Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

What Makes On An "ifb"?


Ukulelemike

Recommended Posts

  • Members

If you would like to go through this point by point, I would be glad to Steve. I have laid out my reasons, you have laid out yours.
I don't see you as too far away from me.
I don't perceive you to be some heretic, trying to subvert God's Word purposefully.
If you see that I am honestly in favor of seeing our Movement come further out from among them, til we reach the promised land to conquer mightily, than let's get down to it, point by point.
I wish no one who has your sincere intentions any ill will.

If you will, respond. Someone may have to quote me, as Steve may have me on "ignore".

I am only interested in IFB, and have never been anything but IFB.
I am grieved by all of the doctrinal error I heard growing up, and in my first 20 years in the ministry.
But I was so busy planting churches, that I never wrote, blogged, or even spoke to people outside of my own ministry.
It wasn't till I pointed out Jack Schaap's attack on the KJV, in '05, and was attacked for it, that I realized that we had never finalized our pull out of the Bible Corrector's Error.

Search my heart, hear in my last 2 posts, see if you see some Protestant Heresy, or Charismatic subversion in them.

I claim no authority but God's Word, in English the Holy Bible Authorized (King James) Version.

I hold to the Baptist Distinctives.

The Fundamentals are broad and incomplete, so they don't rate, but I hold to them, by default.

I hold to Soulwinning, but not Salesmanship, Lordship, Emergentship or Vikingship salvation.

Can't we look at recent Baptist History, and see where we see eye to eye?

One day it will be too late for our movement, and where will Christianity be left then?

Our kids are fleeing, like rats off of a ship.

The Emergents are recruiting us.

Calvinism is rearing It's ugly Roman head again.

I will fight til they chop off my head, even if you are the one who turns me in, because I am wrong on eschatology. I will lay down my life for my Generation of Baptists.

Will you?

Anishinaabe

 

Outstanding posts from both you and Steve in this thread.

 

I have to admit that I am baffled over the anti-dispensational and anti pretrib positions you hold however.

 

Setting aside all men's thoughts, writings and possible hidden agendas concerning these subjects in the past (who cares). What would make you not clearly see both in the Word alone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Prophet Just because Norris was in the Dallas area does not necessarily mean there was a tie in with Dallas Theological Seminary. Norris was there long before DTS got started, and Norris was preaching dispensationalism before DTS was started - and he did not have a hand in starting that school anyway, so far as I know. Here is why we can't have any rational discussion. When you say things like... "Scofield Reference Satanism..." and "We still get Calvinism from the likes of Grady..." Grady? Dr. William Grady? He is not a Calvinist, so I have no idea what you are talking about there.... I make absolutely no apologies about what I believe, or why I believe it, and neither do you. I don't count you an "enemy" so far as winning souls, local church, Baptist distinctives, etc. are concerned. But we are worlds apart on some important doctrine. I have some good Baptist preacher friends here in town who disagree with me on this stuff as well, but we get along fine. So can you and I....but not when you keep hurling those insults. My position is this: if you believe the KJV is the perfect word of God - more power to you, even when we disagree on doctrine. I am not the final authority, the KJV is. I am not the HOly Spirit, so I can only present what I believe the Lord has taught me through various means, including Bible school training, reading, studying, etc. I have done my best to be honest with myself and with the Lord in my studies, so I teach with a clear conscience. In my view, kids are fleeing because the pastors got too milk-soppy in their teaching and preaching. They started emphasizing "ministry" and "service" over doctrine. Doctrine is what keeps them coming. But too many preachers are afraid to lay on the meat of the word because they might "offend" some people, or they don't think their people can handle it or something. Well, they won't GROW properly if they are not FED properly. Once sound Bible doctrine is emphasized, then the word of God starts making more sense as they can see how everything fits together. The emphasis seems to be on serving in crazy, invented "ministries" instead of a close, personal relationship with the Lord through private prayer, private bible reading, private Bible study, and then living the consistent Christian life before a lost world. Yes, soul-winning is great - and as you said, not salesmanship or mental manipulation. But anyone can witness at any time during the week - why wait around for the scheduled, "official" church "soul-winning" night? I love our Baptist heritage and history, and I read as much of it as I can. I think we have much in common - all I ask is a little more respect instead of those awful insults. In Christ,
The Satanism I am referring to, in the Scofield Reference, is the claim that the KJV is mistranslated. Is this not Satanic? P.M. me, about Grady. Please. I hope that I am wrong, really. I thank God for that man, and love him dearly. Maybe you have some insight, I don't want to air it out here. Read the Book theme, in the Scofield Reference, at the beginning of 11Thes. He whined that he couldn't properly teach the pretrib from the book, because it was mistranslated. Even he admitted that 2Thes, in the KJV , didn't teach 2 separate "raptures". He just blamed the translators, instead of his hero, Darby. In doing so, He cast doubt on the Word, and exposed the roots of the Pre-Trib hoax....the Bible correctors. Anishinaabe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Prophet

1.  I do not know of any man that has ever lived that had every single thing correct - whether it be doctrine or how they lived

2.  Yes, Scofield "corrected" the Bible in places, and this is the old nature that pops out in every saved sinner.  Every commentator that has ever written -with very few exceptions - has this propensity.  In their zeal to expound the word of God to help the saints, sometimes they overreach and try to "help God out."  So Scofield is not the only guilty party here.  No doubt, there are men who hold to your position that do the same thing - but I am not willing to call them "Satanic."  It is the old nature, plain and simple.  It is just an over-reach in the level of attack. 

