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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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I posted this link about a year ago in one of the rapture forums here on OB, but I am posting it again because it is a really good article:

 

It is called Pre-Wrath Confusion

Can't say I agree with all of it. Man makes his theories, and his doctrines, outlines everything in a nice, neat package and sells it as Bible-but the Bible, particularly on this subject/subjects, (as there is a lot to it), is not really that cut and dry in scripture. There is nowhere in scrioture that says, "And Jesus returned in exactly this manner at this point". So there is a lot of room for conjecture, which is why I always say that I have room to be proven wrong. I have not yet been, though. Most of the arguments, (the church won't be here, the influence of the Spirit will be gone, etc) are conjecture built on very shaky grounds. Someone who letteth WILL be taken out of the way, but the Bible says nowehre that it will be the Spirit of God. It is assumed the church will be gone because the Bible doesn't mention the church after Rev 6, but that could also be because the primary focus is Israel and the rest of the lost, not the church. That does not mean we won't be here. People who lived on  what would be the American continents are never mentioned anywhere in scripture-it doesn't mean they didn't exist, just that the focus wasn't on them.

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Can't say I agree with all of it. Man makes his theories, and his doctrines, outlines everything in a nice, neat package and sells it as Bible-but the Bible, particularly on this subject/subjects, (as there is a lot to it), is not really that cut and dry in scripture. There is nowhere in scrioture that says, "And Jesus returned in exactly this manner at this point". So there is a lot of room for conjecture, which is why I always say that I have room to be proven wrong. I have not yet been, though. Most of the arguments, (the church won't be here, the influence of the Spirit will be gone, etc) are conjecture built on very shaky grounds. Someone who letteth WILL be taken out of the way, but the Bible says nowehre that it will be the Spirit of God. It is assumed the church will be gone because the Bible doesn't mention the church after Rev 6, but that could also be because the primary focus is Israel and the rest of the lost, not the church. That does not mean we won't be here. People who lived on  what would be the American continents are never mentioned anywhere in scripture-it doesn't mean they didn't exist, just that the focus wasn't on them.

 

Interesting info - I heard this once years ago - JerUSAlem. I thought it kinda cool.

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You use Greek, I'll use Daniel:
Dan 12:1-2
Chapter 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Two reapings.
One Saved, One lost.

Not Rocket Science.



Anishinaabe

 

I agree, there can be two reapings at the same instant. The tares are said to be with us til separation time.

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Brother, I agree it is doctrinally speaking of the kingdom gospel but there is no reason it cannot be spiritually applied to the church preaching the gospel of the grace of God. 

 

I don't think 'spiritual' application applies when it comes to telling facts about what is, what will, and what has happened.

'Kingdom' Gospel? I have heard of this!

Assuming God has anything special for the 'nation' of Israel, I understand what could be 'taken' from this phrase, but we are all one now through Jesus Christ, and God is no respecter of persons?

What kingdom are we talking about here? Heaven, the New Jerusalem? Isn't the City Jerusalem brought down and sat on the earth when it is made new?

Why does there have to be two kingdoms? Is not Jesus Christ King of Kings? And Our ONLY Lord?

Seriously asked.

 

And in Daniel, are not we reigning with Christ in some of those dreams Daniel had? Where does it separate us from Jews/Israel in those dreams/visions?

Are we not all believers, and the same 'bride'?

 

Surely Jesus Christ does not get two wives!!

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Do missionaries preach the gospel of the Kingdom today?

 

Here is an example of Peter preaching the gospel concerning the gospel of the Kingdom:

Repent ye therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out

when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

and he shall send Jesus Christ which was before preached unto you

whom the heavens must receive until until the times of restitution of all things

which God hath spoken by the mouth of his prophets since the world began.

 

Note how they were expecting the Lord to soon return to set up his kingdom.

Millennium: "refreshing" the earth  and "restitution of all things"

 

Acts 10, 11, 13. Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and his crew (gentiles), then Saul/Paul introduced and preached the gospel to a mix of Jews and gentiles?

 

Key verses from Peter: Acts 10:34-43. 

Key verses from Paul: Acts 13:26-39.

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Brother, I agree it is doctrinally speaking of the kingdom gospel but there is no reason it cannot be spiritually applied to the church preaching the gospel of the grace of God. 

