Kingdom Of Antichrist ?

[Eric Stahl]

Re dimensions discussion of posts 43-47:  Can anyone think of another place in Scriptures where specific measurements are given for a symbolic OBject? 

Sin was sent away as far as the east is from the west.

[Arbo]

Sin was sent away as far as the east is from the west.

 

Good example.  I was thinking more of the physical and less of the conceptual.

[Invicta]

Is this what you refer to?

No sir!  I was referring to Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[Invicta]

Symbolism is not allegorizing.  Symbolism did not start in the RC church, it started in Genesis.  Study, for instance Joseph's dreams. Which of them were literal?  The book of Revelation given in signs, (also known as figures, or symbols.)  Rev 1:1  1 ¶  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

Another symbol from Genesis

Heb.  11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

Revelation 11:4ff we have two witnesses, also described as Olive Trees and Candlesticks.  So how can they be three different things if they are not symbols?

[DaveW]

Hebrews 12:22 does not make them equivalent, and you still have not addressed why the measurement and description of the city is complete and precise if it is symbolic.

What is the symbolic purpose of the measurements?

There is none, for they are accurate, literal measurements.

[Dr James Ach]

Here's a real simple OBjection: How could Jesus have gone to make a place for anyone in John 14, if the building materials (the bodies that make up the "city") were not available or even born yet? Would be quite a challenge to call the PLACE that Jesus is building a city that is made out of bodies to which He said I GO TO PREPARE (which was immediately after His ascension), and the bodies needed to make that city won't be around for another couple thousand years.

 

Furthermore, the measurements given in Revelation are given of humans BEFORE they die (as in, a cubit would be @18 inches of a human living in a mortal body now). How does anyone know that our glorified bodies will have exactly the same measurements? In other words, John could not have been using measurements of men to describe the future measurements of men when their physical features would be entirely different once they OBtained their glorified bodies.

 

Just because Revelation uses symbolism (and nOBody is denying that the Bible uses symbolism) does not mean that certain things are not literal, and I have raised this OBjection before where Invicta nor Covenanter nor any other Calvinist, Preterist, or RT has responded to:

 

*Are the 7 churches in Revelation ch 1-3 7 literal churches? If the number is 'symbolic' because after all we're dealing with a symbolic book, then how many churches are there really?

*Were there only 7 letters or was there just one letter and 7 was symbolic meaning the original manuscript was whole and complete.

 

*Were there 7 candlestacks?

 

*Were there 144,000 Jews sealed?

 

*Were there 12 tribes of Israel in Rev 7?

 

*Does 1/3 of the waters turn to wormwood in Revelation 8 or is 1/3 just symbolic?

 

*Are there really only 7 seals or could that just be symbolic?

 

*Does the dragon reign for 3 1/2 years or is that 3 1/2 years just symbolic? It could be 350 1/2 years right!

 

*Does the army from the East in Revelation 9 really have 200 million members? (And by the way, does the Chinese Army right now just coincidentally  have a 200 million man army?)

 

And one question about Revelation 9 that no Preterist or CT or RT has ever answered me on is that since the claim is Revelation was fulfilled by the Roman armies attacking Jerusalem in AD 70, show me in history where there was any army on earth with that large of a military. The entire population of the earth itself was barely that large around AD 100 let alone a single army or corrOBoration of armies. Furthermore, Rome is WEST of Jerusalem not East.

 

 

Were there 4 beasts described in Revelation ch 4 or could it really be 400, or 4,000?

 

Now I could just continue listing figure after figure after figure throughout Revelation where to understand what is symbolic you have to also understand somethings that are NOT. To understand Jesus knocking on a door in Revelation 3:20, you have to understand what a door is. This is basic hermeneutics 101. The Bible uses symbolism, hyperbole, metaphors, idioms, typology, but there are general and common sense rules to the proper placement and usages of those. What the Bible does NOT do is ascribe hidden meanings embedded into the texts that mean something other than the plain meaning the verse has to the ordinary ear and eye-that it what the Gnostics did and that is what allegorical interpretation does. Most symbolism is explained in the Bible. Some is not, but there are still applicable rules of interpretation that tell us that Ezekiel's wheel in the middle of a wheel does not mean the spinners on the rims of a rich man's limo. Covenant theology stretches the rules of interpretation to where anything literal is unrecognizable and can have any meaning you want it to.

[Invicta]

And one question about Revelation 9 that no Preterist or CT or RT has ever answered me on is that since the claim is Revelation was fulfilled by the Roman armies attacking Jerusalem in AD 70, show me in history where there was any army on earth with that large of a military. The entire population of the earth itself was barely that large around AD 100 let alone a single army or corrOBoration of armies. Furthermore, Rome is WEST of Jerusalem not East.

 

 

 

As I have said over again, I am not a preterist, neither do I believe in in RT and I have no idea what RT theology is, neither do I believe that Revelation was written before AD 70.

 

China may have an army of 200,000,000  horsemen. The literal view of the Brethren is that is a literal army of a literal 200,000,000 horsemen, not armoured cars, not tanks, etc, but horsemen.

