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Jordan Kurecki

Original Sin And Pelagianism

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1 John 2:1-2
1   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2   And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

There is no need to say more...

 

Now, I realize that a Calvinist's definitions of the words world, all, any, etc. are different. They have to be in order to fit their doctrine...that doesn't make their definitions right. The plain reading of scripture defines who God is talking about.

 

And no, I will not debate Jeffrey or any other person about the verses that I have listed...or...TULIP...or...supertransubordinefficastromodifcationism...or any other Calvinist term .

 

The Bible and God speak for themselves.

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Jeffrey, when you actually learn to debate with point, and counter point, and answer my statements and questions in the order and fashion they were given, instead of avoiding them by responding with more red herrings and rabbits, then I'll engage the other arguments and verses that I've answered a million other Calvinists on before.

 

And yes, I DID DECIDE I wanted to have a relationship with Christ, and if you DID NOT, and think you are saved merely because you think you are elected (which is something you can't prove) then you are not saved. When Calvinists can quit being so stupid as to assume that doing what God told us to do (make a decision to repent which is a DECISION and volitional change of mind) is us "saving ourselves" then perhaps there can be some meaningful dialogue and substantial steps towards Calvinists actually understanding the dynamics of the will that God gave us, instead of reducing us to evolutionary animals who merely operate on instinct and survive only if they were chosen to survive.

 

You can listen to James White and Paul Washer call it "decisionism" all day long, but the fact is if you do not WILLINGLY believe in Christ, then you are not saved.

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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

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Anything Dr James or NN have posted in this threads gets at least two thumbs up from me. ;)

Can I add that the GIFT of God is eternal life.
Any gift that is forced upon you is just not a gift - it is an imposition.
God's illustration of salvation as a gift fits in with the doctrine of free will as outlined in the verses NN has posted.

This is not Arminianism - it is Biblical understanding of salvation.
Arminianism is just as wrong as Calvinism.

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Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

 

It's not gonna work Jeffrey...

 

And no, I will not debate Jeffrey 

 

 

 

Variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures

......Augustine

 

:umno:

 

 

 

Jeffrey
Resident Liberal

 

The floor is yours; however, I will no longer respond to anything that you say. I just happen to believe that God knew what he was talking about when he said...

 

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 

 

Can I urge you to do the same?

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Jeffrey, when you actually learn to debate with point, and counter point, and answer my statements and questions in the order and fashion they were given, instead of avoiding them by responding with more red herrings and rabbits, then I'll engage the other arguments and verses that I've answered a million other Calvinists on before.

So my Scriptural verses I asked you to explain are "red herrings and rabbits"?

 

 

And yes, I DID DECIDE I wanted to have a relationship with Christ, and if you DID NOT, and think you are saved merely because you think you are elected (which is something you can't prove) then you are not saved.

No, I am saved because i am a sinner in whom Christ died on a cross for and was resurrected 3 days later. It was His shed blood that purchased me. Like I agreed with Geneveanpreacher, I was confronted with the Gospel and I believed it. Like I mentioned earlier. God put His imprint of Him in all men that they would seek Him, that was initiated by God, not man.

 

 

 

you mean, if people don't believe like me, they aren't really saved?

 

What you have done is take credit for your salvation, thinking that you had something to do with it, when in fact, God is all active in your salvation and doesn't need you to do anything but believe John 3:16

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Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

Using that kind of logic, only Paul was saved then because Galatians 2:20 makes it clear when Paul says "Christ died for ME" Paul didn't say that Christ died for the elect or even for anyone in Galatia in that verse, but ONLY FOR PAUL. So really, the only person that can truly prove that they are saved is Paul since he is the only person that Christ died for.

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So my Scriptural verses I asked you to explain are "red herrings and rabbits"?

 

 

No, I am saved because i am a sinner in whom Christ died on a cross for and was resurrected 3 days later. It was His shed blood that purchased me. Like I agreed with Geneveanpreacher, I was confronted with the Gospel and I believed it. Like I mentioned earlier. God put His imprint of Him in all men that they would seek Him, that was initiated by God, not man.

 

 

you mean, if people don't believe like me, they aren't really saved?

 

What you have done is take credit for your salvation, thinking that you had something to do with it, when in fact, God is all active in your salvation and doesn't need you to do anything but believe John 3:16

1) Yes. Just because you introduce new and irrelevant arguments that are based on what you think are proper scriptural interpretations does not mean that it was not a red herring. For example: I am debating an skeptic about the law of gravity, and he says, "well you may have a point, but why are there so many hypocrites in the church". He avoids the matter by diverting to something else and something that is irrelevant which is what you did. Answering and conversing over OBjections and debates in an orderly fashion prevents the kind of rabbit trails you introduced, and it allows a dialogue that progresses to the discovery of truth.

