Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Ukulelemike

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

Recommended Posts

I Thess 4:16-17

v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."  RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING.  They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

 

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely.  We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."  I don't see a prOBlem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen.  the Bible term in this passage is "caught up."  People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

Read the Olivet prophecy e.g. -

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done

The great tribulation preceeds the destruction that took place in the life of many.    

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

Read before "realizing." Jesus very clearly warns about the destruction & the great tribulation, & he gives clear instructions about how to recognise the signs when they should flee the city - as history records they did.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

How do you understand the words of Jesus when, speaking against the Jewish leaders (who recognised what he was saying against them) said, Mark 12:And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Paul writes of that in this way: 1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God

which in Judæa are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

That ad 70 event ENDS the wrath of God against "this generation." Why should a just & loving God perpetuate wrath against his people for 100 generations for the guilt of others? The Gospel is open to the Jews until Jesus returns despite the hate of corrupt churches down the ages. Jews are welcomed by the Gospel of Jesus when they come as sinners to him. And NO! God is not planning the future slaughter of them in a future trib. Unbelievers will be judged when Jesus comes for the resurrection/rapture for the saints. They will then suffer endless tribulation in hell.

2 Thes. 1:seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  

  Must go.

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Thess 4:16-17
v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first." RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING. They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely. We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." I don't see a prOBlem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen. the Bible term in this passage is "caught up." People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.

My point was you can't cross reference the non-Scriptural word "rapture".
Because the event is a Resurrection, you can cross reference that word.



Anishinaabe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow.  I've not read through all of this, but quite honestly, I don't bother myself with end times theology.  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  All else is just conjecture about what will likely happen long after we have passed from this earth. It is nothing to get worked up over.  :-)  What will come will come.  We have no control and no input into the matter.  All we can control is ourselves and our attitudes. 

KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of twists and a major loss of consistency, which is what usually happens after 3 or 4 pages on a thread. It gets too demanding to follow as one wades through. In addition what you have is 1 or a couple of posters that dominate (nothing wrong with that, just saying) the conversation but they take on 2 or 3 other posters and it´s 1 guy arguing with 3 or 4 other guys over 2 or 3 other rabbit trails and the entirety continuity of the thread falls apart.

 

7 pages ago I asked you Mike where does the JCOC fit. You sort of played the importance of that down as if it really doesn´t matter.

But i does. It matters so much that I have yet to receive an answer form any pre wrath, post trib position to date.

You can´t place it in your scheme as it will demonstrate the fallacy of your position.

 

So, I still would like an answer.

 

Or at least encourage you to try to find it for yourself. If you did and do, you will dump the untenable potion you hold.

 

When does the JCOC occur?

 

In addition, I have not questioned your Christianity or salvation and neither has any one else here. You suggested that we question your IFB status, your faith etc. None of which is true.

In fact I mad eit a point to say that I don´t question your integrity or character as I do not know you personally and that is and never has been an issue.

 

I do wonder however why you seek to moderate a board that you are not in agreement with? Pre trib is the stated doctrinal position of this board. I also question why Matt has not weighed in on this OBvious conflict of interest.

 

Pre trib, pre wrath, post trib are by no means tests of fellowship, or a true test of one´s relationship with the Lord.

 

As a missionary I plant churches, then as they grow, mature and become autonomous I seek God´s will for a replacement of myself to lead the flock. Mike, I don´t care how faithful you might have been to the Lord, how active in the work and what a grand testimony you might have before the brethren. I would not however consider you as a candidate to any church that I have personally planted. How could I? What would that convey to the church I have pastored for x amount of years? Would that not necessarily be a major contradiction of myself before the flock?

 

Your position by my way of understanding is dead wrong, you haven´t been able to prove anything other than the fact that your ability to distinguish between the church, the Jew and the gentile is faulty. That seems to me to be the major failing of all Rosenthal induced positions, (Yes,... he is the gran daddy of your eschatology boy and girls).

 

Any one who confuses Matthew 24 with 1 Thess is not a very thorough Bible student.,

 

God bless,

calvary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   

 

Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?

 

My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

Am I a Roman Catholic?  LOL  Far from it.  I left the RCC (in my mind) in the second grade.  By ninth grade, I convinced my parents that I didn't need to go faithfully, anymore.  My precious family has been sent to hell, b/c of the false doctrine of the RCC.  I have mentioned this before, but they are my biggest burden.