[Dr James Ach]

And of course one of the biggest fears that the larger countries have that rely on electricity for their advanced weaponry is that an EMP attack whether by nuclear bomb or by hacking the grids will cripple any advantages that said countries have over their enemies. When that happens (and its not a question of IF it will happen but merely when and how), wars will be reduced to conventional warfare....which means gun battles on horseback. Furthermore, there's a host of reasons for using horses in battle in the kind of terrain in the middle east such as in areas in Northern Israel, Pakistan, Caucus Mountains, Western Syria, etc..

 

In the last few years China has spent millions of dollars on a certain import from other countries. Wanna take a guess on what?? HORSES

 

There is still no army in history other than China that has had this kind of massive military. So there is no possible way that Revelation 9 could have been fulfilled at any time prior to the 21st century. 

[candlelight]

I agree with this, Dr. Ach.  Although, I believe that Russia will also be a power to be reckoned with.  I have mentioned this before, but Russia is filled with Muslims, and Muslims love their horses.  They will come against Israel during the Great Tribulation via horseback, as the Euphrates River is drying up.  God will send them back to Siberia, though.  Then, China will come in. 

[Invicta]

And of course one of the biggest fears that the larger countries have that rely on electricity for their advanced weaponry is that an EMP attack whether by nuclear bomb or by hacking the grids will cripple any advantages that said countries have over their enemies. When that happens (and its not a question of IF it will happen but merely when and how), wars will be reduced to conventional warfare....which means gun battles on horseback. Furthermore, there's a host of reasons for using horses in battle in the kind of terrain in the middle east such as in areas in Northern Israel, Pakistan, Caucus Mountains, Western Syria, etc..

 

In the last few years China has spent millions of dollars on a certain import from other countries. Wanna take a guess on what?? HORSES

 

There is still no army in history other than China that has had this kind of massive military. So there is no possible way that Revelation 9 could have been fulfilled at any time prior to the 21st century. 

 

Maybe they have 200,000,000 horses and 200,000,000 horsemen.  But an army of 200,000,000 horsemen would need infantry, command staff, cooks, pack animals, shall we say at least 200,000,000,000 altogether.  Remember that Herodotus when describing Xerxes' march to Greece with any army of 1 or 2 million, said they drank every river dry, and one large river was drunk dry by the pack animals alone.  Herodotus was describing a war which took place in his day, or just before,

[beameup]

What kind of "horses" does the U.S. 1st Cavalry Division use?

[DaveW]

Maybe they have 200,000,000 horses and 200,000,000 horsemen. But an army of 200,000,000 horsemen would need infantry, command staff, cooks, pack animals, shall we say at least 200,000,000,000 altogether. Remember that Herodotus when describing Xerxes' march to Greece with any army of 1 or 2 million, said they drank every river dry, and one large river was drunk dry by the pack animals alone. Herodotus was describing a war which took place in his day, or just before,

Rev 9
16  And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

so then this verse doesn't mean this number actually mentioned?

You do realize that if it does not mean 200000000 then that means that God is a liar.

Now we know as a certainty that an army of such numbers has never been seen in history.

You seem to have a real prOBlem with the accuracy of the Bible.......

[Dr James Ach]

Maybe they have 200,000,000 horses and 200,000,000 horsemen.  But an army of 200,000,000 horsemen would need infantry, command staff, cooks, pack animals, shall we say at least 200,000,000,000 altogether.  Remember that Herodotus when describing Xerxes' march to Greece with any army of 1 or 2 million, said they drank every river dry, and one large river was drunk dry by the pack animals alone.  Herodotus was describing a war which took place in his day, or just before,

Now when have you ever heard of anyone describing an army as follows...?

* "Before we attack, let's recon (duh). What kind of military do they have?"

* "Well, sir, they have 1 million in their army, plus generals, majors, colonels, captains, lts and sergeants".

 

.....ME EITHER. 

 

Clearly any reference to any military at all would have included all of its generals and attaches.

 

Furthermore, the world population in 480-500 BC was barely 100 million. Again, not even that large of a population on the planet let alone in anyone's military.

 

And finally, why would John need a special revelation and vision to show him something that had already happened as a known historical event if Revelation 9 was a reference to Herodotus or anyone in 400 B.C.?? John was told to write about the future, not historical events.

 

By the way, considering the earth population right now is roughly 8-9 billion after 6,000 years (less if you start after Noah), I seriously doubt we're going to hit 200 billion people as you described in your answer

[Invicta]

 

 

*Are the 7 churches in Revelation ch 1-3 7 literal churches? If the number is 'symbolic' because after all we're dealing with a symbolic book, then how many churches are there really?

*Were there only 7 letters or was there just one letter and 7 was symbolic meaning the original manuscript was whole and complete.

 

*Were there 7 candlestacks?

 

 

 

 

Just to pick up one point from your post.

 

Yes the seven candlesticks were symbolic. (as were the seven stars.)

 

Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

[DaveW]

Just to pick up one point from your post.

Yes the seven candlesticks were symbolic. (as were the seven stars.)

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The seven churches were real churches in real cities.
The CANDLESTICKS were symbolic of each of these real churches. .......