 

2) And how is what you said any different than the what a Universalist claims? They also believe that Christ died for them. In fact, they believe everyone will be saved no matter what: they believe in unconditional salvation for all the same way Calvinists do, only the Calvinists limits it to the elect, but the method of salvation is EXACTLY THE SAME. So how you do differentiate your salvation experience or scienter from that of a Universalist? You didn't answer the question as to how you know Jesus died FOR YOU. Like you said about 2 Peter, that was written to PETERS AUDIENCE, prove that it applies TO YOU.

 

3)Yep. If the shoe fits, wear it. I'm not going to let you pull off some guilt trip warped logic cop out speech. I meant what I said and the Bible supports it. "CHOOSE this day whom ye will serve" "How long halt ye between TWO OPINIONS", "if ye BELIEVE NOT that I am he ye shall die in your sins", 

"Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer [so much for an irrestible effectual call]; when I spake, ye did not hear [so much for the dead not being able to hear God because of depravity]; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not." Jeremiah 65:12 [so much for man not having a will to choose his own actions]

 

And again, you failed to address the very heart and definition of repentance. God COMMANDS repentance (Luke 13, Romans 2, Act 14, 15, 20, 22) and the very definition of repentance is a VOLUNTARY change of mind. When a person changes his mind, HE MAKES A DECISION. IN Acts 8, When Philip asked the Eunuch if he believed with all of his heart before he would baptized him, the Eunuch had made A DECISION to believe in Christ, and it was a decision that had to be declared verbally outloud to Philip before Philip would baptize him.

 

I have never taken credit for my salvation. That is the dumbest thing Calvinists have ever said. Like we quote Ephesians 2:8-9 KNOWING THAT **ONLY** GRACE THROUGH FAITH SAVES and then run around saying "Lookee Lookee!! I saved myself, I saved myself". This is the most ridiculous strawman that Calvinists have ever came up with when in truth, it is the Calvinist that is leading people to hell because they are convincing people that they don't have to make a choice to turn to Christ, that if (KEY WORD IF) they are elected God will do it for them, knowing that there is no way to prove ones election since who the elect are are admittedly ONLY KNOWN BY GOD. 

 

If I am in a burning building, and the fireman says "Grab my hand" and I did, He saved me from the fire, I did not save myself by grabbing his hand, but if I would have NOT grabbed his hand, I would have died in the fire.

 

Now if you really want to get scrappy, then argue with Jude when he says that others SAVE WITH FEAR pulling others out of hell, and Paul say he became all things to all men that he might SAVE SOME in 1 Cor 9.

 

Now to end your comment, you refer to John 3:16 and completely contradict yourself "God doesn't need you to do anything but believe". HELLO?? ANYBODY HOME? THAT'S A DECISION

 

ANd like I said, you have still ignored the point I made that shows Calvinism makes God the author and creator of sin.

Edited by Dr James Ach

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Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

Now answer this about 2 Peter 3, if God knows who the elect are WHY WOULD HE BE CONCERNED ABOUT THEM PERISHING?? If this was only the elect, there would be no need for God to have any long suffering at all toward them because they have already been chosen to be saved and there's no possibility that they even could perish. The other prOBlem with this warped view is that there are some that Peter addresses that are NOT SAVED and "denying the Lord that BOUGHT THEM" (2 Pet 2:1). So if 2 Peter is to ONLY the "elect", then you have  elect that lose their salvation in the previous chapter which doesn't square very well with perseverance of the saints now does it! And finally, if the elect already have their salvation secured, then the audience Peter is referring to is ALREADY SAVED, so how can there be anyone left to "come to repentance"??

This is one of the verses that Calvinists butcher more than any other.

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Not me. I became a believer when I actually 'heard' the Gospel, and it made sense! Jesus Christ is God in human form, and paid my sin debt on the cross.

So you are saved because the gospels "makes sense"??? James 2 says the devils believe and tremble, so how is your agreeing that Jesus is God any different than what demons themselves believe? Are devils saved because it makes sense to them too? Just because you believe those things doesn't prove anything. How do you know Jesus died for YOU!

