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Ukulelemike

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

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Seriously, nothing you say "sounds familiar" or "makes sense" to me.  You have a vivid wild imagination, and blurt out all sorts of accusations.

On a more liberal forum, I might inquire what you were smoking, and suggest you put it down and "just say no". :)

Aparently it is a great effort on your part to read of John's Baptism in the River Jordan and Jesus' baptism by John.  It would appear that it is a great effort yielding small results in comprehension.

Perhaps the real prOBlem likes in you lack of proper research and understanding into the subject of Baptism used throughout the Bible.  Rather than having a clear understanding of it yourself, you seem project your confusion and misunderstanding onto others?

 

Perhaps the Geneva Bible that you use does not have a concordance where you can do a word-search.  That would be a shame, but understandable.  The King James has a plethora of free helps.

 

You are humorous. If you ever look into a Geneva Bible you would be laughing right now about what you just said.  :clapping:

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Seriously, nothing you say "sounds familiar" or "makes sense" to me.  You have a vivid wild imagination, and blurt out all sorts of accusations.

On a more liberal forum, I might inquire what you were smoking, and suggest you put it down and "just say no". :)

Aparently it is a great effort on your part to read of John's Baptism in the River Jordan and Jesus' baptism by John.  It would appear that it is a great effort yielding small results in comprehension.

Perhaps the real prOBlem likes in you lack of proper research and understanding into the subject of Baptism used throughout the Bible.  Rather than having a clear understanding of it yourself, you seem project your confusion and misunderstanding onto others?

 

Perhaps the Geneva Bible that you use does not have a concordance where you can do a word-search.  That would be a shame, but understandable.  The King James has a plethora of free helps.

 

And, pray tell me, what are you referring to exactly, when you say these accusations?

 

What doesn't make sense? Please explain.

Meanwhile - You did not respond to one of my 'accusations'. You just respond in gibberish, and that is not in the least 'spiritual'.

 

Ever read the whole Bible? 

Maybe you need to take about 25 years of reading the scriptures over and over, all the way through over 25 times, and follow God's way of understanding his word.

 

The scriptures alone define what baptism is and how it is to be administered, and to whom.

 

I am not a novice, but you sound like one in your 'knowledge'.

 

Just an OBservation, and no offense meant. Although you might take it that way.

I am not the best at 'speaking the truth in love', but I am not saying this in a hateful spirit, just trying to understand.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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prophet1, on Today, 07:36 PM, said:
So, we don't Baptize, in this "church age"?

Anishinaabe

Baptism in this age is not done to be or prove salvation.


So where was baptism for salvation in the OT?


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AVBB you've missed a few Scriptures - 

Luke - the message to the shepherds, the prayer of Simeon, Jesus' ministry at Nazareth, his commission to the Apostles, 

John - the conversation at the well, the message to the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus,

Acts - Jesus' reply when the Apostles asked about the kingdom.... 

 

The truth is that Messiah had to come through Abraham .... David to fulfil prophecy, and minister to the people of Israel, in order to accomplish salvation for ALL nations as promised to Abraham. Salvation was never exclusive to Israel, many Gentiles were numbered with Israel when they believed - Matthew 1 includes notable Gentile women. 

 

Now, AVBB show your own repentance by acknowledging your errors.

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AVBB you've missed a few Scriptures - 

Luke - the message to the shepherds, the prayer of Simeon, Jesus' ministry at Nazareth, his commission to the Apostles, 

John - the conversation at the well, the message to the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus,

Acts - Jesus' reply when the Apostles asked about the kingdom.... 

 

The truth is that Messiah had to come through Abraham .... David to fulfil prophecy, and minister to the people of Israel, in order to accomplish salvation for ALL nations as promised to Abraham. Salvation was never exclusive to Israel, many Gentiles were numbered with Israel when they believed - Matthew 1 includes notable Gentile women. 

 

Now, AVBB show your own repentance by acknowledging your errors.

