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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

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Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

I guess a preterist would think animals being in a zoo together would qualify as a fulfillment of Isaiah 11. 

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Except you didn't give asny reasons the rapture can't be after the tribulation. Keep in mind, I am talking about a post-trib/pre wrath position, because the Bible clearly shows a separation, or, if you will, a portion OF the tribuation as being the outpouring of wrath. It is before this that I see the rapture occurring, NOT all the way at the end when Jesus returns. So maybe you have misuderstood my point from the start.

  Your primary point, I believe, as to why it couldn't be, was because, when would the judgment be? I answered that, and you ignored my reply. So I reiterated it and expanded it. You said the rev 14 events were prOBably one event, not two, I explained why they were clearly two events and bult upon that. You said trump doesn equal trumpet, I explained why it must..

 

Allow me to repeat, verbatim, errors of spelling included, from my answer to what you asked, which perhaps you missed some of:

 

"Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology."  ,

 

So maybe tell me why you assume all believers must be judged at one time for the works of their lives. Tell me why there is an assumption that perhaps there won't be time, if time appears to mean nothing in scripture.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Where do you see the rapture occurring before the wrath in chapter 6?

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Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Where do you see the rapture occurring before the wrath in chapter 6?
Rev 6:16-17 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "Shall be able is future". They are looking up at the Lamb in the Sky, realizing that the Wrath is finally come, it is here. This is kick- off day. The Piper is here to be payed. The dung is here, to hit the fan. Chapter 7 begins the pouring out. After the Saints, who are not appointed to Wrath, are gathered unto the bridegroom. Anishinaabe
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Rev 6:16-17 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "Shall be able is future". They are looking up at the Lamb in the Sky, realizing that the Wrath is finally come, it is here. This is kick- off day. The Piper is here to be payed. The dung is here, to hit the fan. Chapter 7 begins the pouring out. After the Saints, who are not appointed to Wrath, are gathered unto the bridegroom. Anishinaabe

 

So everyone is upset with each other over chapter 4:1 vs chapter 6:16?

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Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

 

Pesky little words - starting with Rev. 1 - things which must shortly come to pass; ..... for the time is at hand. OBviously not 2000 years in the distant future. And what about the 70 weeks (generally understood as 70x7 years) - the OBvious end point by literal arithmetic is 7 years after Jesus anointing - when the Jewish leaders were denounced as "uncircumcised" & the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles without circumcision. Jesus takes up that prophecy & relates it to the destruction. 40 years of grace followed the end of the 70 weeks.

 

And what happens to pottery when it is ruled with a rod of iron? And the grapes -

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God

 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

Of course God is NOT a liar but where do you read the words you confidently assert the Lord says? The present millennium (now 2x1000 years) shows that God is gracious, allowing abundant time for repentance.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Why then do you change "souls" to read bodily resurrection? Do you reject what John sees & records? Do YOU make God a liar? I'm sure you do not, but you DO overlook the plain meaning of words.

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

 

They OBviously DID come to pass, literally - thousands of Jews repented & formed the church, at first comprising only believing Israelites, but the leaders rejected the Gospel of grace - & perished. And when he does come, ALL will be fulfilled to perfection. And of course the promises to Abraham are fulfilled by the salvation of Jews & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.  All being prepared for the perfect new creation of Isaiah 11.

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Candlelight,

 

I am sorry if I triggered some bad memories for you.  That was not my intention. I just said a common saying that is filled with truth, and did not realize it would trigger negative thoughts. 

 

No, it is not word for word from the Bible, but each of the three statements is true.

