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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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I Thess 4:16-17

v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."  RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING.  They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

 

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely.  We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."  I don't see a prOBlem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen.  the Bible term in this passage is "caught up."  People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.

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I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

Read the Olivet prophecy e.g. -

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done

The great tribulation preceeds the destruction that took place in the life of many.    

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

Read before "realizing." Jesus very clearly warns about the destruction & the great tribulation, & he gives clear instructions about how to recognise the signs when they should flee the city - as history records they did.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

How do you understand the words of Jesus when, speaking against the Jewish leaders (who recognised what he was saying against them) said, Mark 12:And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Paul writes of that in this way: 1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God

which in Judæa are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

That ad 70 event ENDS the wrath of God against "this generation." Why should a just & loving God perpetuate wrath against his people for 100 generations for the guilt of others? The Gospel is open to the Jews until Jesus returns despite the hate of corrupt churches down the ages. Jews are welcomed by the Gospel of Jesus when they come as sinners to him. And NO! God is not planning the future slaughter of them in a future trib. Unbelievers will be judged when Jesus comes for the resurrection/rapture for the saints. They will then suffer endless tribulation in hell.

2 Thes. 1:seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  

  Must go.

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.

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I Thess 4:16-17
v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first." RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING. They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely. We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." I don't see a prOBlem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen. the Bible term in this passage is "caught up." People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.

My point was you can't cross reference the non-Scriptural word "rapture".
Because the event is a Resurrection, you can cross reference that word.



Anishinaabe

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Wow.  I've not read through all of this, but quite honestly, I don't bother myself with end times theology.  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  All else is just conjecture about what will likely happen long after we have passed from this earth. It is nothing to get worked up over.  :-)  What will come will come.  We have no control and no input into the matter.  All we can control is ourselves and our attitudes. 

KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   

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Lots of twists and a major loss of consistency, which is what usually happens after 3 or 4 pages on a thread. It gets too demanding to follow as one wades through. In addition what you have is 1 or a couple of posters that dominate (nothing wrong with that, just saying) the conversation but they take on 2 or 3 other posters and it´s 1 guy arguing with 3 or 4 other guys over 2 or 3 other rabbit trails and the entirety continuity of the thread falls apart.

 

7 pages ago I asked you Mike where does the JCOC fit. You sort of played the importance of that down as if it really doesn´t matter.

But i does. It matters so much that I have yet to receive an answer form any pre wrath, post trib position to date.

You can´t place it in your scheme as it will demonstrate the fallacy of your position.

 

So, I still would like an answer.

 

Or at least encourage you to try to find it for yourself. If you did and do, you will dump the untenable potion you hold.

 

When does the JCOC occur?

 

In addition, I have not questioned your Christianity or salvation and neither has any one else here. You suggested that we question your IFB status, your faith etc. None of which is true.

In fact I mad eit a point to say that I don´t question your integrity or character as I do not know you personally and that is and never has been an issue.

 

I do wonder however why you seek to moderate a board that you are not in agreement with? Pre trib is the stated doctrinal position of this board. I also question why Matt has not weighed in on this OBvious conflict of interest.

 

Pre trib, pre wrath, post trib are by no means tests of fellowship, or a true test of one´s relationship with the Lord.

 

As a missionary I plant churches, then as they grow, mature and become autonomous I seek God´s will for a replacement of myself to lead the flock. Mike, I don´t care how faithful you might have been to the Lord, how active in the work and what a grand testimony you might have before the brethren. I would not however consider you as a candidate to any church that I have personally planted. How could I? What would that convey to the church I have pastored for x amount of years? Would that not necessarily be a major contradiction of myself before the flock?

 

Your position by my way of understanding is dead wrong, you haven´t been able to prove anything other than the fact that your ability to distinguish between the church, the Jew and the gentile is faulty. That seems to me to be the major failing of all Rosenthal induced positions, (Yes,... he is the gran daddy of your eschatology boy and girls).

 

Any one who confuses Matthew 24 with 1 Thess is not a very thorough Bible student.,

 

God bless,

calvary

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KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   

 

Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?

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Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?

 

My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

Am I a Roman Catholic?  LOL  Far from it.  I left the RCC (in my mind) in the second grade.  By ninth grade, I convinced my parents that I didn't need to go faithfully, anymore.  My precious family has been sent to hell, b/c of the false doctrine of the RCC.  I have mentioned this before, but they are my biggest burden.