I never said there was not salvation of the Gentiles.  The Gospel of the Kingdom was in fact exclusive of Israel (see the above verse were preached and taught only to Israel. So no repentance is necessary as I am not in Error.  The gospel of the Grace of God (which is not the Gospel of the Kingdom) through Israel did come through Paul unto the Gentile keeping the promise to Abraham that through him all Nations would be blessed. God is the Salvation of ALL but there are two Gospels (the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of the Grace of God) for two different periods of Time.  One for Israel as they prepare for their promised kingdom with one from David, and even David himself torule from Jerusalem.  And one for all men including Jews during the church age until the tribulation starts and Israel takes up the Kingdom Gospel again.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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I never said there was not salvation of the Gentiles.  The Gospel of the Kingdom was in fact exclusive of Israel (see the above verse were preached and taught only to Israel. So no repentance is necessary as I am not in Error.  The gospel of the Grace of God (which is not the Gospel of the Kingdom) through Israel did come through Paul unto the Gentile keeping the promise to Abraham that through him all Nations would be blessed. God is the Salvation of ALL but there are two Gospels (the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of the Grace of God) for two different periods of Time.  One for Israel as they prepare for their promised kingdom with one from David, and even David himself torule from Jerusalem.  And one for all men including Jews during the church age until the tribulation starts and Israel takes up the Kingdom Gospel again.

 

I try to see it, but it sounds so confusing to see what you and others see in these verses. I have been a believer in Jesus Christ since 1987, and have read the Bible over 20 times through and I have never seen some of the 'teachings' people put on this forum. If God is not the author of confusion, like we all believe, how can things like the differences between us, like this subject, exist? (That might make another good thread I guess.)

 

When we discuss this subject, and I accept it as discussion, (even though we 'argue' somewhat.), I see so much misalignment of scriptures, that I just wanna give up trying to understand it; even to learn what you all are saying, so I can disagree.

 

I appreciate everyone's view on here, even when I vehemently disagree. Sorry for any bad attitude from me, and I covet your prayers. I am learning.

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To add something about the original thread...

 

I too am not a Pre-Trib believer. It has never affected me in the negative in any way whatsoever with other believers in my life.

 

People who really trust God to lead his children, will be drawn to men of God who will actually really live their beliefs.

So I applaud any man of God who stands on his own convictions, in contradistinction to the 'standard' set up by men.

 

Brother Mike, thanks!   :godisgood:

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No I don't think they invented dispensationalism they exploited it.

I think the "prOBlem" we are seeing here on this thread is the lack of understanding, by

a few here, of  "Mid-Acts" Pauline Dispensationalism "Rightly Dividing" the Word of God.

 

Until that is understood, then you see all sorts of confusion of doctrine and remnants

of Catholic "Replacement Theology" to one degree or another.

 

I thank God that he brought me to this understanding by direct revelation on the eve of Nov. 16, 2010

as I was reading 1 Cor. 3:10 and confirmed by Romans 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, and 2 Tim 1:11 (3 witnesses).

It soon followed that I met others (IFB) that looked at scripture with the same understanding and clarity.

Edited by beameup

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Regardless of your perceived "direct revelation" (that's something I typically only hear from Charismatics and a few Pentecostals), it's the small handful of wrongly dividing dispensationalists who insist on separating the Word of God, warping its meaning and bringing confusion and chaos into the mix that are out of line with the Word of God.

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Regardless of your perceived "direct revelation" (that's something I typically only hear from Charismatics and a few Pentecostals), it's the small handful of wrongly dividing dispensationalists who insist on separating the Word of God, warping its meaning and bringing confusion and chaos into the mix that are out of line with the Word of God.

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

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I think the "prOBlem" we are seeing here on this thread is the lack of understanding, by

a few here, of  "Mid-Acts" Pauline Dispensationalism "Rightly Dividing" the Word of God.

 

Until that is understood, then you see all sorts of confusion of doctrine and remnants

of Catholic "Replacement Theology" to one degree or another.

 

I thank God that he brought me to this understanding by direct revelation on the eve of Nov. 16, 2010

as I was reading 1 Cor. 3:10 and confirmed by Romans 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, and 2 Tim 1:11 (3 witnesses).

It soon followed that I met others (IFB) that looked at scripture with the same understanding and clarity.

 

I do not understand the reference of 1 Cor. 3:10, with relation to the other verses?

Explain please? (Hows that? I asked for clarity!) :clapping:

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

 

Just to ad to the discussion - I thought it sounded kinda 'different' when you said 'direct revelation' also. The Baptists I am familiar with would think that an 'odd' phrase to use, knowing that these are the last days and people would be believing every 'wind of doctrine'.

 

And to me, that sounded a little 'breezy'.   

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Sorry to "disappoint you", but I went to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, (associated with J. Vernon McGee)

There were no corrupted versions of the Bible used at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles

The only other "versions" that I was aware of at that time was the (old) American Standard Version and the Revised Version ("reversed version"). 

