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Jordan Kurecki

Why I Have Decided To Change My Music Standards.

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Thank you for posting that verse.  Now, my question is, "Is that a command?" Is that something that would be wrong to omit, or is it a suggestion similar to how Paul promotes the idea of being single?  I know that vocal inflections cannot be heard within text, so I hope I do not sound like I am being difficult.  I am honestly wanting to know.

 

James 5:13

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Wow...what a sad testimony...for that church!

 

Music has its place; however, too many churches "place" it above everything else. I might be wrong, but I'm aware of only one instance in the New Testament where music was part of a "service"...

 

Matthew 26:30 (and Mark 14:26)
And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
 
This was right after the Lord had instituted the Lord's Supper. What's interesting to me is...
  1. They sang after the "service"...not before.
  2. They sang only one hymn.

The "service"...or the words from the Lord...took the precedence.

Keep in mind, its not always the church, having myself been the guy 'boring holes' in the person singing. Granted, a church can allow it to go too far when we forget that we are doing what we do for the Lord not for man. Perfection for the Lord is a good thing, but the Bible, as I like to remind people, tells us to make a joyful noise to the Lord, not a pleasing sound for men's ears. Its great if you can sound good, but many who sound absolutely etheral may have hearts that cause the Lord to reject that sacrifice of praise, while someone who doesn't sound so good to me, may be offering a sweet sacrifice unto Him.

 

In my case, I had to change, not the church. Though I agree that it does sound as though that particular church is going in a bad direction. Musically, anyways.

 

We don't do any 'special music' in our church currently, but we do a morning reading from Psalms every Sunday, read by a different person each week. Some don't read so well, read too soft, don't understand punctuation, etc, but I still encourage it and thank them for it, because it is a sacrifice for many of them just to get up and read aloud.  (I do 119, by the way-it usually becomes the morning lesson.)

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There is no command to have music in church - but there is no command not to. There is biblical precedence for music in worship, based on OT practices. I realize that we are not in the OT, and church services are not the same as the OT tabernacle worship (and we have had this discussion before  :icon_smile: ), but I believe music can have a place in corporate worship.  Whether or not it does would depend on each individual church, and how it's done would also depend on each individual church.

 

We do a few congregational songs (can't remember how many, but not lots...three, maybe four).  Plus we have a choir special. And the instruments play while the offering is being taken.  And we have one special right before the service.  That special is rarely a solo.

 

Our (former) pastor (our current would be the same) always said that he would stop the music program if he felt that pride was becoming a part of the singing, etc.  There have been times when those who sing special music have been removed from the roster due to issues (I remember one time when one of the singers seemed to be almost laughing while singing...our pastor got on him privately, and publicly told us that singing was to be done to the Lord, taken seriously, and was not to be taken lightly...that person no longer sang in specials.).  There's been more than once that, during a sermon, he spoke directly to the "music people" (as he calls them) and exhorted them to be sure they were right with God and were not singing for pride's sake, etc.

 

I like the way our church does the music.  I don't think it's too much. I have been in churches where all they did was sing. IMO, that's not a service. It's just a time where people have gathered to sing together.  And it's all emotion.  I'm thankful our pastor keeps things decently and in order.

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I'd like to ask some of you to join me over on the Baptist Board in the discussion taking place, it's a mirror thread to this one, and I have to say I am having a hard time dealing with the bombardment of these people, I am prOBably the only one arguing for a more conservative view of music.

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93567

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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I'd like to ask some of you to join me over on the Baptist Board in the discussion taking place, it's a mirror thread to this one, and I have to say I am having a hard time dealing with the bombardment of these people, I am prOBably the only one arguing for a more conservative view of music.

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93567

Sorry Jordan, but I was banned from the BaptistBoard in 2008.  The truth offends.

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I'd like to ask some of you to join me over on the Baptist Board in the discussion taking place, it's a mirror thread to this one, and I have to say I am having a hard time dealing with the bombardment of these people, I am prOBably the only one arguing for a more conservative view of music.