3.  Anything written by man has some amount of leaven in it.  In my view, Scofield had some good ideas, so much so that for the most part I think the Scofield reference Bible is one of the best on the market - but it does have its prOBlems, just as ANYTHING written by man does, no matter what position they write from.  Does this make ALL writings of man "Satanic?" 

 

Look, I read Matthew Henry's commentary, who holds to replacement theology - but man, there is some good - GREAT - material in there, particularly in application.  I am not willing to call it Satanic because of the occasional place where he might "correct" the KJV, or teach something I don't agree with.  That is my point.

 

Yes, correcting the Bible stems from the devil himself - I get that.  But there is a difference between an honest, sincere, servant of the Lord who gets offbase OCCASIONALLY - as David, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Peter, James, John, and Paul did - and an outright servant of the devil - like Ahab, Judas Iscariot, Westcott, Hort, and Cardinal Martini (one of the editors of the Nestle-Aland Greek Text.  Martini is a Roman Catholic bishop.) 

Scofield got offbase occasionally - who does not? 

Satanic? 

Over the top, brother.

 

Just remember that the next time YOU slip up, and YOUR old nature comes out.  Does it make YOU Satanic?

 

In Christ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Prophet
1. I do not know of any man that has ever lived that had every single thing correct - whether it be doctrine or how they lived
2. Yes, Scofield "corrected" the Bible in places, and this is the old nature that pops out in every saved sinner. Every commentator that has ever written -with very few exceptions - has this propensity. In their zeal to expound the word of God to help the saints, sometimes they overreach and try to "help God out." So Scofield is not the only guilty party here. No doubt, there are men who hold to your position that do the same thing - but I am not willing to call them "Satanic." It is the old nature, plain and simple. It is just an over-reach in the level of attack.
3. Anything written by man has some amount of leaven in it. In my view, Scofield had some good ideas, so much so that for the most part I think the Scofield reference Bible is one of the best on the market - but it does have its prOBlems, just as ANYTHING written by man does, no matter what position they write from. Does this make ALL writings of man "Satanic?"

Look, I read Matthew Henry's commentary, who holds to replacement theology - but man, there is some good - GREAT - material in there, particularly in application. I am not willing to call it Satanic because of the occasional place where he might "correct" the KJV, or teach something I don't agree with. That is my point.

Yes, correcting the Bible stems from the devil himself - I get that. But there is a difference between an honest, sincere, servant of the Lord who gets offbase OCCASIONALLY - as David, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Peter, James, John, and Paul did - and an outright servant of the devil - like Ahab, Judas Iscariot, Westcott, Hort, and Cardinal Martini (one of the editors of the Nestle-Aland Greek Text. Martini is a Roman Catholic bishop.)
Scofield got offbase occasionally - who does not?
Satanic?
Over the top, brother.

Just remember that the next time YOU slip up, and YOUR old nature comes out. Does it make YOU Satanic?

In Christ,

If I attack the Scriptures, in order to teach my pet doctrine, yes, it makes that attack Satanic.

I stand by my evaluation, that Scofield, under Satan's influence, cast such doubt on the Scriptures here, that several generations stumbled over it.

I see it as the work of the evil one.

It is on a par with, and a partner to, Wescott and Hort.


Anishinaabe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Prophet,

I have attempted to show you how unreasonable you are in these statements.  They absurdly over the top, and fail to take into consideration the entire life's work of a person, instead of highlighting their human failures.  I even gave Scriptural examples - you can't get much worse than Peter denying the Lord on 3 occasions, but the Lord didn't cast him aside.  He forgave him and restored him.

Your hatred for dispensationalism has given you a blind eye to some things, and you are lumping things together that don't belong together. 

 

It is too bad you can't be more reasonable about this because I think that we are very close on many issues outside of dispensationalism.  It would be one thing if you presented your case more reasonably, but when you constantly lay the blame at Scofield's feet, and constantly overlook the REAL Bible perverters like Westcott and Hort, and then even go so far as to say that Scofield's work was Satanic???? 

 

That's just too much for me.  That's why I put you on my ignore list to begin with....but I was hopeful we could get past that point. 

 

So, happy soul-winning, and may the Lord's blessing be on your ministry. 

Romans 14:4 "...to his own master he standeth or falleth..."