Different group, different Gospel.  The Gospel of the Circumcision involved the baptism & repentance of John and dealt with the whole nation of Israel ("Jews") and centered on the Millennial Reign of Messiah. They will recognize their corporate "sin" and repent at the end of the Great Tribulation, and thus hasten the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is much more "streamlined" - as found in John's Gospel.  John was exiled to Patmos and surrounded by Gentiles (to witness to), and wrote his Gospel 20+ years after the destruction of the Temple.

 

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;  Galatians 2:7
 
However, according to Matthew 24:14, this gospel of the (coming) Kingdom (ie: Millennium) will be once again preached by Israelites ("Jews") during the Tribulation:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
A few questions I pose:
How was Paul saved?  Could this happen to the "144,000"?
Did the gift of supernaturally knowing other languages cease with Acts,
or could this "gift" be given again during the Tribulation?
Was the instantant supernatural transportation of Phillip from the Ethopian
a "one-time" event, or could this ability become available during the Tribulation?
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I understand that the necessary materials for the building of the Holy Place and Most Holy Place are already available, and with current technology could be raised within three days.

All the priests have been trained, all of their garments have been made, and all the implements of the Temple have been produced.  The "temple proper" is really not that large.

All that is needed is a "shared arrangement" for the Temple Mount (one group for Fridays and one for Saturdays).  This "shared agreement" will occur in the future as part of the "Mid-East Peace Process".

 

PS: There is one feast that Gentiles will be required to honor during the Millennium and that is the feast of Tabernacles.

The feast of Firstfruits would also be a good candidate for the "harpazo". :)

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Ukelelemike

You make a good point that I will have to look into concerning the two reapings there. 

My initial response to this though is that since there is nothing said about the first reaping in Rev. 14 that anything that we do say is conjecture.  There is simply not enough information in the passage to make any comparison to anything else.   I still don't see this as any reason to drop the pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ.  

 

that's how I see it. 

Kinda covered up in a lot of work right now, but I have this on my short list to look into.

 

In Christ,

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I wanted to start this post so as not to hijack another, and because some seem genuinely confused as to why an IFB pastor, particularly, would hold to what to them, (and to me once, as well) comes close to perhaps heresy or a departure of the faith.

 

Let me first say that despite how strongly we hold to such a doctrine, one way or the other, it is not what we might consider a fundamental, or it shouldn't be IMHO, and so, I have never seen it as a separation issue, though I know of some who do. I won't judge them-its between them and the Lord.

 

I was not raised IFB-it is something I turned to in my 20's. However, saved in a C&MA church and raised in various churches in my youth, one things they all agreed on was a pre-tribulation rapture position. So, since my youth this is what I believed.

 

Shorlty after I was married to my wife, back in about 2005-ish, my wife began to seriously question me concerning  the various positions on the timing of the catching away/rapture, whatever you want to call it. I explained to her all that I had ever been taught on the subject: The entire tribulation is the outpouring of God's wrath., so we won't go through it; it is for the Jews, the time of JacOB's trouble, so the church won't be there; Rev 4:1 seems to suggest the rapture as John sees a door open in heaven, (isn't Jesus called 'the door'?) and a voice that says "Come up hither", ( voice of the archangel?), so this must depict the rapture JUST before the tribulation is seen to begin; 1Thes 4  says, concerning the rapture, "Comfort one another with this', how can we find comfort in knowing we will go through great tribulation? And so on.

 

So, she began to lay out a pretty extensive argument both against the PreTR and for the PostT/PreWR Trib.  To go into it all, I haven't time. But I told her that, to make her happy, and because I want to please God before man, OR her, I would take what we have both said, and prayerfully study it out for myself. I took about a year looking it over in scripture and praying over it before I was finally willing to say that I had to agree with her. I knew I was taking a stand considerably different than 99% of other IFB's and might lost friends and associates over it, but I believed, as I do now, that pleasing God was more important. 

 

Some of what I found was, yes, Israel is the focus of the tribulation time. However, nowhere do we see that this must mean the church is not in existence. Jew have continued to live and thrive during the 'church age', and even with Israel being re-established as a nation, here we still are. The focus on them doesn't necessarily mean we can't be here any more-it is assumption, no more.

 

I have yet to hear anyone give a good explanation of what occurs in Rev 14:14. No, it isn't Jesus sitting on the church-we see Jesus in the clouds with a sickle, reaping His harvest. This takes place shortly after the seventh trumpet sounds, the last trumpet mentioned in scripture. We also see an angel shout to Him that the time has come.  Last trumpet, Jesus in the clouds, voice of an angel from the temple, (an archangel?). sounds like about all that is needed to match what occurs in 1Thes 4 return of Christ. NO, we don't see those who sleep in Christ coming with Him, but that doesn't mean they aren't there-it is the ONLY specific example we are given of Jesus reaping His harvest, and it is followed immediately by the outpouring of God's wrath. Apparently the entire tribulation is NOT God's wrath, because we see a specific time the wrath falls.  

