Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Back to topic.

 

Hopefully we agree:

Jesus is coming again for resurrection, aka the rapture.

Events under discussion include the great tribulation, the rapture/resurrection, the millennium, 

 Jesus' Olivet prophecy relates to the AD70 destruction, with possible allusions to the second coming as there is no clear recorded fulfilment.

Salvation is only by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour, Lord and God.

The church comprises Jews and Gentiles as one redeemed people of God.

All prophecy will be perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth, not the millennium.

Scripture leaves room for discussion and courteous disagreement 

 

We disagree on the timing, and the whole scheme of prophecy, the date of Revelation, the extent of the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy, the 70 weeks, the finality of the second coming, the fulfilment of the OT promises to Israel, the inclusion of Gentiles in the promises to Abraham, the salvation of "all Israel" 

And the extent to which the future can be known from Scripture.

 

I agree with your post, except the highlighted section, Covenanter (if I am understanding it correctly).  As I have stated before, it was the barbaric Romans that destroyed the temple in AD 70.  They were looking for "Jew Gold" when they tore it down and found nothing.  1/3 of the Jews will be saved in the Great Tribulation, as it states in the Book of Daniel.  The Apostle Paul witnesses to the Jews in the Book of Romans, as well.  I am on my Iphone, so I don't have the actual scriptures. I also don't have an app. on my phone to look up the scriptures.  Half the time when I am on OB, I don't have my Bible handy, as I am posting from my IPhone.  If you are someone would post those scriptures, it would be helpful.  Also, the men on OB are great with the scriptures.  I type them out by hand b/c I don't know how to download a KJV site to my computer. 

    :amen:  to your above post, Ukelelemike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 389
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

a Jew under the gospel of the kingdom (which is not active today but will be during the tribulation) would have to be repent and be baptised.

 

 

What are your scripture references for this?  If you're so inclined to answer, may I suggest starting a new topic?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

What are your scripture references for this?  If you're so inclined to answer, may I suggest starting a new topic?

And here all along I thought you knew the scriptures.  Here they are:

 

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and His disciples ministry from Matthew through Acts 7 was to Israel ONLY.  the gospel they preached was the gospel of the Kingdom and belief on that Gospel required repentance and baptism.  If Israel believed, repented and was baptized they received salvation.  If not they were condemned.

 

read them through look at the message and what was done when they heard the message and who it was that was preached too.

 

This gospel is not preached today.  The gospel of Grace is preached today and it does not require repentance or baptism only belief through faith.  and the gospel of Grace is for all men not just Israel as was the kingdom Gospel.

 

Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

 

Mt 15:21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

Mt 3:1 ¶  In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

 

Mt 4: 17, 23 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. . .
¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

 

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost
.

 

Mr 1: 6, 14-15 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. . . . . ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Lu 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
 3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

 

Lu 3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

 

Lu 3:21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

 

Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

 

Joh 3:22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
 24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
 25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
 26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

 

Joh 4:1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

And here all along I thought you knew the scriptures. Here they are:

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and His disciples ministry from Matthew through Acts 7 was to Israel ONLY. the gospel they preached was the gospel of the Kingdom and belief on that Gospel required repentance and baptism. If Israel believed, repented and was baptized they received salvation. If not they were condemned.

read them through look at the message and what was done when they heard the message and who it was that was preached too.

This gospel is not preached today. The gospel of Grace is preached today and it does not require repentance or baptism only belief through faith. and the gospel of Grace is for all men not just Israel as was the kingdom Gospel.

Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.


Mt 15:21 ¶ Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mt 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 4: 17, 23 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. . .
¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost
.

Mr 1: 6, 14-15 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. . . . . ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Lu 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Lu 3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

Lu 3:21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.


Joh 3:22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.


Joh 4:1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

So, we don't Baptize, in this "church age"?

Anishinaabe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Seriously, nothing you say "sounds familiar" or "makes sense" to me.  You have a vivid wild imagination, and blurt out all sorts of accusations.

On a more liberal forum, I might inquire what you were smoking, and suggest you put it down and "just say no". :)

Aparently it is a great effort on your part to read of John's Baptism in the River Jordan and Jesus' baptism by John.  It would appear that it is a great effort yielding small results in comprehension.

Perhaps the real prOBlem likes in you lack of proper research and understanding into the subject of Baptism used throughout the Bible.  Rather than having a clear understanding of it yourself, you seem project your confusion and misunderstanding onto others?

 

Perhaps the Geneva Bible that you use does not have a concordance where you can do a word-search.  That would be a shame, but understandable.  The King James has a plethora of free helps.

 

You are humorous. If you ever look into a Geneva Bible you would be laughing right now about what you just said.  :clapping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Seriously, nothing you say "sounds familiar" or "makes sense" to me.  You have a vivid wild imagination, and blurt out all sorts of accusations.

On a more liberal forum, I might inquire what you were smoking, and suggest you put it down and "just say no". :)

Aparently it is a great effort on your part to read of John's Baptism in the River Jordan and Jesus' baptism by John.  It would appear that it is a great effort yielding small results in comprehension.

Perhaps the real prOBlem likes in you lack of proper research and understanding into the subject of Baptism used throughout the Bible.  Rather than having a clear understanding of it yourself, you seem project your confusion and misunderstanding onto others?

 

Perhaps the Geneva Bible that you use does not have a concordance where you can do a word-search.  That would be a shame, but understandable.  The King James has a plethora of free helps.

