Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

[prophet1]

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV



Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
¹⁰ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.

JOB 14:12-14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

JOB 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pe 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


JOB, Jesus and Peter agree.
That NO one rises until the Heavens depart as a scroll.

Resurrection is the physical body,
not the soul.

Saying that Jesus took the Souls of the Saints with Him to Heaven, has nothing to do with the bodily resurrection.


Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV



Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
⁹ (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
¹⁰ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.

JOB 14:12-14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

JOB 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pe 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


JOB, Jesus and Peter agree.
That NO one rises until the Heavens depart as a scroll.

Resurrection is the physical body,
not the soul.

Saying that Jesus took the Souls of the Saints with Him to Heaven, has nothing to do with the bodily resurrection.


Anishinaabe

[Covenanter]

I'm in basic agreement, Prophet, & contribute by my understanding.

Tribulation is for Saints. Wrath is for Unbelievers.

Generally true (e.g. 2 Thes. 1), but specifically the great trib of the Olivet prophecies is for Israel, not believers, who are told the signs & when to flee the doomed city.   

The best reason we have is Matthew 24.
All doctrine concerning The Second Coming should originate with Matthew 24.

Compare Mat. 24 with Mark 13 & Luke 21. Luke makes it very clear that the prophecy is of the destruction so I see no Biblical reason for making the prophecy concern the final coming of the Lord. All three emphasise that this generation (that rejected its Messiah) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.   

Matthew 24 is a private conversation with Jesus' church, after telling the Jews, at the end of Matthew 23, that they wouldn't see Him again, until His Second Coming.

But he does warn of his coming to judge them & give the Kingdom to others:

Luke 20:¹⁴ But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. ¹⁵ So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? ¹⁶ He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. ¹⁷ And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? ¹⁸ Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. ¹⁹ And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Jesus is specifically warning his hearers, NOT some future generation of Jews. And they understood. That took place in ad 70. He repeated that claim about them seeing him ascended - so they accused him of blasphemy. 

 

They ask Him, point blank, about the future, and He gives very direct answers.

He never mentions, to them, any pretrib blah, blah, blah.

Now, you can say He was talking to the Jews, but the end of Matthew 23 says you are wrong.

You can say they weren't His Church, but no one would say that 11 of those 12 were His church, 43 days later, so let's quit playing dispy games.

Quite right. All believers comprise Jesus' church - by whatever name they are called. Was there a church at Rome? Paul writes to: the called of Jesus Christ: ⁷ to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. There is no great division between different groups of believers. "We" make & use our definitions, but they MUST be informed by Scripture.

In light of that, Daniel, Revelation, Corinthians, and Thes. all line up quite nicely with Matthew 24.

You can say what isn't mentioned on I Thes. 4, but it's just that, not a detailed account, but rather a comforting reminder.
Agreed

OBviously, IIThes. 2 was written to provide context, since IThes. freaked them out. It lines up with Matthew 24, as well.
2 Thes 1 clearly speaks of the great separation when Jesus returns to vindicate the believers & destroy the wicked with the eternal tribulation of hell. Before that, in 2Thes. 2, the falling away & temple destruction must occur as prophesied by Jesus in his Olivet prophecy. That was the great unfulfilled prophecy of Jesus' ministry, apart from his final coming, again spoken of in Matthew & John as essentially one event:

Mat. 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

John 5:²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ²⁹ and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Rev. 14 is similar wording, but I think in the pre-70 context, it refers to the deliverance of the Jewish believers from Jerusalem before the destruction by the Romans.

Bottom line...Jesus put the jelly on the bottom shelf in Matthew 24, and it is our plumb line.
So - we see the level & the vertical by two conflicting metaphores

 

Ian

Anishinaabe

 

[LindaR]

IThes. 4 doesn't have the word "church" in it, either. Every single chapter in the Scripture that doesn't say "the church" in it, is to Israel...by your definition. So these men were never in "the church"?

Was 1 Thessalonians 4 part of Paul's epistle to the CHURCH at Thessalonica? 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

By your definition, there is no Israel!  By your definition, the Church is "spiritual" Israel. 