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93567

Yea I left BB, too many calvinists, got tiring.
 

 

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/pharmacy_music.html

 

Some may wonder why I focus so heavily upon this subject.  It is because of my first hand experience of the OBsessive power that music can have on us, regardless of our intent.  Satan is a master at taking things that are of God and twisting them to serve his own OBjectives.  Especially in these modern times, music can be incredibly dangerous and can consume one completely.  It is not just an issue of lyrics, as there are countless examples of instrumental music that can produce very powerful emotions that are not necessarily of God.  

 

Just because we experience strong emotions when listening to certain types of music and believe that we are having godly experiences, it doesn't mean that it is true.  It is very easy to whip an audience into an emotional frenzy to the extent that everyone there believes that they are being filled with the spirit.  I used to have very emotional experiences from listening to very ungodly music that I believed were godly, but I was wrong.  God is not the author of confusion and He does not promote the indulgence in evil things to bring about godly experiences.

 

I believe that the potential dangers of music is something that is minimized and marginalized to the detriment of the church.

The article you linked really gave me nothing to sway my position. While im glad you personally have a conviction, that doesnt mean that your conviction is accurate. coming back to Calvinism for a second, Calvinists have a conviction to preach the "doctrines of grace", but many people disagree with those "doctrines". All arguments thus far have been conjecture, not scripture. Now im not arguing for all CCM music. I think if music isn't for God or honors God. than its really useless, however this isnt to say someone cant write a song about how they love their wife... loving your wife is scriptural. regardless, all these "studies" on mice, or plants or whatever else are interesting, some even humorous, but lacking.

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:puzzled3:studies on mice and plants?? what? I missed something...

 

I think he was prOBably referring to studies done of how music affects mice and plants.

yup, there's been a few

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Yea I left BB, too many calvinists, got tiring.
 

 

The article you linked really gave me nothing to sway my position. While im glad you personally have a conviction, that doesnt mean that your conviction is accurate. coming back to Calvinism for a second, Calvinists have a conviction to preach the "doctrines of grace", but many people disagree with those "doctrines". All arguments thus far have been conjecture, not scripture. Now im not arguing for all CCM music. I think if music isn't for God or honors God. than its really useless, however this isnt to say someone cant write a song about how they love their wife... loving your wife is scriptural. regardless, all these "studies" on mice, or plants or whatever else are interesting, some even humorous, but lacking.

I think the difference lies in using genres that are OBviously very closely linked to immorality, for example Rock music has always been about sin and rebellion, yet people try to take that sound and use it to honor God?

 

I think there is a huge difference between singing Happy birthday to you with a harmless melody, and singing PRAISE JESUS to behind banging overpowering drum beats with screeching guitars. 

 

Get what I am saying?

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I think the difference lies in using genres that are OBviously very closely linked to immorality, for example Rock music has always been about sin and rebellion, yet people try to take that sound and use it to honor God?

 

I think there is a huge difference between singing Happy birthday to you with a harmless melody, and singing PRAISE JESUS to behind banging overpowering drum beats with screeching guitars. 

 

Get what I am saying?

Yes I get it however I disagree though OBviously as I have made that clear... Also your happy birthday/praise Jesus comparison doesn't even make sense, but I get your 'point'

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I have watched quite a few of them.  He does a fine jOB with them.  Thank you for linking to them.

 

The Secret Life of Plants was a popular book about how different things (including music) were shown to have effects on plants.  Stevie Wonder based one of his albums on that book.

 

I have watched quite a few of them.  He does a fine jOB with them.  Thank you for linking to them.

 

The Secret Life of Plants was a popular book about how different things (including music) were shown to have effects on plants.  Stevie Wonder based one of his albums on that book.

Have you read this book?

 

is it worth picking up?

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So I supose there's no place for common sense and OBservational evidences in Christianity?

