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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

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Ukulelemike
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Anyone who cannot see the blatant differences in how God has dealt with man throughout the ages of HIStory and into the future, is completely brainwashed by men. Men call it dispensationalism, I call it rightly dividing His Word (I call it that because God calls it that).

 

IMO, anyone who blends the Bible all together to attempt to serve the Lord or understand the Word stays in a constant state of confusion and actually seems to stay in a constant state of denial about their confusion.

Huh?

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I'm pretrib and most of the IFB I know in real life are pretrib. For some reason there is a group of Reformed that like to hang out here. I choose not to debate them.

What about us Ind. Baptists that aren't carried away with the popular doctrine-of-the-week?
Care to debate the Scriptures with us?

Anishinaabe

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Gorship

Don't feel alone.  When I first joined this forum a few years ago, I debated these guys.  But I soon learned that it is the same people pushing their agenda at any and every opportunity.  When they are confronted with the specific wording of the text, they can't handle it, and allegorize it away.  Of course, they can't see it, and they deny it, and then they accuse US of changing the Scriptures.  So the whole "debate" becomes fruitless....same arguments with the same people going 'round and 'round in the same circles.  So I, as Matthew has stated, have chosen to largely ignore them as well....there does not seem to be much edification in these endless debates.   They have an agenda, and will not rest until they cram it down our throats.

 

Prophet

I have debated your cohorts in times past.  I can say from experience that the previous debates revealed that they did not in fact want to debate the Scriptures - they have in times past ignored the plain wording of the Scriptures.  And you are one to talk....every time this debate comes up, the first thing out of your "mouth" is not Scripture, but attacks via "guilt by association" by name calling, and labelling us as "Darbyites" etc. 

 

The IFB churches I was raised in were all moderate dispensationalists and pre-tribulation rapture of the church.  Most IFB's WERE, and I think many still are. 

 

In Christ,

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Gorship

Don't feel alone.  When I first joined this forum a few years ago, I debated these guys.  But I soon learned that it is the same people pushing their agenda at any and every opportunity.  When they are confronted with the specific wording of the text, they can't handle it, and allegorize it away.  Of course, they can't see it, and they deny it, and then they accuse US of changing the Scriptures.  So the whole "debate" becomes fruitless....same arguments with the same people going 'round and 'round in the same circles.  So I, as Matthew has stated, have chosen to largely ignore them as well....there does not seem to be much edification in these endless debates.   They have an agenda, and will not rest until they cram it down our throats.

 

Prophet

I have debated your cohorts in times past.  I can say from experience that the previous debates revealed that they did not in fact want to debate the Scriptures - they have in times past ignored the plain wording of the Scriptures.  And you are one to talk....every time this debate comes up, the first thing out of your "mouth" is not Scripture, but attacks via "guilt by association" by name calling, and labelling us as "Darbyites" etc. 

 

The IFB churches I was raised in were all moderate dispensationalists and pre-tribulation rapture of the church.  Most IFB's WERE, and I think many still are. 

 

In Christ,

 

And yet you go on debating...

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Actually there is very little real debate on this forum. There is a lot of arguing but very little debate.

 

A few years ago the Admin of this site asked for a few volunteers to debate the pre trib rapture doctrine with the stated web sites position as being PRE TRIB.  i guess that has taken a back seat nowadays with post trib moderators and all.

 

Debate is listening to a point, then responding to the point made. By saying, I think what you said may have certain failing this is why-....

Arguing is not responding to a point made and just continuing with one´s opinion. By saying__________________ and not making any real reply to the point made beforehand.

 

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Notice that the opening comments state that the position of this board is PRE TRIB.

 

pastorj and I entered into a debate that was civil, considerate and to my way of thinking, very thorough and of course I believe that pastorj and I did "win" the debate.

 

Not much debating going on around here any more. Just a bunch of shouting each other down and snarky nonsense.

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The whole prOBlem as I see it is the refusal to recognize Israel's proper place in the future plan of God. Whatever position you hold on the nation of Israel will be reflected in your eschatology. A lot of this is really a heart issue toward the Jews. 

 

If you see the end of Israel in 70 AD and all her promises being sifted to the chuch then you will be a preterist/amillennialist. (The olive tree was chopped down, cast into the fire and a new tree planted.)

 

If you believe that God does have some future with Israel but you still fail to distinguish between them and the church then most likely you will hold a postmillennial/prewrath position. (The olive tree was grafted into the wild branches).

 

If you believe that God still has a future plan for the nation of Israel in restoring the kingdom to them then you will be a premillenialist. (The wild branches were grafted into the olive tree).  

 

People forget that the bible is a Jewish book and we Gentiles (which the church mostly consists of) were merely grafted into the covenants and promises given to Israel. We weren't granted the license to hijack them.

