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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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A very big AMEN Covenanter!

Maybe some here ought to look up the word 'church' in Acts? Saul was wreaking havoc on the church, was he not?
Now, if you believe the word of God, that means the Jews. I agree!
Jews and the church!! Both one and the same instrument and tool of God! NOT Judaism and the church!!

No disrespect to Jewish descendants, but Judaism is a false doctrine invented by lost people, they just happened to be Jews.

I grew up with Jews, and they are the same as every other human, but lost is lost, no matter what race.
I went to one of their elementary schools.
I, as a child was treated very cruel by some of them, but loved extremely by others of them in my classes.
They treated me the same as other schools I attended, and they are very human. (My multiple schools are a history in themselves.)
But, lost is lost, and when they get saved, they become the church!
Then, and now!
THAT is when they become the 'chosen people'!!
Israel was in the wilderness, but only the believing followers of God were allowed to survive!
THAT is the true Israel that the Lord God lead through the wilderness, not those who were rebellious and despised God and his authority!
Judaism is not of Christ Jesus, and he was not one of them.
Jesus was, is, and always shall be God in human form, and not capable of being a religious follower of Judaism.

You are wrong, my friend, some are more lost than others....the Jews.

Mat 23:15
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.



Anishinaabe

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You are wrong, my friend, some are more lost than others....the Jews.

Mat 23:15
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.



Anishinaabe

 

Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Good point!

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So what!

You never used the phrase? What difference does that make?

 

Do you believe the 'Bible'? That word is not in the scriptures. Do you attend a 'Baptist Church'? That church name is not in the scriptures.

 

Do you comprehend terminology? Do you understand what baptismal regeneration is? I think you do. 

 

So what's your prOBlem? 

You don't have to use the 'name' of the false doctrine to believe it or teach it.

 

If you truly believe the stuff you said about 'washings' then you condemn yourself to this definition.

 

Alex Campbell and you agree. That is something I would not wish upon my worst enemy! Nor you. (you are not my enemy, and I do not think that.)

 

Alex 'converted' thousands of Baptists (in name only, OBviously!) church members to 'his' way of 'washing' for forgiveness of sins.

 

That was and still is heresy against the Baptist faith of the Holy Scriptures being our only rule and guide of faith, and Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection being the fulfillment

of God's love for the whole world! 

 

One salvation for all!!

 

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism..." - Sound familiar??

Seriously, nothing you say "sounds familiar" or "makes sense" to me.  You have a vivid wild imagination, and blurt out all sorts of accusations.

On a more liberal forum, I might inquire what you were smoking, and suggest you put it down and "just say no". :)

Aparently it is a great effort on your part to read of John's Baptism in the River Jordan and Jesus' baptism by John.  It would appear that it is a great effort yielding small results in comprehension.

Perhaps the real prOBlem likes in you lack of proper research and understanding into the subject of Baptism used throughout the Bible.  Rather than having a clear understanding of it yourself, you seem project your confusion and misunderstanding onto others?

 

Perhaps the Geneva Bible that you use does not have a concordance where you can do a word-search.  That would be a shame, but understandable.  The King James has a plethora of free helps.

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You are wrong, my friend, some are more lost than others....the Jews.

Mat 23:15
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.



Anishinaabe

Wrong - Jesus denounced the Jewish leaders who heard his teaching, saw his miracles & understood who he was, yet rejected him. He warned "this generation" repeatedly of their lost state, & warned them that all they trusted in would be destroyed - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

The self curse the Jews called on themselves - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children -  was cancelled for those who repented by the Gospel preached at Pentecost - For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

God's wrath against "this generation" that rejected him AND the Gospel of salvation ended with the AD 70 destruction he prophesied at Olivet. Paul asserts - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. Stephen declares them uncircumcised - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

John in Rev. 7 sees God's Jewish servants (144,000) sealed before the wrath of God falls & later sees them as "firstfruits." Believing Jews were delivered from Jerusalem before the AD 70 destruction. He also sees Jews numbered with believers in glory.  Every kindred is a tribal relationship. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

The Jews are welcomed by the Gospel. Many thousands were saved before the destruction, in Israel and around the Roman world & beyond - including Babylon & Ethiopia. How many millions of believers of Jewish ancestry is impossible to calculate - they are generally rejected by their family & community & are absorbed into the church. And in the church they are numbered as one people of God - a relationship established in the OT promises, claimed for the church & seen gloriously in the NH&NE where ALL the promises of God to Israel are fulfilled for Abraham's seed & all families on earth. 

 

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.    