I also dabbled in witchcraft.  Not very heavily, but I did get Tarot Cards read, talk on physic hotlines, where I spent lots of money, and I used to do Tarot Cards for my friends, before the Lord took my down with a medical prOBlem in 1997.  I was the "Good Witch" telling people have wonderful their lives would be.  I thought it was harmless, but it wasn't.  My sister also dabbles in the occult, however, she is into haunted houses and mediums.  Many RCC's are into witchcraft, which stems from "substantiation" on the pulpit of the RCC.  Everyone I know who is into witchcraft, had or has ties to the RCC.  This is just part of my testimony, Al.  

Anyway, that is the primary point of my post.  

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My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

 

So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.

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Candlelight:

 

That saying is common to all Christian belief.  It dates back centuries and centuries.  Christians have been saying it from generation to generation.  It is a tradition, yet it is well rooted in Scripture.  It comes from Scripture. Not the exact wording, but the doctrine. It the essence of the Gospel.  Christ has died.  True?  Yes.  Christ has risen.  True?  Yes. Christ will come again.  True?  Yes.

 

So what is wrong with saying it? 

Disclaimer: I attend an Anglican church, and we say this every week right before Communion, which I find to be a lovely reminder and reaffirmation of our faith.  But we often said it in the last Baptist church I attended as well.  I think it is said in most liturgical churches.  Yes, it is said in Catholic churches, but I've heard it in Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican....I could go on.  But it is an essential truth at the heart of Christianity. 

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So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.

 

Certainly the Roman Catholic Church does not get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God.  That is my point, Al.  In the thread that Ukelemike posted, I wrote out what my husband and I will be doing for the Lord in a year and a half.  Please read it.  Thank you:)  Anyway, in that post, I mentioned that we will be going to Scotland 2 times a year to help our missionary friends build another church over there.  They want me to help, b/c Scotland is filled with witchcraft. Anyway, my sister and I talk on the phone all the time.  The other day she called me and asked what was up.  I told her.  She immediately said, "Oh, they are Protestants" in a snarky manner.  It should be no secret how the RCC feels about the Protestants.  LOL  I closed my mouth, didn't argue, and changed the subject.

Yes, we all use phrases not found in the Bible.  I do it all the time.  The phase that KOB posted, immediately took me back to the RCC.  I was raised in public school in the late 60's, 70's, and 80's.  The public school system taught evolution.  The only thing I knew about God was from the RCC.  I went to CCD classes from 1-6 grade at an RCC church.  That was once a week.  In 7-8th grade I went to a charismatic RCC church for parochial school.  While I am very grateful I learned about God and Jesus, my head was spinning.  I floundered away for years, until my medical prOBlem hit in 1997.  By 1998, a Baptist man, started sharing the gospel with me.  He is a wonderful man of God.  I grew up with him, and he was a wild one.  I couldn't believe the change in him.  When he found out about my dabbling in the occult, he took me to the verses in Deuteronomy and told me I was walking on the dark side.  It hit me like a brick.  At that time, my future MIL started witnessing to me.  I thought I was saved in 1998, when I recited the "Sinner's Prayer" at my bedside that this man had me do.  That was in March of 1998.  I thought I was saved.  I married my husband in 2000, as I thought I was saved.  I was merely gaining head knowledge, in my IFB church.  I was saved, on May 10, 2003, on Mother's Day Weekend in the hospital, after an Epileptic seizure.  My head and my heart were in line.  I used to suffer from fever related seizures, as a child.  My first seizure was at 6 months old.  The last one was when I was 12.  They came back, due to stress, from teaching for 18 years in the Cleveland Municipal School District.  That year, I was able to get a medical retirement from the CMSD.  The system was getting worse, and my boss suggested I put in for a retirement.  They retired over 300 teachers that year, on medical disabilities.  

Again, just sharing my testimony...  

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Candlelight:

 

That saying is common to all Christian belief.  It dates back centuries and centuries.  Christians have been saying it from generation to generation.  It is a tradition, yet it is well rooted in Scripture.  It comes from Scripture. Not the exact wording, but the doctrine. It the essence of the Gospel.  Christ has died.  True?  Yes.  Christ has risen.  True?  Yes. Christ will come again.  True?  Yes.

 

So what is wrong with saying it? 

Disclaimer: I attend an Anglican church, and we say this every week right before Communion, which I find to be a lovely reminder and reaffirmation of our faith.  But we often said it in the last Baptist church I attended as well.  I think it is said in most liturgical churches.  Yes, it is said in Catholic churches, but I've heard it in Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican....I could go on.  But it is an essential truth at the heart of Christianity. 

 

Okay, KOB.  I have never said it in my IFB church, as it in not in the KJV or any MV.  If I am wrong, please show me.  Thank you:)

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Certainly the Roman Catholic Church does not get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God.  That is my point, Al.