I never even heard the mention of any "Geneva" Bible while at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

All my memorization of Scripture was in the King James, which the Holy Spirit uses to bring verses to my attention

to this very day, so I can find them on my hyper-linked on-line BLB.

 

Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

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Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

 

Does "Talbot Theological Seminary" sound like "Bible Institute of Los Angeles"? 

 

He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.  Prov 10:18
 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.  Prov 13:16
It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.  Prov 10:23
 
 
 
Only official statements of faith from the Bible Institute of Los Angeles during the early 1960s qualify. 
Edited by beameup

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Baptism was not practiced in the OT.

sorry my phone messed up the quotes. However, your comment that Matthew through acts 7 was to Israel only answers a lot of questions about your theological stance(s). specifically baptism being essential... pretty scary. anyway, that's quite off topic. ciao. 

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So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

I expect we all get that sort of experience as we read or listen. We suddenly realise, "THAT's what it means" or "That's a direction for me." In no way is it "some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience."

 

e.g. As a baptised & confirmed Anglican, I never thought about being baptised as a believer, until a baptismal service was announced in the Independent church I was attending. Or, I heard Heb. 7 read, & immediately I knew that Melchizedek was a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus. Or I read Heb. 12, & realise that Paul is referring to the prophesied destruction - the removal of the temple & carnal ordinances - confirmed by the Olivet prophecies, 2 Thes. 2, Rev. 11.

 

But I do not expect you all to be convinced by my Holy Ghost experience - we need to go on reading, as Bereans.

 

It's not quite off topic - Holy Ghost enlightenment is one reason for changing our position, whether pre-trib or whatever.

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Indeed, we can't understand the Word without the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost opens our understanding.

 

The term "direct revelation" is typically not used in regards to the Holy Ghost enlightening the Word, but rather in terms of being told of something special or new.

 

The reason so many Bible "scholars" can spend their entire lives in the Bible and yet see it as any more than literature or have wrong understandings of so much of the Bible is because they are lost and without the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

 

At the same time, the reason a poorly educated saved person can spend time in the Word and know what it says is through the Holy Ghost opening their understanding.

 

We must be careful to pray for wisdom as well for there are many false spirits out there seeking to deceive us, as well as our own flesh that doesn't desire the ways of the Lord.

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Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

 

Uh.. this is the theological part of the BIOLA college. It is the same college you went to. All searches I did came up with this school as being one and the same, they just added a new name.

Articles about BIOLA did mention J. Vernon McGee as one of its 'teachers' and 'chairs'. Look it up.

I got on their official website, and clicked the 'contact us' icon, and this is who answered.

 

No real slam to you since this is 'modern' churchianity schooling. I do not put any stock in it at all, because they don't really know what they are talking about anymore.

This was, though, a good outcome of the search.

They do still teach dispensationalism. 

 

I am done talking about your schooling, and I regret bringing it up, but it does bring up an interesting thought: what about our modern christian colleges teaching dispensationalism? (what a word to spell!)

And them using perversions to teach it as fact?

 

And do they ever teach the opposite in the colleges? You know, what some irreverently call Catholic Replacement Theology? Wow, me Catholic? Is that not a slam?

 

By the way, I believe a saved person can read the word of God, and being led by the Spirit of God, can safely come up with the belief that I have, and others.

So just because someone calls what we believe 'Catholic' does no real damage to us as believers in the true gospel.

I didn't need others to quantify my ideology to support 'what' I 'made up in my mind' was in fact true.

Truth needs no 'Doctors' of the law to teach it, only a willing heart to accept 'what God hath said'!

 

Accepting Gods word at what it says, will not lead into error, as some falsely do teach, (that is true Catholic teaching, remember? They said men would lead into error if the bishops and priests didn't handle the word of God and tell the people what God said.)

 

That is what the Catholic church did. Stopped the free flow of God leading mankind through his word. 

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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So, Geneva, have you decided to bait and egg instead of discuss? Rhetorical question..no answer needed. Put a stop to the egging...now.

Sorry. Added an 'edit'.

I do find it disturbing though, and meant the 'egging' to mean - 'bring out more discussion on this phrase'. Not 'egging' in a rude or disrespectful manner.