 

Bible doesn't condemn smoking, so its alright.

 

Bible doesn't condemn LSD, so it must be alright.

 

We can SEE the effects certain kinds of music have-there are both visual and measurable effects of certain types of music. I can tell how, in playing music in nursing homes, that many kinds of music produce no effect in some patientsa, while old hymns will bring recognition to some of their eyes and minds. There have been studies, as has been mentioned before.

 

We can also see how listening to, and adhereing to, certain types of music, whether 'Christian" or secular, can have a rebellious effect of people. 

Dan Luicarini tells of how his church moved into CCM, and as the older members, people who had built that church, who had worked through the heat of the day for the Lord, disliked it, and their attitude was that the old people were welcome to leave if they didn't like their music. That's rebellion.

 

I had a man in one of my services who was visiting for his granddaughter's baptism-he is, ostensibly a Christian, older than myself, (I'm 50). he liked CCM. In my sermon, I made a side comment about CCM, but it wasn't the subject of my lesson, nor did I spend more than perhaps 10 words on it, yet he stewed the rest of the sermon, and afterward, came directly to the pulpit, poked his finger in my chest, (literally), and said, "Listen, dude! you can't show me anywhere in the Bible where it says CCM is bad!" and he turned around and stalked out and sat in his car until his family was ready to leave. Not coloring outside the lines here.  All I have ever seen in the result is rebellion, adults acting like kids when someone dares to say there might be something wrong with it.

 

The clear issue is one of sanctification and holiness. The Lord told Moses and Aaron, after the deaths of Nadab and Abihu, "I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified." (Lev 10:3) Nadab and Abihu attempted to serve the Lord in the manner of the Egyptian priests, by waving their censers of incense before God-but they weren't commemded to do so, nor were they supposed to offer incense in censers at all-that was the pagan method of worship. They wanted to serve God in a pagan, secular manner. This is exactly what people do when they use the wicked music styles of the world, those associated with rebellion and sex, (the very term rock and roll means sex), is an unsanctified manner of worship. We are to be seaprated and sanctified and holy before the Lord, not sounding and acting like the world.

 

The Bible doesn't need to be specific-it says enough about sanctification and holiness that it shouldn't take a genius to see that rebellious, violent, sexual, sensual music styles, that have enough of a history to see that clearly, if one chooses to open their eyes, does not glorify God-it glorifies man, and attratcs our flesh.

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So I supose there's no place for common sense and OBservational evidences in Christianity? oh man, someones grumpy, lets go through this

 

Bible doesn't condemn smoking, so its alright. Bible says the body is a temple, thus we should take care of it.

 

Bible doesn't condemn LSD, so it must be alright. Bible says to stay sOBer minded...

 

We can SEE the effects certain kinds of music have-there are both visual and measurable effects of certain types of music. I can tell how, in playing music in nursing homes, that many kinds of music produce no effect in some patientsa, while old hymns will bring recognition to some of their eyes and minds. There have been studies, as has been mentioned before. Conjecture and ones personal experience is not scriptural otherwise doctrines would be running wild in the church because of our emotional bias... oh wait... that is happening LOL.
 

 

We can also see how listening to, and adhereing to, certain types of music, whether 'Christian" or secular, can have a rebellious effect of people. 

Dan Luicarini tells of how his church moved into CCM, and as the older members, people who had built that church, who had worked through the heat of the day for the Lord, disliked it, and their attitude was that the old people were welcome to leave if they didn't like their music. That's rebellion. That speaks to the members attitudes, not the music.