 

Every single chapter in Scripture, by your definition, that says "the church" you re-define as Israel.

 

You teach Replacement Theology...that the "church" has replaced Israel. The "church" claims all Israel's "blessings" but none of Israel's "curses".  You allegorize and spiritualize the majority (where it suits you) of Biblical prophecy in order to exclude Israel.

[Covenanter]

Was 1 Thessalonians 4 part of Paul's epistle to the CHURCH at Thessalonica? 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

By your definition, there is no Israel!  By your definition, the Church is "spiritual" Israel. 

 

Every single chapter in Scripture, by your definition, that says "the church" you re-define as Israel.

 

You teach Replacement Theology...that the "church" has replaced Israel. The "church" claims all Israel's "blessings" but none of Israel's "curses".  You allegorize and spiritualize the majority (where it suits you) of Biblical prophecy in order to exclude Israel.

We should seek to understand where others are coming from - that was a rhetorical comment of Prophet1.

 

We all agree that Paul's letters were written to churches, & that most of the NT churches comprised both Jews & Gentiles. We read them & take them to heart - ears to hear.  I presume that it was to avoid confusion that the term "church" was used to as a term for gatherings of Christ-believing Jews, as distinct from the synagogues. Paul carefully explains that all believers are to be considered children of Abraham, Jews, Israel, grafted into the olive tree.

 

Although many thousands of Jews, including priests, became Christians, they were, sadly, rejected by the Jews who rejected the Gospel of Jesus. Many of the generation that rejected its Messiah continued to rejected the Apostles & a division between "the church" & "Israel" was created by the Jewish unbelievers when they persecuted the Apostles. So they suffered the curses of which Moses, Malachi, John, & Peter warned (Deut. 18, Mal. 4, Mat. 3 & Acts 3)

 

The church so-called has vast numbers of unbelievers who are also under the curse. as are all who reject Jesus Christ, of every religion or none. 

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I think you will find that NONE of the contributors hold the view of "replacement theology" that is so abhorent & justifies persecution of the Jews. Israel is in no way excluded from the promises of God, but the promises are realised through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as again Paul makes clear in Romans 11 - ²³ And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief,

shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. ²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

All of us will rejoice at any turning of Jews & Israelis to Jesus. The Gospel call is to all men, everywhere.

[Genevanpreacher]

OKay, so, we can have a trump, which is admittedly the sound a trumpet makes, WITHOUT a trumpet? What did John say in Rev 4 about the voice? "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me". Wow-no mention of a trump here. Guess no trumpet, just a voice As a trumpet, so we're prOBably speaking of volume, not quality. BUt this, then, makes your argument invalid, by your own admission, because no trump. And the Bible says it will be the trump of God. A trump needs a trumpet, but the voice of a trumpet, by your estimation, does not equal a trump, particularly when it is specifically said to be a voice, not a trumpet.

 

Context of Rev 4:1- "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". This was a call to John to SEE what would be hereafter. This is not a rapture, any more than when Isaiah was brought to heaven, before the throne of God, or Ezekiel was brought to heaven before the throne of God. Like Isaiah and Ezekiel, it was to receive a message, a revelation from the mouth of God, to be passed on to the people of God.  Now might it have been a picture of the rapture? Perhaps. But really, I would more see the example of the two witnesses being brought up as possibly being the rapture, because they were dead, were resurrected and again, heard a voice that called them up. Though I believe, as with John, this was specifically for them, as a witness against the nations.

 

And seriously, I just don't see the point in arguing trump/trumpet-its a dumb, (yes I said it) argument, because to say this, that a trump, which is the sound a trumpet makes, will come without a trumpet, which trumps, is seriously twisting the plain meaning. A trumpet trumps. A trump emenates from a trumpet. I am seriously not seeing the prOBlem in understanding this. 

   As well, the coming of Christ for His redeemed is both said to the with the trump of God, AND that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised. So, trump...trumpet, but present at the same event.

 

Going back to Rev 14. Really, now, there is disagreement that there are two different things here? The scripture is really very plain about that. I will reiterate.