 

I will continue when I have time. There's more! Please read, comment if you like, but again, this is not comprehensive, so no fights just yet.

 

My question to you Mike would be help me to understand when the Judgment Seat of Christ will take place, in your system?

Seems to me that most of the papers I have read about this can´t answer the question without really doing some fancy footwork, loose interpretations and ignoring of some pretty clear passages.

 

So, when does the Judgement Seat of Christ take place in your system of teaching?

 

God bless,

calvary

 

(hey..... I asked Mike, so let´s give him a chance to answer me...... I really don´t care to muddle up the threads with seventeen debates going on at once with seventeen folks that I could prOBably care less about what they think.... so a little respect to my request, .....Mike, would love an answer - thank you)

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My question to you Mike would be help me to understand when the Judgment Seat of Christ will take place, in your system?

Seems to me that most of the papers I have read about this can´t answer the question without really doing some fancy footwork, loose interpretations and ignoring of some pretty clear passages.

 

So, when does the Judgement Seat of Christ take place in your system of teaching?

 

God bless,

calvary

 

(hey..... I asked Mike, so let´s give him a chance to answer me...... I really don´t care to muddle up the threads with seventeen debates going on at once with seventeen folks that I could prOBably care less about what they think.... so a little respect to my request, .....Mike, would love an answer - thank you)

To be honest even when pre-trib, I never thought too much about the time of the judgment seat of Christ timing. We know it will happen, and unlike the Great White Throne judgment, and the Sheep/Goats judgment, the Bible doesn't specifically say, so no matter what position we take, it would be conjecture and fancy footwork.

 

The thought of course is that, if the rapture was pre-trib, it gives the Lord the next seven years for the judgment, before His return. However, my question is, does God NEED seven literal, earthly years for an event occurring in Heaven, presumably outside of the constraints of time and space laws that rule the rest of the universe? If the Lord raptured us out a day, a month, or a year before His return, could He not complete a judgment of the saved, if we are all, like the Lord, no longer under the constraints of time?

 

Its also possible that, from the time of the first believers arriving in glory, after the ascension of Christ, their judgments may be on-going as they arrive. Nowhere does the Bible say it will be one judgment of all saved all at once.

 

So, since the Bible doesn't do us the courtesy of telling us when it occurs, I will just hold that it WILL occur as the Lord says it will, and be pleased when it does.

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 I never thought too much about the time of the judgment seat of Christ timing. 

 

 

The Judgment Seat of Christ happens immediately following the rapture of the church which itself precedes the 7 year tribulation.

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I have yet to hear anyone give a good explanation of what occurs in Rev 14:14. No, it isn't Jesus sitting on the church-we see Jesus in the clouds with a sickle, reaping His harvest. This takes place shortly after the seventh trumpet sounds, the last trumpet mentioned in scripture. We also see an angel shout to Him that the time has come.  Last trumpet, Jesus in the clouds, voice of an angel from the temple, (an archangel?). sounds like about all that is needed to match what occurs in 1Thes 4 return of Christ. NO, we don't see those who sleep in Christ coming with Him, but that doesn't mean they aren't there-it is the ONLY specific example we are given of Jesus reaping His harvest, and it is followed immediately by the outpouring of God's wrath. Apparently the entire tribulation is NOT God's wrath, because we see a specific time the wrath falls.  

 

Bro Mike,

 

I know you've got a lot of questions you're currently fielding in this thread, so I hope you don't mind adding one more. I think it's kind of critical to the reasoning of your position because one of your main premises is on Rev 14:14 and the last trump.

 

Here's my question...how do you view Rev 12-14, specifically Rev 12? The seventh/last trumpet occurs in Rev 11:15 and there is a lot of activity between that and what you're proposing is the rapture in Rev 14:14.  So I guess the main thing to answer is whether you view Revelation strictly chronologically (as far as events in the world vs. how experienced the vision) and Rev 11 moves to Rev 12 to Rev 13 to Rev 14 without interruption before the seven vial judgments come in Rev 15? I understand Rev 12-14 as a parenthesis in the timeline. How one views this chronology necessitates completely different explanations of the characters and images in Rev 12-14, as well as the timing of such things as the rapture.

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