 

You can't possibly answer that without becoming an Arminian in the process. You've already started by claiming that instead of your salvation being based on an election that you can't even prove you have, that it was based on hearing the gospel and it "made sense". So your sense is what saved you and yet using the sense to grasp the gospel is somehow different from making a decision for Christ that you Calvinists condemn in others. What a tangled web Calvinists weave.

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so you decided one day that you wanted a relationship with God and asked Jesus into your heart?

can you explain John 15:16, Matt 11:27, John 6:44?

I do have more in case you think I am just going through a few verses

John 15:16, a favorite Calvinist proof text, says nothing about Christ choosing them for salvation, it says He chose them as SERVANTS and from henceforth friends. It says Christ ordained them to go and bring forth fruit, not I have chosen you by eternal decree unto salvation.

Now you explain John 15:24, (since we're doing rabbit trails) " If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." Now if the elect are already chosen, then that means all who are non elect have no hope and are hopelessly sinners until their judgment, Yet hear they had NO SIN until Jesus spoke to them which THEN made them accountable which means they were not reprOBated from the foundation of the world which Calvinists would like us all to believe.

 

Matthew 11:27 This does nothing to eliminate conditions. Jesus does reveal Himself to who He will, and His will is to call EVERYONE, finish the context out and read verse 28 "Come unto me ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden" Let me guess, only the elect labor and are heavy laden. Or, Jesus is telling the elect who are already supposed to  be saved that they SHALL FIND rest for their souls. Well if they are already elect, they shouldn't have to worry about finding anything because Calvinists tell you that Jesus FINDS YOU, but yet that's not what this Scriptures shows us.

 

John 6:44 Yet another favorite, especially one that James White just massacres in Greek and English. We've answered this OBjection a million times http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John6_44.html

 

What's funny is that Calvinist claim that Jesus call is irresistible , and yet here all but 12 of his disciples walked away and never came back, and that one of them chosen was a devil which shows that "chosen" does not always mean saved. Judas was called, chosen, and given to Christ and yet never called Christ Lord. Jesus made it clear in John 6 as well as John 12 that those who come unto will do so after He is lifted up and if this happens (and it did) He will draw ALL MEN to himself (John 12:32) and there's not one single hint in English or Greek that there is some kind of hidden gnostic interpretation here that shows a difference of "without distinction" and "without exception" as Calvinists like to claim.

 

Now go back and answer my riddle about God guaranteeing that Adam had to sin in order to make his decree come to pass. Oh, and if you ever find that decree in the Bible let me know.

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Peter, again, like other epistles,was written to believers. not to unbelievers. So God is OBviously talking about the elect that will not perish

If Peter was specifically talking to certain people, there would be a Ye, or Thou in there to make it clear.... Ill never understand this... why is it when Gods word says ALL, there is a debate amongst reformed folk around what ALL is...  as for Rev 3:20.yes the audience is talking to laeodicia but the point is clear, ANY MAN, not "any of you".

Just to be clear; All means All, All the time.

as for romans 9... its talking about Corporate Israel and not individual person(s)

Its really not hard to see God redeeming a people, but they choose to fall away, God calling them back and the only payment worthy being through His Son, being the entire core of the Bible all the way through... 

unless of course God caused David to lie with Bath-sheba so that He could get Tamar raped... cause.. there's a good god. (lower g because the true God did not do this OBviously)

 

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So you are saved because the gospels "makes sense"??? James 2 says the devils believe and tremble, so how is your agreeing that Jesus is God any different than what demons themselves believe? Are devils saved because it makes sense to them too? Just because you believe those things doesn't prove anything. How do you know Jesus died for YOU!

 

You can't possibly answer that without becoming an Arminian in the process. You've already started by claiming that instead of your salvation being based on an election that you can't even prove you have, that it was based on hearing the gospel and it "made sense". So your sense is what saved you and yet using the sense to grasp the gospel is somehow different from making a decision for Christ that you Calvinists condemn in others. What a tangled web Calvinists weave.

 

You never cease to amaze me with your vast knowledge of my heart.

Yes, the gospel, that I have been to church to hear since I was 5 years old, did finally make sense.

It took almost 20 years to do, but it happened.

I heard it and I believed it completely, and it converted my soul. Yes, as a result of believing with my whole heart, 

I did realize I was a sinner. One who hears the gospel with his heart does realize that.

Conversion does not happen unless there is noticed in one that they are not 'right' with the Creator of the universe.

I chose to change my ways (repentance) because of the realization of who I was compared

to who God was, and I chose, out of the love I now had for him, that I would follow his ways,instead of mine.