 

One: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

    Okay, Jesus' reaping completed. The Earth Was Reaped. He thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped. Period.

 

Two: "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God "

   Second, different harvest completed. An angel with a sickle comes out of the temple, and then ANOTHER angel comes out and says to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. He thrusts in his sickle, the vines are gathered and cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

See, in the first, we see a reaping. Jesus Christ is told to reap. B y the way, if you have done farming, you will know that reaping INCLUDES gathering, not just leaving it on the ground. That would be cutting, not reaping. So Jesus reaps His harvest.  THEN, an angel comes from the temple also wth a sickle, (which would not be needed, by the way, if Jesus hat merely cut and left His harvest lying on the ground the be gathered here.), ad the angel from the temple tells him to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. Clearly this is something different from what Jesus had done. Grapes you gather, you don't reap, you cut the clusters of grapes from the vine, which were then thrown into a press to be made to wine. No cutting of the vines.

 

So, my question remains: If this isn't the rapture, what is it? What is the harvest of the earth that is ready for Jesus to gather them? How is this not seen clearly as representing the church, which was called, in Matthew, wheat, who, at the sound of a trumpet, will be reaped after the days of tribulation?

 

Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology.  ,

 

Just an interesting note,(maybe to me only, but I like to share interesting stuff I come across):

 

As for the trumpet/trump idea, In 1 Corinthians 15, which is a great chapter to bring into this discussion, there is a verse that says in my Bible - "52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible , and we shall be changed." [1560 Geneva Bible]

 

And the old bibles - Tyndale, Great, and Bishops all used the word 'trump' for the second word 'trumpet' - "for the trump shall blow" -  in each 'Bible'.

 

And Oxford and Merriam-Webster both say the word trump is a trumpet.

[beameup]

 

And Oxford and Merriam-Webster both say the word trump is a trumpet.

There was a "trumpet" used by the Greeks in battle which was more like a megaphone and not a "musical instrument".

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was

as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:10

[Genevanpreacher]

As a trumpet is used in different 'tunes' in the armed forces, I am sure this trumpet 'sound' will be completely recognizable by all believers, and will bring complete joy to our hearts.

[beameup]

As a trumpet is used in different 'tunes' in the armed forces, I am sure this trumpet 'sound' will be completely recognizable by all believers, and will bring complete joy to our hearts.

1 Thess 4:13 bears looking into a bit.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven

with a shout,

with the voice of the archangel,

and [ kai - indeed ], with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

In Revelation you have "talking trumpets" wherein the voice

of the angel is associated with the sound of a trumpet.

In the case of a Greek megaphone-trumpet, it would be

the equivalent of an amplifier & speakers of today. LOUD.

Just a "conjecture".

[prophet1]

I'm in basic agreement, Prophet, & contribute by my understanding.

Matthew 24 is central, because we know He was only talking to people who He would use to establish His Church, and not to the Leaders of the False Religion of Judaism.

Anishinaabe

[Calvary]

pastors that are so bold as to lie to their congregations about what God requires of them deserve no earthly rewards for their lies.

Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??

 

Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.

 

Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?

 

Why would you think I am speaking of you?

Wow, what pride.

 

 

hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

[Genevanpreacher]

Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??

 

Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.

 

Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?

 

Why would you think I am speaking of you?

Wow, what pride.

 

 

hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

 

Is there something going on that has nothing to do with this thread? I am confused. Coffee time!!

[Invicta]

I meet a lot of Christians that believe that Matthew 24 applies to them ("church").

 

And this gospel of the Kingdom must be preached in all the world for a witness, and then the end shall come.

 

We don't preach this gospel.  Peter preached this gospel to Israel.  Israelites will once again be preaching this in future.

 

I actually believe there will be a similar +/- 40 year transition period like the baptism of Jesus-70AD period.

 

 

Yes, and when Peter preached that gospel to the Jews, they became Christians.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??
 
Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.
 
Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?
 
Why would you think I am speaking of you?
Wow, what pride.
 
 
hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

just keep living the lie, Calvary. You ain't convincing to anyone but the simple-minded.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Gp, Calvary can't accept the fact that everyone does not bow to his beliefs.