 

Oh, right. So you were actually saying that using words and phrases that Roman Catholics use is no bad thing, so long, of course, as the words/phrases are true. 
 
Do you know what, it's a funny thing but when I read your post I thought you were saying 180 degrees opposite of that. I thought you were saying that using man-made phrases that the RCC use and moreover aren't in the KJV was something to avoid. My mistake, sorry about that Candlelight!
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Oh, right. So you were actually saying that using words and phrases that Roman Catholics use is no bad thing, so long, of course, as the words/phrases are true. 
 
Do you know what, it's a funny thing but when I read your post I thought you were saying 180 degrees opposite of that. I thought you were saying that using man-made phrases that the RCC use and moreover aren't in the KJV was something to avoid. My mistake, sorry about that Candlelight!

 

 

I just got your post in the other thread, Al.  No prOBlem, brother:)

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Candlelight,

 

I am sorry if I triggered some bad memories for you.  That was not my intention. I just said a common saying that is filled with truth, and did not realize it would trigger negative thoughts. 

 

No, it is not word for word from the Bible, but each of the three statements is true.

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Wretched:

The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

Reading any single passage before Rev. 20 we do not see a future millennial dispensation.

 

The general teaching of the OT prophecy is that Messiah will bring about an endless kingdom-age for Israel, at peace & untroubled by the nations. Always God is specially concerned with "my people" as in such Scriptures as Ez. 36 & Jer. 23 -

Jer. 23:Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

 

Ez. 36: 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

Messiah came, & completed his redeeming work by his suffering, death & resurrection. Peace was proclaimed to Israel from Pentecost onwards, & many thousands believed. God was fulfilling his prophecies, as Peter explained, but was God restoring the kingdom to Israel as the Apostles had asked?

 

In Acts 3, Peter quotes Moses - Deut. 18; John in Mat. 3 alludes to Mal. 4. Those who welcome their Messiah inherit the blessings. Those who reject him suffer the curse, & the wrath of God. 

 

The questions arising are: did Jesus do what was prophesied for those who received him? Or did the double rejection by the Jewish leaders frustrate God's plan & purpose, causing the prophesied blessings to be postponed to a future millennial dispensation?

 

When Peter quotes Moses under inspiration, he restates the prophetic warning with emphasis:

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

Notice also that Peter tells the people that the prophets are prophesying these days.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

Peter further reminds them of the first promise to Abraham of the blessing of the families of earth. God knew that they would reject their Messiah - AND persecute the Apostles. See Mat. 24. That rejection did not cause God to delay his plans for blessing Israel - see Acts 3:26. We need to read carefully to see if what happened in Acts was the fulfilemnt of prophecy. OBviously it wasn't what the Apostles expected in Acts 1, nor was it what the Jews expected of their Messiah.

 

In his first letter, Peter applies the blessings of Ex. 19 to the church. (1 Pet. 2) & in Rev. 1, Jesus assures his suffering people of their status, again alluding to Ex. 19.

Now therefore, if ye will OBey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

 

1 Pet. 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not OBtained mercy, but now have OBtained mercy.

 

Rev. 1:and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

We are not therefore looking for a millennial fulfilment of prophecy, but we need to see the ultimate fulfilment in a perfect NH&NE, & the present Gospel age as a time of calling the redeemed to God for salvation by new birth, through tribulation to glory - glory of souls in heaven, & in the resurrection in the NH&NE. Notice how the "my people - your God" promise of Lev. 26 is perfectly fulfilled in Rev. 21:

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

But that is after the Rev. 20 millennium, so how should we understand the millennium? Note first who dwells there:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John sees SOULS, not resurrection bodies - but their status is priests, reigning with Christ. Their status in heaven is the same as our status on earth, but their heavenly reign is not opposed by the ungodly as our earthly reign is. We are ambassadors on earth for our heavenly King in a world that rejects his authority & our status. So we suffer tribulation here as John & his companions did. (Rev. 1)

 

We as believers have experienced the first resurrection, aka new birth. Jesus teaches in John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That is salvation - we have new life in Christ.

 

Jesus continues by referring to a second, general resurrection:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That second resurrection is of ALL, in an hour, NOT separated by 1000 years.

 

The millennial reign is for the souls of believers in heaven & is their present experience, concurrent with the Gospel age on earth.

 

Satan IS restrained, Jesus the Lion-Lamb defeated him at Calvary, the nations do have the Gospel preached from the Apostolic time onwards, & Satan's captives are being freed. He will be released for a final rebellion before the coming of Christ for final judgement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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