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Wrong - Jesus denounced the Jewish leaders who heard his teaching, saw his miracles & understood who he was, yet rejected him. He warned "this generation" repeatedly of their lost state, & warned them that all they trusted in would be destroyed - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The self curse the Jews called on themselves - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children - was cancelled for those who repented by the Gospel preached at Pentecost - For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

God's wrath against "this generation" that rejected him AND the Gospel of salvation ended with the AD 70 destruction he prophesied at Olivet. Paul asserts - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. Stephen declares them uncircumcised - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

John in Rev. 7 sees God's Jewish servants (144,000) sealed before the wrath of God falls & later sees them as "firstfruits." Believing Jews were delivered from Jerusalem before the AD 70 destruction. He also sees Jews numbered with believers in glory. Every kindred is a tribal relationship. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Jews are welcomed by the Gospel. Many thousands were saved before the destruction, in Israel and around the Roman world & beyond - including Babylon & Ethiopia. How many millions of believers of Jewish ancestry is impossible to calculate - they are generally rejected by their family & community & are absorbed into the church. And in the church they are numbered as one people of God - a relationship established in the OT promises, claimed for the church & seen gloriously in the NH&NE where ALL the promises of God to Israel are fulfilled for Abraham's seed & all families on earth.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

There is no such thing as "Jewish Ancestry"
There are Hebrews.


Anishinaabe

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There is no such thing as "Jewish Ancestry"
There are Hebrews.


Anishinaabe

Don't you just hate it when a carefully worded, Scriptural post is dismissed with an irrelevant comment.

 

Have you read your own previous comment?

 

You are wrong, my friend, some are more lost than others....the Jews.

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Why don't you guys knock it off or take it private?  You're cluttering up a post with lots of good information (most of it written by me).

 

 

 

 

:face:   That last part is a joke for those of you in Rio Linda.

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Don't you just hate it when a carefully worded, Scriptural post is dismissed with an irrelevant comment.

Have you read your own previous comment?

Jew is a religion, not an ancestry.
Not all Jews are Hebrew, not all Hebrews are Jews.

Anishinaabe

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I have looked through the pages to find Beam's post, regarding "baptism" of the Jews, GP.  I found swath's post.
 

beameup, on 06 May 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:snapback.png

 

Ceremonial washing has always been an integral part of Judiasm.  John the Baptist call his kinsmen to repent and be baptized.

Believers in Jesus also were ceremonially washed as a sign of repentence.  This was done to prepare the way for the Lord.

The ideal would have been for the whole nation to be baptized and receive their Messiah to sit on David's Throne.

Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and his kinsmen (genetic Jews) will serve him in Israel in the future.

 

We, as Gentile believers are not bound by Judiasm, we are "baptized" in the Holy Spirit. 

   

We, as Gentile believers are not bound by Judiasm, we are "baptized" in the Holy Spirit. 
 

I don't believe Beam is talking about anything charismatic here b/c he put the word, "baptized" in quotation marks.  I believe he is talking about John baptizing the Jews in the river Jordan the way born again Christians are baptized.  I could be wrong, though.  

 

 

Why don't you guys knock it off or take it private?  You're cluttering up a post with lots of good information (most of it written by me).

 

 

 

 

:face:   That last part is a joke for those of you in Rio Linda.

 LOL swath.

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Just to be clear them, beam are you stating a Jew would need to be baptized to receive Christ? Just a yes or no, I don't need your dissertation

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

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Back to topic.

 

Hopefully we agree:

Jesus is coming again for resurrection, aka the rapture.

Events under discussion include the great tribulation, the rapture/resurrection, the millennium, 

 Jesus' Olivet prophecy relates to the AD70 destruction, with possible allusions to the second coming as there is no clear recorded fulfilment.

Salvation is only by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour, Lord and God.

The church comprises Jews and Gentiles as one redeemed people of God.

All prophecy will be perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth, not the millennium.

Scripture leaves room for discussion and courteous disagreement 

 

We disagree on the timing, and the whole scheme of prophecy, the date of Revelation, the extent of the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy, the 70 weeks, the finality of the second coming, the fulfilment of the OT promises to Israel, the inclusion of Gentiles in the promises to Abraham, the salvation of "all Israel" 

And the extent to which the future can be known from Scripture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You are wrong, my friend, some are more lost than others....the Jews.

Mat 23:15
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.



Anishinaabe

more lost than others.

 

Very interesting.

 

The lost are all lost none more than the others.

 

But if you are talking about levels of punishment that has nothing to do with one being more lost than another.

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Just to be clear them, beam are you stating a Jew would need to be baptized to receive Christ? Just a yes or no, I don't need your dissertation

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

a Jew under the gospel of the kingdom (which is not active today but will be during the tribulation) would have to be repent and be baptised.

 

But a Jew under the gospel of the Grace of God, taught by Paul, needs only to believe through faith on the finished work of the Cross, the same as anyone in this church age.

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