I also dabbled in witchcraft.  Not very heavily, but I did get Tarot Cards read, talk on physic hotlines, where I spent lots of money, and I used to do Tarot Cards for my friends, before the Lord took my down with a medical prOBlem in 1997.  I was the "Good Witch" telling people have wonderful their lives would be.  I thought it was harmless, but it wasn't.  My sister also dabbles in the occult, however, she is into haunted houses and mediums.  Many RCC's are into witchcraft, which stems from "substantiation" on the pulpit of the RCC.  Everyone I know who is into witchcraft, had or has ties to the RCC.  This is just part of my testimony, Al.  

Anyway, that is the primary point of my post.  

Edited by candlelight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

 

So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Candlelight:

 

That saying is common to all Christian belief.  It dates back centuries and centuries.  Christians have been saying it from generation to generation.  It is a tradition, yet it is well rooted in Scripture.  It comes from Scripture. Not the exact wording, but the doctrine. It the essence of the Gospel.  Christ has died.  True?  Yes.  Christ has risen.  True?  Yes. Christ will come again.  True?  Yes.

 

So what is wrong with saying it? 

Disclaimer: I attend an Anglican church, and we say this every week right before Communion, which I find to be a lovely reminder and reaffirmation of our faith.  But we often said it in the last Baptist church I attended as well.  I think it is said in most liturgical churches.  Yes, it is said in Catholic churches, but I've heard it in Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican....I could go on.  But it is an essential truth at the heart of Christianity. 

Edited by kindofblue1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.

 

Certainly the Roman Catholic Church does not get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God.  That is my point, Al.  In the thread that Ukelemike posted, I wrote out what my husband and I will be doing for the Lord in a year and a half.  Please read it.  Thank you:)  Anyway, in that post, I mentioned that we will be going to Scotland 2 times a year to help our missionary friends build another church over there.  They want me to help, b/c Scotland is filled with witchcraft. Anyway, my sister and I talk on the phone all the time.  The other day she called me and asked what was up.  I told her.  She immediately said, "Oh, they are Protestants" in a snarky manner.  It should be no secret how the RCC feels about the Protestants.  LOL  I closed my mouth, didn't argue, and changed the subject.

Yes, we all use phrases not found in the Bible.  I do it all the time.  The phase that KOB posted, immediately took me back to the RCC.  I was raised in public school in the late 60's, 70's, and 80's.  The public school system taught evolution.  The only thing I knew about God was from the RCC.  I went to CCD classes from 1-6 grade at an RCC church.  That was once a week.  In 7-8th grade I went to a charismatic RCC church for parochial school.  While I am very grateful I learned about God and Jesus, my head was spinning.  I floundered away for years, until my medical prOBlem hit in 1997.  By 1998, a Baptist man, started sharing the gospel with me.  He is a wonderful man of God.  I grew up with him, and he was a wild one.  I couldn't believe the change in him.  When he found out about my dabbling in the occult, he took me to the verses in Deuteronomy and told me I was walking on the dark side.  It hit me like a brick.  At that time, my future MIL started witnessing to me.  I thought I was saved in 1998, when I recited the "Sinner's Prayer" at my bedside that this man had me do.  That was in March of 1998.  I thought I was saved.  I married my husband in 2000, as I thought I was saved.  I was merely gaining head knowledge, in my IFB church.  I was saved, on May 10, 2003, on Mother's Day Weekend in the hospital, after an Epileptic seizure.  My head and my heart were in line.  I used to suffer from fever related seizures, as a child.  My first seizure was at 6 months old.  The last one was when I was 12.  They came back, due to stress, from teaching for 18 years in the Cleveland Municipal School District.  That year, I was able to get a medical retirement from the CMSD.  The system was getting worse, and my boss suggested I put in for a retirement.  They retired over 300 teachers that year, on medical disabilities.  

Again, just sharing my testimony...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Candlelight:

 

That saying is common to all Christian belief.  It dates back centuries and centuries.  Christians have been saying it from generation to generation.  It is a tradition, yet it is well rooted in Scripture.  It comes from Scripture. Not the exact wording, but the doctrine. It the essence of the Gospel.  Christ has died.  True?  Yes.  Christ has risen.  True?  Yes. Christ will come again.  True?  Yes.

 

So what is wrong with saying it? 

Disclaimer: I attend an Anglican church, and we say this every week right before Communion, which I find to be a lovely reminder and reaffirmation of our faith.  But we often said it in the last Baptist church I attended as well.  I think it is said in most liturgical churches.  Yes, it is said in Catholic churches, but I've heard it in Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican....I could go on.  But it is an essential truth at the heart of Christianity. 

