on why the Jewish nation has reappeared. What verses apply to Jews and what applies to the Church? One says yes another says no.

 

We can not agree on the word apparel. 

 

It does not matter how simple or complex a doctrine there is no agreement, just discord. 

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Then by all means; GO JOIN AN ECUMENICAL FORUM.

I'll deal with your emotionally laden post later. In a nutshell, all you've done is point out PRACTICES of those who failed to live up to their professions, that has zero to do with what IFB as a whole believe, a fact that I pointed on in the list I gave that nOBody has bothered to refute. What you have done is offered the same kind of experiential rationalizing that charismatics use to prove their beliefs. If you believe this strongly about the IFB-WHY ARE YOU HERE? WHY CAN'T ANY OF YOU THAT I'VE ASKED THAT WHO HAVE BEEN VOCAL ABOUT THE IFB ANSWER THAT??

Now let me ask you a simple common sense question: if all of the IFB is just as you state, THEN WHAT WOULD BE AN UNACCEPTABLE LINE TO YOU? You can't answer that and be able defend anything else you've said on this thread. The funny thing is that despite all of the flaws of everyone you mentioned, WE ALL KNOW THEY WERE INDEPENDENT FUNDAMENTAL BAPTISTS. HOW?? How did we and do we know that? What is it about every single one of those names you listed that everyone in the last 100 years recognized as an independent fundamental Baptist as opposed to a charismatic, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Catholic, Calvinist/Reformer?? You can't and WON'T answer that one either without playing semantics with subcategorized doctrines.

There are basically now 2 kinds of people on this forum: Those who joined because they KNEW and KNOW what an independent fundamental Baptist is, and those who came here to cause confusion among those who are not completely grounded in what they believe and why, in hopes that they will swallow the garbage being fed them about the IFB and join in the anti-fundamentalist crusades led by the likes of Stuff Fundies Like, Jeri Massi, Baptist Deception, Jocelyn Zichterman and her "I Fired God" ex-IFB crowd, FBC JAX Watchdog, James White, Fred Butler, JD Hall, et al. Considering what I've seen on FB and Twitter with fake and anonymous accounts that I KNOW and CAN PROVE came from those groups, to think that it's not happening on this forum is to be naive to detrimental degrees.

My point was that NO ONE in that generation would've told those men, some who were bitter rivals , that they weren't IFB because they disagreed over ANY DOCTRINES other than the Baptist Distinctives, and the 5 Fundamentals.
That was where WE once drew the line.
For crying out loud, everybody took the Sword, and I personally can't accept Rice's Version stance....but I didnt know a church that didn't take his paper, in the 70's and 80's.

You are drawing lines, that we have never drawn.

I dont accept them.

Someone wants to draw away from the Baptist Distinctives? I smell a rat.
Someone attacks the 5 Fundamentals?....we have a prOBlem Houston.

Arguing over eschatology? Will cease when His Kingdom comes.

FYI, I was referring to us IFB, when I said we'll agree with each other during the millenium.
At least I expect to see most of us there.



Anishinabe

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**Correction To My Post**

There is another member that is an anti-semite; however, he came to OB later and I have not posted anything on the poor "Palestinians" since he arrived.  He believes the Jews don't worship God.  The Jews are worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and JacOB, although they are blind to the fact that Jesus is God.  It is our jOB as born again Christians (The Great Commission) to plant seeds to the lost and hopefully win them to the Lord.  That would include the Jews, as well.  With the horrible attitude by these two members regarding the Jews, I don't see any Jew coming to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ on OB.  This is a very sad reality.  

 

Well, FWIW, the Jews that practice Judaism do not worship God. They reject Jesus Christ, and as Jesus is God and part of the Godhead, the god they worship (particularly in the style the worship) is now a figment of their imagination. 


James Ach, you are incredibly out of line. If you have a prOBlem with how BroMatt runs this site, you should have taken it to him by PM. You are not the definer of IFB nor the moderator of how this site should be run. Having your doctrinal p's and q's in place do not mean you are in the right nor have the right to attack BroMatt in such a fashion.  This kind of behavior puts me in mind of a person who would chop a hole in the bottom of the boat to get rid of the rats. Better the boat sink than the rats remain...

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Well, FWIW, the Jews that practice Judaism do not worship God. They reject Jesus Christ, and as Jesus is God and part of the Godhead, the god they worship (particularly in the style the worship) is now a figment of their imagination. 


James Ach, you are incredibly out of line. If you have a prOBlem with how BroMatt runs this site, you should have taken it to him by PM. You are not the definer of IFB nor the moderator of how this site should be run. Having your doctrinal p's and q's in place do not mean you are in the right nor have the right to attack BroMatt in such a fashion.  This kind of behavior puts me in mind of a person who would chop a hole in the bottom of the boat to get rid of the rats. Better the boat sink than the rats remain...

 

Yes, they are monotheistic Salyan.  They have no idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and JacOB is Jesus Christ.  They are blind like any lost person is.  It is still our jOB, as Christians, to fulfill the "Great Commission".  And, that would mean to take the gospel to the Jews, too.  It can be done.  :)

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