 

I had a man in one of my services who was visiting for his granddaughter's baptism-he is, ostensibly a Christian, older than myself, (I'm 50). he liked CCM. In my sermon, I made a side comment about CCM, but it wasn't the subject of my lesson, nor did I spend more than perhaps 10 words on it, yet he stewed the rest of the sermon, and afterward, came directly to the pulpit, poked his finger in my chest, (literally), and said, "Listen, dude! you can't show me anywhere in the Bible where it says CCM is bad!" and he turned around and stalked out and sat in his car until his family was ready to leave. Not coloring outside the lines here.  All I have ever seen in the result is rebellion, adults acting like kids when someone dares to say there might be something wrong with it. Again this speaks to a persons attitude, not what the music is or isnt.

 

The clear issue is one of sanctification and holiness. The Lord told Moses and Aaron, after the deaths of Nadab and Abihu, "I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified." (Lev 10:3) Nadab and Abihu attempted to serve the Lord in the manner of the Egyptian priests, by waving their censers of incense before God-but they weren't commemded to do so, nor were they supposed to offer incense in censers at all-that was the pagan method of worship. They wanted to serve God in a pagan, secular manner. This is exactly what people do when they use the wicked music styles of the world, those associated with rebellion and sex, (the very term rock and roll means sex), is an unsanctified manner of worship. We are to be seaprated and sanctified and holy before the Lord, not sounding and acting like the world. Im not arguing that the music should honor God. It very well should.

 

The Bible doesn't need to be specific-it says enough about sanctification and holiness that it shouldn't take a genius to see that rebellious, violent, sexual, sensual music styles, that have enough of a history to see that clearly, if one chooses to open their eyes, does not glorify God-it glorifies man, and attratcs our flesh. Im guessing your calling me dumb? not very nice from 'staff' of this website.  Still would like a chapter and verse that explains how specific musical genres effect us physically/spiritually...Chapter and verse please.

come now, you must be able to do better than that.

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come now, you must be able to do better than that.

No I wasn't calling you dumb, but I am tempted to due to your comment:

 

Still would like a chapter and verse that explains how specific musical genres effect us physically/spiritually...Chapter and verse please.

If I may direct your attention to your answer to my first couple points on cigarettes and LDS, you took Bible principles and applied them to things that it doesn't specifically SAY. Then, in the area of music, you seem incapable of doing the same thing. Rather,myou MUST have chapter and verse that speaks about different music genres, when said genres didn't exist-thus we have no choice but to take general biblical principles and apply them.

 

Now, I'm not saying that there weren't different types of national musics-but that is hardly a genre. The issue I have with CCM is it is specifically designed to sound like secular music styles, which are faddish and driven completely by cultural popularity-this is why it continually changes; it is NOT driven by what might please God but what pleases men. Iy is driven by the flesh, and not even that of believers, but unbelievers, who design the styles according to what sells, then the CCM artists follow after them. It is ever-changing and always shifting, according to the lusts of the flesh, but we will try to make it palatable to a Holy God. It is, and always HAS been, about inciting rebellion in the listeners. That was the stated goal by the earliest writers and performers-not my opinion. Its how it was designed, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.. 

 

Now, consider holiness: what does it mean? In the Hebrew it means apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness; Holy, separate, apart. How,tell me, is music specifically imitating secular worldly, rebellious music styles to be considered holy? The very fact that it seeks intentionally to sound like the popular secular music styles, with again, the spoken intention of using it to draw people to Christ who like those kinds of music, makes it, by definition, UNholy. How can we go before God, who is holy, bearing an unholy sacrifice of praise? How is it any different than Nadab and Abihu approaching God after the manner of the Egyptian priests? They weren't MEANING to worship false gods, but God Almighty-they just did it in an unholy manner and gave Him that which was abominable.

 

Now, you feel free to worship God with whatever pleases you, whatever makes you feel good-I don't expect to change your mind any more than you will change mine, but when all one needs to do is open their eyes to see the wicked fruit of contemporary music and CCM, and yet many still insist there's nothing wrong with it, well, you just gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not your pastor and you don't have to listen to me, but I have seen the fruit of CCM, as well as secular contemporary music, and I'll have no part of it.