 

And, pray tell me, what are you referring to exactly, when you say these accusations?

 

What doesn't make sense? Please explain.

Meanwhile - You did not respond to one of my 'accusations'. You just respond in gibberish, and that is not in the least 'spiritual'.

 

Ever read the whole Bible? 

Maybe you need to take about 25 years of reading the scriptures over and over, all the way through over 25 times, and follow God's way of understanding his word.

 

The scriptures alone define what baptism is and how it is to be administered, and to whom.

 

I am not a novice, but you sound like one in your 'knowledge'.

 

Just an OBservation, and no offense meant. Although you might take it that way.

I am not the best at 'speaking the truth in love', but I am not saying this in a hateful spirit, just trying to understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

prophet1, on Today, 07:36 PM, said:
So, we don't Baptize, in this "church age"?

Anishinaabe

Baptism in this age is not done to be or prove salvation.


So where was baptism for salvation in the OT?


Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

AVBB you've missed a few Scriptures - 

Luke - the message to the shepherds, the prayer of Simeon, Jesus' ministry at Nazareth, his commission to the Apostles, 

John - the conversation at the well, the message to the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus,

Acts - Jesus' reply when the Apostles asked about the kingdom.... 

 

The truth is that Messiah had to come through Abraham .... David to fulfil prophecy, and minister to the people of Israel, in order to accomplish salvation for ALL nations as promised to Abraham. Salvation was never exclusive to Israel, many Gentiles were numbered with Israel when they believed - Matthew 1 includes notable Gentile women. 

 

Now, AVBB show your own repentance by acknowledging your errors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

AVBB you've missed a few Scriptures - 

Luke - the message to the shepherds, the prayer of Simeon, Jesus' ministry at Nazareth, his commission to the Apostles, 

John - the conversation at the well, the message to the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus,

Acts - Jesus' reply when the Apostles asked about the kingdom.... 

 

The truth is that Messiah had to come through Abraham .... David to fulfil prophecy, and minister to the people of Israel, in order to accomplish salvation for ALL nations as promised to Abraham. Salvation was never exclusive to Israel, many Gentiles were numbered with Israel when they believed - Matthew 1 includes notable Gentile women. 

 

Now, AVBB show your own repentance by acknowledging your errors.

I never said there was not salvation of the Gentiles.  The Gospel of the Kingdom was in fact exclusive of Israel (see the above verse were preached and taught only to Israel. So no repentance is necessary as I am not in Error.  The gospel of the Grace of God (which is not the Gospel of the Kingdom) through Israel did come through Paul unto the Gentile keeping the promise to Abraham that through him all Nations would be blessed. God is the Salvation of ALL but there are two Gospels (the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of the Grace of God) for two different periods of Time.  One for Israel as they prepare for their promised kingdom with one from David, and even David himself torule from Jerusalem.  And one for all men including Jews during the church age until the tribulation starts and Israel takes up the Kingdom Gospel again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I never said there was not salvation of the Gentiles.  The Gospel of the Kingdom was in fact exclusive of Israel (see the above verse were preached and taught only to Israel. So no repentance is necessary as I am not in Error.  The gospel of the Grace of God (which is not the Gospel of the Kingdom) through Israel did come through Paul unto the Gentile keeping the promise to Abraham that through him all Nations would be blessed. God is the Salvation of ALL but there are two Gospels (the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of the Grace of God) for two different periods of Time.  One for Israel as they prepare for their promised kingdom with one from David, and even David himself torule from Jerusalem.  And one for all men including Jews during the church age until the tribulation starts and Israel takes up the Kingdom Gospel again.

 

I try to see it, but it sounds so confusing to see what you and others see in these verses. I have been a believer in Jesus Christ since 1987, and have read the Bible over 20 times through and I have never seen some of the 'teachings' people put on this forum. If God is not the author of confusion, like we all believe, how can things like the differences between us, like this subject, exist? (That might make another good thread I guess.)

 

When we discuss this subject, and I accept it as discussion, (even though we 'argue' somewhat.), I see so much misalignment of scriptures, that I just wanna give up trying to understand it; even to learn what you all are saying, so I can disagree.

 

I appreciate everyone's view on here, even when I vehemently disagree. Sorry for any bad attitude from me, and I covet your prayers. I am learning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

To add something about the original thread...

 

I too am not a Pre-Trib believer. It has never affected me in the negative in any way whatsoever with other believers in my life.

 

People who really trust God to lead his children, will be drawn to men of God who will actually really live their beliefs.

So I applaud any man of God who stands on his own convictions, in contradistinction to the 'standard' set up by men.

 

Brother Mike, thanks!   :godisgood:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

No I don't think they invented dispensationalism they exploited it.

I think the "prOBlem" we are seeing here on this thread is the lack of understanding, by

a few here, of  "Mid-Acts" Pauline Dispensationalism "Rightly Dividing" the Word of God.

 

Until that is understood, then you see all sorts of confusion of doctrine and remnants

of Catholic "Replacement Theology" to one degree or another.

 

I thank God that he brought me to this understanding by direct revelation on the eve of Nov. 16, 2010

as I was reading 1 Cor. 3:10 and confirmed by Romans 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, and 2 Tim 1:11 (3 witnesses).

It soon followed that I met others (IFB) that looked at scripture with the same understanding and clarity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...