You OBviously are one who believes you need to 'ask Jesus into your heart'.

I am not. I have seen the result of 100's of so-called saved people, for the last 45 years, in the Baptist

churches that my Dad and Mom attended, with my 2 brothers and sister, make these so-called decisions to follow

Christ by praying a sinners prayer, and I know of none that are 'still saved'.

Not even my brothers and sister. (I do not doubt my Dad is saved, he is still preaching at 70)

I am the only one in my family that has followed Christ, truly, and that for 27 years now.

I did not say a sinners prayer to 'get saved', I believed with all my heart, just like the Eunuch from Ethiopia.

Peter was 'converted' after the Lord arose. Paul never asked Jesus into his heart. None of the disciples did.

My heart was converted to Jesus Christ being my Savior. I hope you also believed to the point of conversion,

but with the way you tear into people unmercilessly and without compassion, I don't see it.

That doesn't make it so, but that is what I have OBserved since being on the forum.

 

By the way, you follow the normal response to someone 'really believing' with the stupid

question about James verse about the devils believing and trembling. OF COURSE they tremble!

They KNOW they are condemned forever! They CAN'T be saved!

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation!!

 

Show us one verse that says someone asked Jesus to come into their heart and save them. Just one.

Before you quote Romans 10, reread the whole chapter. You would have two types of 'being saved', if you are not careful.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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You never cease to amaze me with your vast knowledge of my heart.

Yes, the gospel, that I have been to church to hear since I was 5 years old, did finally make sense.

I heard it and I believed it completely, and it converted my soul. Yes, as a result of believing with my whole heart, 

I did realize I was a sinner. One who hears the gospel with his heart does realize that.

Conversion does not happen unless there is noticed in one that they are not 'right' with the Creator of the universe.

I chose to change my ways (repentance) because of the realization of who I was compared

to who God was, and I chose, out of the love I now had for him, that I would follow his ways,instead of mine.

You OBviously are one who believes you need to 'ask Jesus into your heart'.

I am not. I have seen the result of 100's of so-called saved people, for the last 45 years, in the Baptist

churches that my Dad and Mom attended, with my 2 brothers and sister, make these so-called decisions to follow

Christ by praying a sinners prayer, and I know of none that are 'still saved'.

Not even my brothers and sister.

I am the only one in my family that has followed Christ, truly, and that for 27 years now.

I did not say a sinners prayer to 'get saved', I believed with all my heart, just like the Eunuch from Ethiopia.

Peter was 'converted' after the Lord arose. Paul never asked Jesus into his heart. None of the disciples did.

My heart was converted to Jesus Christ being my Savior. I hope you also believed to the point of conversion,

but with the way you tear into people unmercilessly and without compassion, I don't see it.

That doesn't make it so, but that is what I have OBserved since being on the forum.

 

By the way, you follow the normal response to someone 'really believing' with the stupid

question about Jude's verse about the devils believing and trembling. OF COURSE they tremble!

They KNOW they are condemned forever! They CAN'T be saved!

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation!!

 

Show us one verse that says someone asked Jesus to come into their heart and save them. Just one.

Before you quote Romans 10, reread the whole chapter. You would have two types of 'being saved', if you are not careful.

First of all, you missed the point entirely. Everything you just said is the exact opposite of what you defended for Calvinism. Thus you are either a) being deliberately deceptive B) don't know Calvinism very well c) just a terrible liar. Nevertheless, your moderate attempt to defend Calvinism just fell flat on its face the minute you admitted to choosing anything.

 

And nOBody was contending here that a person is saved by merely praying a prayer. That has become the popular Calvinist accusation in order attack the OBvious conflict that Calvinism is inherently anti-evangelistic (and please don't go quoting Baptist preachers FROM OVER 100 YEARS AGO that actually were evangelistic, like Spurgeon and Carey, who by today's standards would not even be considered Calvinists by Calvinists themselves). The Calvinists know that they have been accused of thwarting evangelism, so what's the best way to counter that accusation? ATTACK THE CONVERSIONS OF THOSE IN THE INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES. If you can successfully convince people that the conversion experience of a person who claims to have asked Jesus into their heart as the ONLY THING THAT PERSON BELIEVES OR DID TO GET SAVED, and convince everyone that all Baptists believe and preach this, then the Calvinist never has to answer the OBjections about whether or not Calvinism is truly evangelist or not because once the conversions are attacked, then the Baptist can't point to any conversions to prove that they are evangelistic either. 