 

The proper placement of Israel is mandatory and should be first in foremost when rightly dividing the word of truth. The ONLY exception is in the Pauline epistles. Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Gorship
Don't feel alone. When I first joined this forum a few years ago, I debated these guys. But I soon learned that it is the same people pushing their agenda at any and every opportunity. When they are confronted with the specific wording of the text, they can't handle it, and allegorize it away. Of course, they can't see it, and they deny it, and then they accuse US of changing the Scriptures. So the whole "debate" becomes fruitless....same arguments with the same people going 'round and 'round in the same circles. So I, as Matthew has stated, have chosen to largely ignore them as well....there does not seem to be much edification in these endless debates. They have an agenda, and will not rest until they cram it down our throats.

Prophet
I have debated your cohorts in times past. I can say from experience that the previous debates revealed that they did not in fact want to debate the Scriptures - they have in times past ignored the plain wording of the Scriptures. And you are one to talk....every time this debate comes up, the first thing out of your "mouth" is not Scripture, but attacks via "guilt by association" by name calling, and labelling us as "Darbyites" etc.

The IFB churches I was raised in were all moderate dispensationalists and pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Most IFB's WERE, and I think many still are.

In Christ,

No one can read my posts, and not see that I debate with Scripture.
Yes, I have pointed out those false teachers who propogated the heresy that now permeates the IFB for one reason.
Simply to show a relationship between two men who didn't believe that the KJV is Perfect, and the doctrines they espoused, and how they descended from Calvinism, etc.

Anyone who is honest, will admit that Darby and Scofield put dispensational and pretrib doctrines on the map for American Baptists.
Add Spurgeon's endorsement of Calvin, and we are well on our way.

These men made Torrey, and Rice, and other Bible Correctors more palatable, and they in turn, pushed the pretrib.

So my point is to show causation.
To tie in the doubting of God's Word to false doctrine.

Go back and read my posts.
Aside from an occasional history lesson, they are mostly Scripture.

The biggest hang up, in this debate, is the one that says 'Jesus was talking to Israel, in Matthew 24, when He clearly made every effort to show us that He wasn't.

Rev2&3 are written to churches, who are right on some things, wrong on others.

Anishinaabe

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The whole prOBlem as I see it is the refusal to recognize Israel's proper place in the future plan of God. Whatever position you hold on the nation of Israel will be reflected in your eschatology. A lot of this is really a heart issue toward the Jews.

If you see the end of Israel in 70 AD and all her promises being sifted to the chuch then you will be a preterist/amillennialist. (The olive tree was chopped down, cast into the fire and a new tree planted.)

If you believe that God does have some future with Israel but you still fail to distinguish between them and the church then most likely you will hold a postmillennial/prewrath position. (The olive tree was grafted into the wild branches).

If you believe that God still has a future plan for the nation of Israel in restoring the kingdom to them then you will be a premillenialist. (The wild branches were grafted into the olive tree).

People forget that the bible is a Jewish book and we Gentiles (which the church mostly consists of) were merely grafted into the covenants and promises given to Israel. We weren't granted the license to hijack them.

The proper placement of Israel is mandatory and should be first in foremost when rightly dividing the word of truth. The ONLY exception is in the Pauline epistles. Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles.

Post-millennial and Pre-Wrath are two vastly different positions.

Pre-Wrath position sees God as restoring Israel, when He Himself comes to reign, in His coming Kingdom of 1,000 years.
The saved, no matter their race, will be resurrected/ harvested alive from the Earth, before God pours out His Wrath on the rest of the Earth for taking the Mark/ annointing a false messiah.

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Anishinaabe

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It seems I've heard this demand before: "show me a single verse that shows ___________"

This is not the way the Holy Spirit has constructed Scripture.  There is no "single verse"

or "single chapter" that contains all the information about any major doctrine.

It's more like "here a little, there a little".

 

As far as Israel is concerned, the time-line is laid out in Daniel 9:24-27, and there is still one "missing" 7 year period.

Jesus refers twice to this prophecy - once in Matthew 24, and once in Mark 13, when he refers to the Abomination.

 

Now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, all these bits of information concerning the future role of Israel can be pieced-together.

Without the help of the Holy Spirit, you can come up with virtually any "doctrine" that you can possibly think of.
 

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  Mt. 24:14
Edited by beameup
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I apologize I've not contributed much here of late-I have much yet to say, but between getting my animals ready for auction, church, work and such, my computer time has been limited. At work now, so I am limited in what I can say now.

 

Its odd_I have been now compared to Reformed, Preterist and Charismatic because of my belief in the pre-wrath rapture. Honestly, these are all positions I am opposed to. I hold firmly that I AM IFB, though some here seem to assume that one can't possibly be IFB unless every IFB jot and tittle are held to. Remember, there is an "I" in that name-Independent.   Perhaps someone ought to start a thread about What makes an IFB, an IFB.  Because we all know there is a vast array of people with very different ways of doing things that are called IFB. In fact, a lot of the more influential churches in the movement are very much into leader-worship and carnival-style antics, and to NOT do things that way would have one much disqualified as an IFB, and get you thrown out of their churches, as well.

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I have tried to keep the conversation courteous & Scriptural. A key point is the date of Revelation, & I discussed this in #87.

 

The vision was given for the encouragement & blessing of real suffering Christians, not for end-timers to make a fortune with their speculative books & films.