 

Okay, KOB.  I have never said it in my IFB church, as it in not in the KJV or any MV.  If I am wrong, please show me.  Thank you:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly the Roman Catholic Church does not get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God.  That is my point, Al.

 

Oh, right. So you were actually saying that using words and phrases that Roman Catholics use is no bad thing, so long, of course, as the words/phrases are true. 
 
Do you know what, it's a funny thing but when I read your post I thought you were saying 180 degrees opposite of that. I thought you were saying that using man-made phrases that the RCC use and moreover aren't in the KJV was something to avoid. My mistake, sorry about that Candlelight!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Oh, right. So you were actually saying that using words and phrases that Roman Catholics use is no bad thing, so long, of course, as the words/phrases are true. 
 
Do you know what, it's a funny thing but when I read your post I thought you were saying 180 degrees opposite of that. I thought you were saying that using man-made phrases that the RCC use and moreover aren't in the KJV was something to avoid. My mistake, sorry about that Candlelight!

 

 

I just got your post in the other thread, Al.  No prOBlem, brother:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Candlelight,

 

I am sorry if I triggered some bad memories for you.  That was not my intention. I just said a common saying that is filled with truth, and did not realize it would trigger negative thoughts. 

 

No, it is not word for word from the Bible, but each of the three statements is true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wretched:

The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

Reading any single passage before Rev. 20 we do not see a future millennial dispensation.

 

The general teaching of the OT prophecy is that Messiah will bring about an endless kingdom-age for Israel, at peace & untroubled by the nations. Always God is specially concerned with "my people" as in such Scriptures as Ez. 36 & Jer. 23 -

Jer. 23:Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

 

Ez. 36: 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

Messiah came, & completed his redeeming work by his suffering, death & resurrection. Peace was proclaimed to Israel from Pentecost onwards, & many thousands believed. God was fulfilling his prophecies, as Peter explained, but was God restoring the kingdom to Israel as the Apostles had asked?

 

In Acts 3, Peter quotes Moses - Deut. 18; John in Mat. 3 alludes to Mal. 4. Those who welcome their Messiah inherit the blessings. Those who reject him suffer the curse, & the wrath of God. 

 

The questions arising are: did Jesus do what was prophesied for those who received him? Or did the double rejection by the Jewish leaders frustrate God's plan & purpose, causing the prophesied blessings to be postponed to a future millennial dispensation?

 

When Peter quotes Moses under inspiration, he restates the prophetic warning with emphasis:

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

Notice also that Peter tells the people that the prophets are prophesying these days.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

Peter further reminds them of the first promise to Abraham of the blessing of the families of earth. God knew that they would reject their Messiah - AND persecute the Apostles. See Mat. 24. That rejection did not cause God to delay his plans for blessing Israel - see Acts 3:26. We need to read carefully to see if what happened in Acts was the fulfilemnt of prophecy. OBviously it wasn't what the Apostles expected in Acts 1, nor was it what the Jews expected of their Messiah.

 

In his first letter, Peter applies the blessings of Ex. 19 to the church. (1 Pet. 2) & in Rev. 1, Jesus assures his suffering people of their status, again alluding to Ex. 19.

Now therefore, if ye will OBey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

 

1 Pet. 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

 

Rev. 1:and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

We are not therefore looking for a millennial fulfilment of prophecy, but we need to see the ultimate fulfilment in a perfect NH&NE, & the present Gospel age as a time of calling the redeemed to God for salvation by new birth, through tribulation to glory - glory of souls in heaven, & in the resurrection in the NH&NE. Notice how the "my people - your God" promise of Lev. 26 is perfectly fulfilled in Rev. 21:

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

But that is after the Rev. 20 millennium, so how should we understand the millennium? Note first who dwells there:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John sees SOULS, not resurrection bodies - but their status is priests, reigning with Christ. Their status in heaven is the same as our status on earth, but their heavenly reign is not opposed by the ungodly as our earthly reign is. We are ambassadors on earth for our heavenly King in a world that rejects his authority & our status. So we suffer tribulation here as John & his companions did. (Rev. 1)

 

We as believers have experienced the first resurrection, aka new birth. Jesus teaches in John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That is salvation - we have new life in Christ.

 

Jesus continues by referring to a second, general resurrection:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That second resurrection is of ALL, in an hour, NOT separated by 1000 years.