That's alright, KOB.  I know it was not your intention.  It is part of my testimony.  Since we will be in Scotland twice a year, I must strengthen and prepare myself for what lies ahead in the next 1 1/2 years.  I am more concerned about my sister.  She loved watching ghost stories growing up.  I didn't.  She visits haunted houses and talks with mediums.  It is upsetting to hear, as she is a devout RCC.  She has had the gospel shared with her so many times.  She actually lives in the Bible Belt of OH.  I thought she got saved, years ago, before me in fact (when I was being spiritually drawn), but she follows this pope and everything that has to do with the RCC.  She comes up to Cleveland, once a week, and goes to the Jesuit Retreat House for classes on the east side of town.  I don't think I need to tell you that the Jesuits are the "hit men" or murderers in the RCC.  Would you please pray for her salvation?  Just send me a private message and I will tell you her name.  :)   

While it is a common saying, filled with truth, I would still like to see the actually words, in any Bible, on earth.  BTW, what kind of Baptist church did you go to growing up?  I can't remember.  Thanks in advance:)        

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Covenanter

Pesky Little words

Rev. 1:1 "...things which must shortly come to pass..."

1.  Did everything in Revelation come to pass?  Not by a long shot.  Now your theology DEMANDS that it DID, so you invent creative interpretations of Revelation make it appear that most of the book is in the past.  But it is quite clear that the vast majority of Revelation has NOT come to pass. 

2.  This phrase is easily resolved with II Peter 3:8, "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Two thoughts here:

a.  This is such an important concept that Peter draws our attention to it by reminding us that we are not to be ignorant of this fact.  So pay attention!  The Lord counts time differently than we do!  Don't be ignorant of this! 

b.  If II Peter 3:8 is true, then 2,000 years on our time scale is only 2 days to the Lord.  So "things which must shortly come to pass" on God's time table of 2 days is nothing.

 

Now, you did a lot of fancy dancing up there in your last post, but you completely overlooked some important words. 

For Instance:

Acts 1:11 "...this same Jesus...shall so come in like manner..." 

The promise given was that Jesus Christ would return physically and visibly to THIS EARTH, and that He would be seen PHYSICALLY by men. 

That has not yet happened.  The promise is not about the NH&NE - it is referring to THIS earth, prior to the NH&NE.

 

Second,

You say the prophecies quoted by PEter in Acts 2-3 were literally fulfilled.  The evidence you gave is twofold: (1) He quoted the prophets, therefore they must have been fulfilled; (2) Jews and jewish proselytes were saved.

PrOBlem: (1) As I stated, just because Peter quoted the OT Prophets does not mean that the fulfillment came true.  It is OBvious from a plain reading of the text, with no theological bias, that the prophecies did NOT come true literally.

(2) The OT prophecies had nothing to do with people getting saved.  The OT prophecies were about the Jewish Messiah appearing visibly ON EARTH, and establishing a physical kingdom, and reigning over the entire planet from Jerusalem.  This has not been fulfilled.  Your responses concerning Christ ruling from Heaven deny the plain text of OT Scripture of Christ reigning on the EARTH, which is what the Jews were looking for - and quite deservedly.  (Acts 1:6).

 

Third

You never addressed Revelation 19 - the return of Christ to the earth - this present earth - in a physical body, and establishing a physical Kingdom. 

You never addressed the fact that the phrase "one thousand years" is repeated SIX TIMES in Revelation 20 - that is a very specific number.  The heavy repetition only emphasizes the fact that the number is not a generic term for "a long time" but rather a specific statement as to the duration of Christ's reign on THIS EARTH prior to the establishment of the NH&NE.  This present universe is not destroyed until AFTER this 1,000 year reign of Christ - Rev. 20:10-15, II Peter 3:8-13. 

 

How did I come to this conclusion?  By simply reading the text, and believing what it says, as it says it, where it says it.  I did not change one thing, invent one thing, add one thing, or subtract one thing.  I did not invent any crazy definitions - I let the words stand as they are in the text.  Let's forget about trying to figure out what the text "means" and just let it say what it says! 

 

You can respond if you want to, but I prOBably won't....too much going on.

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So everyone is upset with each other over chapter 4:1 vs chapter 6:16?