 

Our conversation should likewise be for encouragement & blessing. We may not agree, but we can still give & take encouragement.

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Whatever position you hold on the nation of Israel will be reflected in your eschatology. A lot of this is really a heart issue toward the Jews. 

 

Well, Calvary's point is that how and why people hold the positions they do is irrelevant to a discussion about the positions themselves.

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Covenanter

I could almost believe you if you participated in other discussions.  Since the only thing you want to discuss is eschatology, then it is apparent that you have an agenda.  You apparently think that having a pleasant demeanor must mean something, but this is only a personality trait, and not necessarily a sign of spirituality.  A pastor must defend the flock from wolves so a pastor's demeanor is not always "pleasant."  It is apparent to me that the only reason you hang out here is to promote your preterist views, and you insist upon dominating any thread concerning end times events.

 

It is really too bad that an Independent Baptist Forum that takes a pre-trib position is so dominated by those who are opposed to that position.  It is so nauseating to me that it takes away the pleasure of posting here.

 

In Christ,

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The vision was given for the encouragement & blessing of real suffering Christians, not for end-timers to make a fortune with their speculative books & films.

 

 

It was given for those saints who will go through the Tribulation. 

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Well, Calvary's point is that how and why people hold the positions they do is irrelevant to a discussion about the positions themselves.

It is relevant because it shows what's really at the heart of the issue.

 

Romans 11:17-24

 

[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Covenanter

I could almost believe you if you participated in other discussions.  Since the only thing you want to discuss is eschatology, then it is apparent that you have an agenda.  You apparently think that having a pleasant demeanor must mean something, but this is only a personality trait, and not necessarily a sign of spirituality.  A pastor must defend the flock from wolves so a pastor's demeanor is not always "pleasant."  It is apparent to me that the only reason you hang out here is to promote your preterist views, and you insist upon dominating any thread concerning end times events.

 

It is really too bad that an Independent Baptist Forum that takes a pre-trib position is so dominated by those who are opposed to that position.  It is so nauseating to me that it takes away the pleasure of posting here.

 

In Christ,

 

That is so uncalled for.

 

Various 'thoughts', on what we believe, bring out our differences.

And that helps us be able to accept the fact that others might have something to add to what we don't already believe, or strengthen our own belief.

I have grown on this forum, and you, too, Bro. Steve, have been a help in those areas of discussion that I may still have need in strengthening. 

I hope all may learn a few things about the 'Independent' part of IFB.

We are not all the same.

 

And, we don't need to be.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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That's irrelevant. Both come to their conclusions from misapplying scriptures directed towards Israel.

Show the evidence.
I say the same of Pre-Trib, it is made up out of whole cloth.

JOB wasn't Israeli.

JOB 14:12
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.

But he knew that the resurrection takes place when Jesus told the Apostles of the Church it would:

Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


We all believe that God's Wrath is not for the Saved.

What PreTribbers stumble over, is when the Trib ends, and the Wrath begins.

And they think that God can't count:

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Trib Saints in the First Res....just like Jesus, n JOB, n Daniel, n Paul said.

Anishinaabe

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Covenanter

I could almost believe you if you participated in other discussions.  Since the only thing you want to discuss is eschatology, then it is apparent that you have an agenda.  You apparently think that having a pleasant demeanor must mean something, but this is only a personality trait, and not necessarily a sign of spirituality.  A pastor must defend the flock from wolves so a pastor's demeanor is not always "pleasant."  It is apparent to me that the only reason you hang out here is to promote your preterist views, and you insist upon dominating any thread concerning end times events.

 

It is really too bad that an Independent Baptist Forum that takes a pre-trib position is so dominated by those who are opposed to that position.  It is so nauseating to me that it takes away the pleasure of posting here.

 

In Christ,

That is NOT true Steve - have a look at "Covenanter's Content" & you will see my interest includes - music, humour, food & health, education, etc. A number of my posts have concerned a low carb diet approach to diabetes.

 

Only last evening I was addresing our local diabetes support group on my experience with a low carb, high fat diet - contrary to the professional approach that insists that carbs are essential for health. A doctor & 2 dieticians were present - I got cautious support from the doctor while the dietitians warned against what I recommended. Loss of brain function [don't you dare agree] & muscle wasting [i'm 75 & play lawn & table tennis - I wore my table tennis (local) Olympic gold] are included in the supposed dangers. The discussion will continue in a future meeting, & privately. That is an argument I am determined to win against the experts - who believe & teach what they have been taught. Six years ago I was becoming crippled & then I gave up eating carbs.

 

Certainly eschatology is a main interest because I consider that the political slant (Zionist) cause prOBlems & provokes persecution for indigenous Christians because Christianity is seen as western political rather than spiritual. Not just in Muslim countries, but also Hindu, Bhuddist, Atheist.

 

My posts counter the emphasis on "futurism" that lifts much of the New Testament from the present "dispensation" into a future millennium - where there is no such emphasis in Scripture. Certainly a glorious future is promised for all the redeemed, but we live now, & can trust our Saviour God to bring us to that glory.

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