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Uh.. this is the theological part of the BIOLA college. It is the same college you went to. All searches I did came up with this school as being one and the same, they just added a new name.
Articles about BIOLA did mention J. Vernon McGee as one of its 'teachers' and 'chairs'. Look it up.
I got on their official website, and clicked the 'contact us' icon, and this is who answered.

No real slam to you since this is 'modern' churchianity schooling. I do not put any stock in it at all, because they don't really know what they are talking about anymore.
This was, though, a good outcome of the search.
They do still teach dispensationalism.

I am done talking about your schooling, and I regret bringing it up, but it does bring up an interesting thought: what about our modern christian colleges teaching dispensationalism? (what a word to spell!)
And them using perversions to teach it as fact?

And do they ever teach the opposite in the colleges? You know, what some irreverently call Catholic Replacement Theology? Wow, me Catholic? Is that not a slam?

By the way, I believe a saved person can read the word of God, and being led by the Spirit of God, can safely come up with the belief that I have, and others.
So just because someone calls what we believe 'Catholic' does no real damage to us as believers in the true gospel.
I didn't need others to quantify my ideology to support 'what' I 'made up in my mind' was in fact true.
Truth needs no 'Doctors' of the law to teach it, only a willing heart to accept 'what God hath said'!

Accepting Gods word at what it says, will not lead into error, as some falsely do teach, (that is true Catholic teaching, remember? They said men would lead into error if the bishops and priests didn't handle the word of God and tell the people what God said.)

That is what the Catholic church did. Stopped the free flow of God leading mankind through his word.

This is the exact reason that I constantly remind people of Scofield.
He was most responsible for putting the false dispy teaching in the hands of Fun.Bap.s, through his Reference Bible.
In the 'theme' of 2 Thes., he whined about the "OBscured theme" of the Epistle, because of mistranslation.
He openly admits, here, that the King James Version doesn't separate the (pretrib rapture) from the Second Coming.
He blames everyone except Darby and his false doctrine, for this.

The translators mistranslated.
There were better mss, still undiscovered, that would've helped.
Dispy Doctrine hasn't been taught well enough.
And on, and on.

How about, God didnt put it there, because He didn't want it there?

But, starry-eyed sycophants, drunken with the koolaid of Darby Calvinism, will tout the doctrinal error of Pretrib cRapture, and still claim to be KJVO, regardless of the anti-KJV roots of their idolized doctrine.

Humpty-Dumpty Dispensationalism...you divide the Bible up so much, all the king's men can't put it back together again!

Anishinaabe

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Could one of the dispy haters on here please give their definition of dispensationalism , without bashing theologians they disagree with. Nor package it with a premise they disagree with. That is to say "I reject dispensationalism because it leads to pretrib " as that is just a non scholastic way to dismiss something you don't like personally. Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Edited by Gorship

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Could one of the dispy haters on here please give their definition of dispensationalism , without bashing theologians they disagree with. Nor package it with a premise they disagree with. That is to say "I reject dispensationalism because it leads to pretrib " as that is just a non scholastic way to dismiss something you don't like personally. Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

 

Haters is a strong word to use maybe?

 

When disagreeing with someones doctrinal stand, hate should never be focused on the

'deliverer'.  

 

My 'take' on 'dispy', if I may use this word, without offense (its kinda a long word to keep typing), is :

 

                                                                       a 'teaching' dividing the history of time in the scriptures, and naming to each division a 'form' of 

                                                                       'salvation/gospel' to various 'ways' for mankind to be saved, and guided by the God of creation, 

                                                                       focusing on the people of Israel, eventually, and making them, as a people of JacOB's bloodline,

                                                                       the only 'chosen' humans, not even excluding Christians not of the 'jewish' blood. Even though

                                                                       God divorced the Northern Tribes of Israel, making them also gentiles, and promised a new

                                                                       covenant/testament that would once again join the two in 'faith' in the same Messiah/Christ and

                                                                       his lamb like sacrifice for their sins and the sins of all the world; those who teach and believe

                                                                       'dispy' still do not accept the scriptures as a whole, the message of God to his people of all

                                                                       nationalities, specifically to those who believe, but seperate God's eternal sacrifice, once, forever,

                                                                       for all, and makes two ways of saved people using two gospels. Also, the timing of Christ's return

                                                                       for each is different, and as I am still learning what they believe, I will stop, for I am somewhat

                                                                       new to this 'doctrine'.

 

This is my definition that I get from these forums, as I know no one who believes this way personally.

It is interesting though and I find it strengthens my own view of what the scriptures say.

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