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No I wasn't calling you dumb, but I am tempted to due to your comment:
I see your one of those "loving" Christians
 

If I may direct your attention to your answer to my first couple points on cigarettes and LDS, (LSD) you took Bible principles and applied them to things that it doesn't specifically SAY. Then, in the area of music, you seem incapable of doing the same thing (Its not an incapability but rather there are no texts given to me yet to draw these conclusions from.). Rather,myou MUST have chapter and verse that speaks about different music genres, when said genres didn't exist-thus we have no choice but to take general biblical principles and apply them. Which is fine, and I'm still waiting for stronger verses than given, every anti CCM person here, just assumes its evil and thus uses "anti evil" scriptures, this is poor logic and reasoning.

 

Now, I'm not saying that there weren't different types of national musics-but that is hardly a genre. The issue I have with CCM is it is specifically designed to sound like secular music styles There are secular quartets, and orchestras and singing groups... Christianity doesn't hold an exclusive right on a "Genre", which are faddish and driven completely by cultural popularity-this is why it continually changes; it is NOT driven by what might please God but what pleases men This is conjecture, there are bad apples everywhere, but to state an entire group of people who play music that you dont like ALL just want to please themselves and not God... really?. Iy is driven by the flesh, and not even that of believers, but unbelievers, who design the styles according to what sells, then the CCM artists follow after them. It is ever-changing and always shifting, according to the lusts of the flesh, but we will try to make it palatable to a Holy God. It is, and always HAS been, about inciting rebellion in the listeners. That was the stated goal by the earliest writers and performers-not my opinion. Its how it was designed, and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.. 

 

Now, consider holiness: what does it mean? In the Hebrew it means apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness; Holy, separate, apart. How,tell me, is music specifically imitating secular worldly, rebellious music styles to be considered holy? As stated Christians don't have a hold on a genre for themselves. How does one determine if God dislikes a music style, tone and beat are not breathing beings, what we use those tones and sound waves for and how we use them depicts their "morality". The very fact that it seeks intentionally to sound like the popular secular music styles, with again, the spoken intention of using it to draw people to Christ who like those kinds of music, makes it, by definition, UNholy. This I dont disagree with, Bait and switch is dumb, if anyone is trying to sound like a particular group to lure them into church and then drop the Bible bomb on them and get them saved is being dumb. However I cant fault a genuine Christian expressing their Love for Christ using a certain pitch/Tone/beat/volume, these things do not have their own "life" its how we "puppeteer" them so to speak.How can we go before God, who is holy, bearing an unholy sacrifice of praise? How is it any different than Nadab and Abihu approaching God after the manner of the Egyptian priests? They weren't MEANING to worship false gods, but God Almighty-they just did it in an unholy manner and gave Him that which was abominable.

 

Now, you feel free to worship God with whatever pleases you, whatever makes you feel good-I don't expect to change your mind any more than you will change mine, To start off with such veracity and then quit at the end is saddening. but when all one needs to do is open their eyes to see the wicked fruit of contemporary music and CCM, and yet many still insist there's nothing wrong with it, well, you just gotta do what you gotta do. Ah yes, the theological "do what you gotta do". I'm not your pastor and you don't have to listen to me,Your not my pastor, but you are a Brother in Christ and I respect you, I wish you would return the respect. but I have seen the fruit of CCM, as well as secular contemporary music, and I'll have no part of it. I respect this position, and take no issue with it. 90% of CCM I think is watered down garbage, However theologically accurate music, despite the "Genre" used to help reach the lost, I wont start chopping away at because I feel like "it doesn't speak to me personally". One of the questions with any song (or album if its a concept album or something) I decide to listen to is, "overall; who is getting the Glory" I may even skip getting an artists album because I feel like they kinda flopped one. I take no stance to be honest, most CCM music is really bad, but some hip hop artists are preaching the Gospel in-front of thousands... what a mission field! I see no reason to write them off.

Edited by Gorship

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