 

The millennial reign is for the souls of believers in heaven & is their present experience, concurrent with the Gospel age on earth.

 

Satan IS restrained, Jesus the Lion-Lamb defeated him at Calvary, the nations do have the Gospel preached from the Apostolic time onwards, & Satan's captives are being freed. He will be released for a final rebellion before the coming of Christ for final judgement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

I guess a preterist would think animals being in a zoo together would qualify as a fulfillment of Isaiah 11. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except you didn't give asny reasons the rapture can't be after the tribulation. Keep in mind, I am talking about a post-trib/pre wrath position, because the Bible clearly shows a separation, or, if you will, a portion OF the tribuation as being the outpouring of wrath. It is before this that I see the rapture occurring, NOT all the way at the end when Jesus returns. So maybe you have misuderstood my point from the start.

  Your primary point, I believe, as to why it couldn't be, was because, when would the judgment be? I answered that, and you ignored my reply. So I reiterated it and expanded it. You said the rev 14 events were prOBably one event, not two, I explained why they were clearly two events and bult upon that. You said trump doesn equal trumpet, I explained why it must..

 

Allow me to repeat, verbatim, errors of spelling included, from my answer to what you asked, which perhaps you missed some of:

 

"Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology."  ,

 

So maybe tell me why you assume all believers must be judged at one time for the works of their lives. Tell me why there is an assumption that perhaps there won't be time, if time appears to mean nothing in scripture.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Where do you see the rapture occurring before the wrath in chapter 6?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Where do you see the rapture occurring before the wrath in chapter 6?
Rev 6:16-17 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "Shall be able is future". They are looking up at the Lamb in the Sky, realizing that the Wrath is finally come, it is here. This is kick- off day. The Piper is here to be payed. The dung is here, to hit the fan. Chapter 7 begins the pouring out. After the Saints, who are not appointed to Wrath, are gathered unto the bridegroom. Anishinaabe Edited by prophet1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rev 6:16-17 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "Shall be able is future". They are looking up at the Lamb in the Sky, realizing that the Wrath is finally come, it is here. This is kick- off day. The Piper is here to be payed. The dung is here, to hit the fan. Chapter 7 begins the pouring out. After the Saints, who are not appointed to Wrath, are gathered unto the bridegroom. Anishinaabe

 

So everyone is upset with each other over chapter 4:1 vs chapter 6:16?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

 

Pesky little words - starting with Rev. 1 - things which must shortly come to pass; ..... for the time is at hand. OBviously not 2000 years in the distant future. And what about the 70 weeks (generally understood as 70x7 years) - the OBvious end point by literal arithmetic is 7 years after Jesus anointing - when the Jewish leaders were denounced as "uncircumcised" & the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles without circumcision. Jesus takes up that prophecy & relates it to the destruction. 40 years of grace followed the end of the 70 weeks.

 

And what happens to pottery when it is ruled with a rod of iron? And the grapes -

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

Of course God is NOT a liar but where do you read the words you confidently assert the Lord says? The present millennium (now 2x1000 years) shows that God is gracious, allowing abundant time for repentance.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Why then do you change "souls" to read bodily resurrection? Do you reject what John sees & records? Do YOU make God a liar? I'm sure you do not, but you DO overlook the plain meaning of words.

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

 

They OBviously DID come to pass, literally - thousands of Jews repented & formed the church, at first comprising only believing Israelites, but the leaders rejected the Gospel of grace - & perished. And when he does come, ALL will be fulfilled to perfection. And of course the promises to Abraham are fulfilled by the salvation of Jews & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.  All being prepared for the perfect new creation of Isaiah 11.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Candlelight,

 

I am sorry if I triggered some bad memories for you.  That was not my intention. I just said a common saying that is filled with truth, and did not realize it would trigger negative thoughts. 

 

No, it is not word for word from the Bible, but each of the three statements is true.

That's alright, KOB.  I know it was not your intention.  It is part of my testimony.  Since we will be in Scotland twice a year, I must strengthen and prepare myself for what lies ahead in the next 1 1/2 years.  I am more concerned about my sister.  She loved watching ghost stories growing up.  I didn't.  She visits haunted houses and talks with mediums.  It is upsetting to hear, as she is a devout RCC.  She has had the gospel shared with her so many times.  She actually lives in the Bible Belt of OH.  I thought she got saved, years ago, before me in fact (when I was being spiritually drawn), but she follows this pope and everything that has to do with the RCC.  She comes up to Cleveland, once a week, and goes to the Jesuit Retreat House for classes on the east side of town.  I don't think I need to tell you that the Jesuits are the "hit men" or murderers in the RCC.  Would you please pray for her salvation?  Just send me a private message and I will tell you her name.  :)   

While it is a common saying, filled with truth, I would still like to see the actually words, in any Bible, on earth.  BTW, what kind of Baptist church did you go to growing up?  I can't remember.  Thanks in advance:)        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Covenanter

Pesky Little words

Rev. 1:1 "...things which must shortly come to pass..."