 

It's a devious Satanic trick straight out of hell. Those people who "asked Jesus into their hearts" believed just as much as you or anyone else that Jesus died for sinners, that repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation, and calling upon the name of the Lord is a Biblical means to salvation. NOBody that I know that started going to church on Sonday morning instead of nursing a hangover like they USED to do says they are different merely because they "asked Jesus into their heart". That is neither what we believe nor what we teach, but a classic strawman made up by Calvinists, and atheists and ex-fundies to describe the salvation testimonies of IFBs.

 

And by the way, your definition of repentance is dead wrong. Repentance is not "changing your WAYS".

 

Since you said don't quote Romans 10, I won't. So show me where repentance means changing your ways. Then show me where if a person believes in their heart that God has raised Christ from the dead and that person with a complete understanding of their sin, death burial and resurrection of Christ and that salvation is not by works by through faith in Christ calls upon the name of the Lord that that person is NOT saved. It's like you numbskulls thinks we just pull people to the side and never explain anything to them. We just give them a script to follow and have a 1-2-3 repeat after me congratulations see you in eternity session for 20 seconds and send them off on their merry way. Those who HAVE taught such nonsense have been blasted on this forum on a regular basis.

 

But one thing you'll never see in this lifetime is a Calvinist who gets their own converts and builds their own church from scratch. They simply steal all of those already in Baptist churches, you know, those who "prayed Jesus into their hearts" and show up every week because they're not really saved, they just felt like doing something different on the weekend for the fun of it, and then claim a great reformation is going on by adding the numbers of their new "converts" to all the blog rolls. This is why the Calvinists won't leave the Southern Baptist Convention because other Baptists did all of the ground work, and now the Calvinists think they are "entering into their labors".

 

If you're going to defend another Calvinist and their views, then at least get the stories straight first, make the right accusations and know what they really believe. It's ironic that the biggest testimony against the confusion of Calvinism is among Calvinists themselves who can't agree on just what Calvinism is nor coherently defend it.

 

***

Here's Paul's merciful and compassionate way of dealing with heretics in Titus 1:

 

 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: [Notice it doesn't say ONLY the circumcision but ESPECIALLY since most liberals try to claim this verse is talking about only Jews]

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men [cathechisms, creeds, confessions, canons], that turn from the truth

 

You and several others are the ones that came to this forum to purposely cause chaos and division which is an abomination to God. Prov 6:19. So you don't get to come in here, throw out all of your accusation and then attempt to flip the script and play the victim card as if you are being attacked. The reason I am so good at pointing this kind of nonsense out is because my people have been dealing with this kind of bologna from "Palestinians" for years: those who throw rocks and bombs over our borders and then blame us for shooting back. To me, the average Calvinist and IFB critic is no better or different than a Palestinian terrorist, and when a terrorist crosses into the territory of my brothers and sisters, I shoot to kill with no apologies. 

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You are not listening.

You speak and say nothing constructive, yet I will OBserve your critic and try to use better judgement in my words.

Thank you for clarifying just what I was saying about those who 'call upon the name of the Lord' to be saved, in stead of because they are saved.

 

I did grow up in Southern Baptist churches, and did see a lot of junk, even as a child.

In 1982 my Dad moved us to the country out of the suburbs, and joined an Independent Baptist Church.

In 1987, after they finally convinced me to come, I got saved. 3 weeks into it. 

 

I am not a Calvinist. I am not Arminian. I am a bible believer.

If a Calvinist says something biblical, I agree. If an Arminian says something biblical, I agree.

 

So, I don't follow 'your' ways.

I follow God's ways, to the best of my ability. Yet, I might fall short.

 

For some reason you do nothing that encourages the brethren except to 'be sure and attack anyone who 'claims'

to be an IFB, to prove them'.

Like the church in Revelation did.

But Johns book encourages them to return to their first love.

I hope you do.

 

"You and several others are the ones that came to this forum to purposely cause chaos and division which is an abomination to God. Prov 6:19. So you don't get to come in here, throw out all of your accusation and then attempt to flip the script and play the victim card as if you are being attacked. The reason I am so good at pointing this kind of nonsense out is because my people have been dealing with this kind of bologna from "Palestinians" for years: those who throw rocks and bombs over our borders and then blame us for shooting back. To me, the average Calvinist and IFB critic is no better or different than a Palestinian terrorist, and when a terrorist crosses into the territory of my brothers and sisters, I shoot to kill with no apologies." *

 

*This quote by you, doesn't even sound like a good christian attitude. Comparing me to a terrorist.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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