Chapter 4:1 isn't a prophecy, it isn't a metaphor, it is a chronicle of an actual event that happened to one man, unless the Scripture gives us reason to believe otherwise.

The argument is over rightly dividing the word of truth.

Some want to take the plain words in Matthew 24, and assign them to some dispensation, as if Jesus told men who were going to turn the world upside down some information that they, the Apostles of the Church, would not need.
In essence, they are charging Jesus with lying to the 12.

Anishinaabe

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I am sure that the 12 apostles assumed that the words Jesus spoke to them in Matthew 24 were directed at them, and that they would see these events come to pass in their lifetime. 

Guess what?  Those events did NOT come to pass in their lifetime.  John continues the Revelation after all of the apostles were dead and gone, himself excepted.  Therefore, we must conclude that the events of Matthew 24 are still in the future.  No amount of historical twisting will fix that.

 

IN Christ,

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Chapter 4:1 isn't a prophecy, it isn't a metaphor, it is a chronicle of an actual event that happened to one man, unless the Scripture gives us reason to believe otherwise.

The argument is over rightly dividing the word of truth.

Some want to take the plain words in Matthew 24, and assign them to some dispensation, as if Jesus told men who were going to turn the world upside down some information that they, the Apostles of the Church, would not need.
In essence, they are charging Jesus with lying to the 12.

Anishinaabe

Matthew24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What about the ones who do not make it to the end? They would be lost?

 

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Why is fleeing on Saturday bad for a Christian?

 

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;

Aren't we looking for a rapture up in the sky? Why would we be looking for him on earth?

 

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Israelis are looking for him on earth, right?

 

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

If these two are Christians why is one taken and one left? The one that is left what happens to him/her?

 

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do Christians lose their salvation?

 

 

(This thread started out with the rapture being Revelation 14:14&15, how did it become Revelation 6:16?)

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I am sure that the 12 apostles assumed that the words Jesus spoke to them in Matthew 24 were directed at them, and that they would see these events come to pass in their lifetime.
Guess what? Those events did NOT come to pass in their lifetime. John continues the Revelation after all of the apostles were dead and gone, himself excepted. Therefore, we must conclude that the events of Matthew 24 are still in the future. No amount of historical twisting will fix that.

IN Christ,

I'm not sure what you mean here.
If you mean, that Matthew 24 was exactly this:

Mat 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

An answer to the disciples prayer...

Then yes, I agree.

They asked about His coming and the end of the World.

Both still future, in 2014.

If you mean something else, I don't get it.

Anishinaabe

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Matthew24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
What about the ones who do not make it to the end? They would be lost?

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Why is fleeing on Saturday bad for a Christian?

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
Aren't we looking for a rapture up in the sky? Why would we be looking for him on earth?

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Israelis are looking for him on earth, right?

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
If these two are Christians why is one taken and one left? The one that is left what happens to him/her?

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Do Christians lose their salvation?


(This thread started out with the rapture being Revelation 14:14&15, how did it become Revelation 6:16?)

The chronology in Rev. repeats.

Anishinaabe

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The Gospels were not written to "the church", they were written to Israel.

If you want to read what is specifically written to "the church", read Paul's Epistles.

This is where the 4th Century Catholic church "went wrong" and continue to this very day.

Replacement Theology "remnants" are found throughout the Protestant demoninations as well.

There will be God's servants of the house of Israel (genetic Israelites) preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the Tribulation.

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The Gospels were not written to "the church", they were written to Israel.

If you want to read what is specifically written to "the church", read Paul's Epistles.

This is where the 4th Century Catholic church "went wrong" and continue to this very day.

Replacement Theology "remnants" are found throughout the Protestant demoninations as well.

There will be God's servants of the house of Israel (genetic Israelites) preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the Tribulation.

You should post a thread "gospel of the kingdom vs gospel of grace" "Peter vs Paul" Israelis vs Gentiles.

Matthew15:24

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