1.  Did everything in Revelation come to pass?  Not by a long shot.  Now your theology DEMANDS that it DID, so you invent creative interpretations of Revelation make it appear that most of the book is in the past.  But it is quite clear that the vast majority of Revelation has NOT come to pass. 

2.  This phrase is easily resolved with II Peter 3:8, "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Two thoughts here:

a.  This is such an important concept that Peter draws our attention to it by reminding us that we are not to be ignorant of this fact.  So pay attention!  The Lord counts time differently than we do!  Don't be ignorant of this! 

b.  If II Peter 3:8 is true, then 2,000 years on our time scale is only 2 days to the Lord.  So "things which must shortly come to pass" on God's time table of 2 days is nothing.

 

Now, you did a lot of fancy dancing up there in your last post, but you completely overlooked some important words. 

For Instance:

Acts 1:11 "...this same Jesus...shall so come in like manner..." 

The promise given was that Jesus Christ would return physically and visibly to THIS EARTH, and that He would be seen PHYSICALLY by men. 

That has not yet happened.  The promise is not about the NH&NE - it is referring to THIS earth, prior to the NH&NE.

 

Second,

You say the prophecies quoted by PEter in Acts 2-3 were literally fulfilled.  The evidence you gave is twofold: (1) He quoted the prophets, therefore they must have been fulfilled; (2) Jews and jewish proselytes were saved.

PrOBlem: (1) As I stated, just because Peter quoted the OT Prophets does not mean that the fulfillment came true.  It is OBvious from a plain reading of the text, with no theological bias, that the prophecies did NOT come true literally.

(2) The OT prophecies had nothing to do with people getting saved.  The OT prophecies were about the Jewish Messiah appearing visibly ON EARTH, and establishing a physical kingdom, and reigning over the entire planet from Jerusalem.  This has not been fulfilled.  Your responses concerning Christ ruling from Heaven deny the plain text of OT Scripture of Christ reigning on the EARTH, which is what the Jews were looking for - and quite deservedly.  (Acts 1:6).

 

Third

You never addressed Revelation 19 - the return of Christ to the earth - this present earth - in a physical body, and establishing a physical Kingdom. 

You never addressed the fact that the phrase "one thousand years" is repeated SIX TIMES in Revelation 20 - that is a very specific number.  The heavy repetition only emphasizes the fact that the number is not a generic term for "a long time" but rather a specific statement as to the duration of Christ's reign on THIS EARTH prior to the establishment of the NH&NE.  This present universe is not destroyed until AFTER this 1,000 year reign of Christ - Rev. 20:10-15, II Peter 3:8-13. 

 

How did I come to this conclusion?  By simply reading the text, and believing what it says, as it says it, where it says it.  I did not change one thing, invent one thing, add one thing, or subtract one thing.  I did not invent any crazy definitions - I let the words stand as they are in the text.  Let's forget about trying to figure out what the text "means" and just let it say what it says! 

 

You can respond if you want to, but I prOBably won't....too much going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So everyone is upset with each other over chapter 4:1 vs chapter 6:16?

Chapter 4:1 isn't a prophecy, it isn't a metaphor, it is a chronicle of an actual event that happened to one man, unless the Scripture gives us reason to believe otherwise.

The argument is over rightly dividing the word of truth.

Some want to take the plain words in Matthew 24, and assign them to some dispensation, as if Jesus told men who were going to turn the world upside down some information that they, the Apostles of the Church, would not need.
In essence, they are charging Jesus with lying to the 12.

Anishinaabe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sure that the 12 apostles assumed that the words Jesus spoke to them in Matthew 24 were directed at them, and that they would see these events come to pass in their lifetime. 

Guess what?  Those events did NOT come to pass in their lifetime.  John continues the Revelation after all of the apostles were dead and gone, himself excepted.  Therefore, we must conclude that the events of Matthew 24 are still in the future.  No amount of historical twisting will fix that.

 

IN Christ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 38 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...