 

In Christ,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Prophet, I have attempted to show you how unreasonable you are in these statements. They absurdly over the top, and fail to take into consideration the entire life's work of a person, instead of highlighting their human failures. I even gave Scriptural examples - you can't get much worse than Peter denying the Lord on 3 occasions, but the Lord didn't cast him aside. He forgave him and restored him. Your hatred for dispensationalism has given you a blind eye to some things, and you are lumping things together that don't belong together. It is too bad you can't be more reasonable about this because I think that we are very close on many issues outside of dispensationalism. It would be one thing if you presented your case more reasonably, but when you constantly lay the blame at Scofield's feet, and constantly overlook the REAL Bible perverters like Westcott and Hort, and then even go so far as to say that Scofield's work was Satanic???? That's just too much for me. That's why I put you on my ignore list to begin with....but I was hopeful we could get past that point. So, happy soul-winning, and may the Lord's blessing be on your ministry. Romans 14:4 "...to his own master he standeth or falleth..." In Christ,
I'm always amazed at how people who claim to love God's Word side with those who attack it , when it suits them. Scofield preferred Westcott and Hort to Jesus, don't you get it? He sided with them, over the AV. And I'm blind? O well, run away. It takes courage to face the truth. Anishinaabe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Scofield preferred Westcott and Hort to Jesus, don't you get it? He sided with them, over the AV.

 

Okay, I really don't know much about Scofield, but from what I do know about him, that's a harsh statement and highly likely to be untrue. I think you're just trying to make a point, but exaggeration doesn't help the position any.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Nice....now I am a coward???

 

I see....glad to know that.

 

Salyan,

he really believes what he is saying is true.  The prOBlem is not his position as much as it is his lambasting of MY position, and then implying that I am a coward because I choose not to engage in a running "debate" - uh, rather, one-sided argument, with one side sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling at the top of his lungs. 

I don't have time for that....I have more than I can handle right now trying to keep up with everything on my plate.  Having rational discussions with those who are sincerely interested in learning - that's one thing.  Shouting contests????  Not for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Scofield was deceived like a lot of bible scholars, as well as regular Christian folks, about the issue of textual critcism. The time he lived was when the teachings of higher criticism began to really take off and many were swept off their feet.  It could be possible that if he were alive today things may be different. That being said, the difference between Scofield and Wescott/Hort was Scofield had a heart for the dissemination of truth while Wescott and Hort, in their own words, INTENTIONALLY set out to alter the words of God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Okay, I really don't know much about Scofield, but from what I do know about him, that's a harsh statement and highly likely to be untrue. I think you're just trying to make a point, but exaggeration doesn't help the position any.

Read the Slander of the Translators in the 2Thes. Intro, in a Scofield reference Bible.
I am interested in your reaction, in lightbof my accusation.

Anishinaabe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Nice thread.  Personally, I like the term "Independent" in the word Baptist.  It catches people's attention, then I can explain to them the various different Baptist churches throughout history.  As I recall, there are 26, and prOBably still growing.  ;)  I get into the false doctrine of many of these Baptist churches, and people want to know more about the IFB.  I am also godly proud of the word Baptist.  I like wearing the tag.  We have such a rich history, as everyone knows.  Why not share it with the lost, and also with anyone who is not IFB?

Brother Steve, my first pastor and I were talking about BOB Jones University on Wednesday night after service.  We also talked about Dr. Ruckman and David Cloud.  We don't get into the mess with the "camps" where I live.  Both men have contributed greatly to the word of God.  He also told me that before I came to my church, David Cloud preached a sermon one morning.  The saints loved it.

 

Also, I am sure that everyone knows that Dr. James Beller went home to be with the Lord a couple of weeks ago.  I loved his book on Baptist history, "America in Crimson Red."  What an eyeopener!  Has anyone read his book, "The Coming Destruction of the Baptists?"  That is one I would love to read, as well.  Dr. Beller was a Facebook friend of mine, and helped me witness to Muslims on my Timeline.

"God doesn't make perfect men of God, He makes willing men." ~ Author Unknown   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I did not know that Br. Beller went home to be with the Lord!  My!  We have lost a great friend to the Baptist cause.

I have read the book you referred to and it is good.  Basically it talks about how Baptists are losing their identity because they don't know their Biblical roots and history.  It also discusses how evangelical history replaced Baptist history in the schools - even Baptist schools. 

Good book.  Worth reading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Yes.  He contracted Meningitis which affected his heart.  He had open heart surgery and was doing well for a bit.  Then, he died suddenly.  We certainly have Steve!  

Isn't that the truth, brother.  I cannot believe the number of Baptists that don't know our rich history.  Some people have no idea that we didn't come out of Rome.  They think Baptists came out of the Protestant Reformation.  Many Baptist colleges are on shaky ground.  That is why I am a firm believer in an institute in the local IFB church.  Although, some IFB's have no choice but to send their children to Baptist schools, as there is no college in their church or any church nearby.  I am thankful that we have two wonderful Bible institutes in IFB churches in my area.  

Thank you for giving me a summary of his book, "The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...