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What Advice Do You Have Or Same-Sex Couples

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I feel like this question has been answered to death... So im just here to poke the horse..
*poke poke*


I'm on another Christian forum and a similar discussion has logged over 400 posts and still going. So the horse is still kickin.

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Only 1/2 of the issue was answered to death.

 

Side two ----- same aforementioned pair of women refuse to repent, don't come to the church but send the children.  Is the response of the parents in the church concerning their children and these going to be the same as with other lost people's children in the church? What if one or all of these kids get saved, does that change the parameters of fellowship with your children?

 

I'm not talking unfettered, "close friendship", I'm talking attitude and interaction.

 

FWIW -- KOB has a way of bringing out the worst side of me (most lawyers do, and I wavered about 3 months over whether we were dealing with a case worker or lawyer but had that sorted out a couple of years ago), but the question is legitimate and was actually presented with only about a 10% personal rub in its manner.

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Very real scenario:

 

Two women have lived together for 12 years in a same-sex relationship.  They have gone to another state to get legally married and now reside in your state.  Through in vitro fertilization and an anonymous sperm donor through a sperm bank, they have conceived and are raising three children, ages 6, 4 and 6 months.  They come to your church and would like to join.

 

 

If they come to your church and would like to join then your pastor isn't doing something right. 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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I have not read all of the conversation here.  This response is to the OP.

 

This may seem to be shocking to some here, but I know this from experience.  The scenario described here is nothing more than sodomites attempting to live outside of the boundaries of Scripture.  These types of people who have hardened their hearts against God already (see Romans 1:18-32) need to repent of their sin, which includes "breaking up" with their sodomite "partner."  God calls that sin an abomination. 

Are they welcome to attend our church?  Sure.  But I can tell you that they will not stick around a real Bible-Believing, Bible Preaching church very long if they are set on continuing in their vile "relationship." 

They can be told by someone in love and charity that they are sinning against God in their relationship, and they need to make things right.  They are doing more harm to those children by carrying on in their current "relationship" than they would if they "split up."  Boys need to have a REAL MAN around to teach them how to be a man.  Girls need to know the love and care of a FATHER.  When the Biblical family unit is not established, nothing good comes from it, and the children are left without a rudder. 

 

The prOBlem I see with Americans now, and it is creeping into our churches, is that because we know people who are sodomites, we allow our emotions to take over our thought process, instead of going to the Bible to see what God thinks.  It is no secret what God thinks about sodomy and sodomites.  Sure, we should preach the gospel to them, but if they are not willing to repent of their sin of sodomy, I don't see much hope of them being truly born again in the first place.   Maybe there are exceptions, but that's how I see it.  If the person witnessing to them does not confront that sin directly (in a loving, compassionate, concerned manner!), then they are not really doing their jOB anyway.  Sin is an offence to God, and this particular sin is especially outrageous in light of Romans 1:18-32. 

 

In Christ,

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There is so much apostasy today. In order to be politically correct, churches have begun to compromise by either refusing to touch the issue, or outright embracing homosexuality as acceptable, normal even. I live in Georgia. In 2004, the voters overwhelmingly voted into law an amendment to our state constitution defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. This is now being targeted by a handful of sodomite activists. The local news ran the story and the comments were disheartening, to say the least. I was shocked by how many people were on there saying things like, "I'm a Christian, and I think this is great! It's about time we got on the right side of history! My cousin is gay and married, and he plays piano in his church, and they adopted children that would have never been in a loving home if it weren't for them. I mean, it's their business and Jesus says do not judge". I was fully expecting most comments to be from liberal non-christians saying things like, "separation of church and state!" Instead, it was a bunch of people professing to be Christians talking about how they hoped the law was overturned, and how those of us who rebuke this sin are "going to hell for judging".

 

I was reminded of Isaiah 5:20 :(

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Watered down and secular Christians are among the worst enemies of Christianity in America. It's common for these sorts to take to the news programs and talk about "God is love" and "judge not" out of context. While voicing "Christian" support for certain sins, they denounce biblical Christians as bigoted, mean-spirited, wrong thinking, and worse.

 

Watered down and secular Christianity is being held up as being true Christians while actual biblical Christians are being labeled as homophOBes, racists, bigots, radical fundamentalists, haters and unchristian.

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Watered down and secular Christians are among the worst enemies of Christianity in America. It's common for these sorts to take to the news programs and talk about "God is love" and "judge not" out of context. While voicing "Christian" support for certain sins, they denounce biblical Christians as bigoted, mean-spirited, wrong thinking, and worse.

Watered down and secular Christianity is being held up as being true Christians while actual biblical Christians are being labeled as homophOBes, racists, bigots, radical fundamentalists, haters and unchristian.


God didn't intend for the bible to be worshipped. "bible believing", " biblical Christians", etc, these words point to a book but not the Author.

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     I am hereby withdrawing from Online Baptist. I will not participate on a forum that allows members (such as kindofblue1977) to promote ungodly and wicked lifestyles. Yes, that is exactly what this member is doing. In the name of tolerance and love, he or she (I am not sure if this member is a man or woman) is promoting homosexualty and lesbianism. I have asked the moderator to delete this thread and have also asked him/her to ban kindofblue1977. Neither one has happened, so (with a heavy heart) I am hereby withdrawing my membership from this board.

 

Sincerely,

Bro Steve Smith

brosmith@pioneerbaptist.org

 

Personally, I saw no promotion of sin.  If a question is prohibited, how is one supposed to gain the benefit of others' wisdom?

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If one is truly following the Bible, they are following the Author and thus are a biblical Christian. If one is "Bible believing" then they believe what the Bible says about the Author, salvation, Christian living and what it means to follow Christ.

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God didn't intend for the bible to be worshipped. "bible believing", " biblical Christians", etc, these words point to a book but not the Author.

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

These words point to God as being the Word. That Word directly inspired the Bible we have in our hands. It is everything God wants us to know about Him and with regard to how we are to conduct our lives. Bible believing, biblical Christians believe this. The word points to God and God points to the word.

 

Check out these verses:

 

Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became OBedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 

Psalms 138:1-2 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee. 2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

The name of Jesus is above all names...AMEN! Yet His word has been magnified even above His name.

 

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

It is by this word that we will judged.

 

Therefore, I am PROUD to be a "Bible believing", "Biblical Christian"

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I advise the word of God for any situation.

 

Acts 26:20 “But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”

 

It may not be popular but that is the example God has set forth for his people.

 

2 Chronicles 18:13 "And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, even what my God saith, that will I speak."

 

There are priests in abundance ready to support any sin and they have an adoring crowd.

 

Jeremiah 5:31 “The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?”

 

John 12:28 “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

 

Do accordingly.

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God didn't intend for the bible to be worshipped. "bible believing", " biblical Christians", etc, these words point to a book but not the Author.

 

Well...it used to be enough to say that one was a Christian, which was a donning of the name of Christ--the Author. However, as people have walked away from the Christ of the Bible and made Him in their own image it has become increasingly, and depressingly, necessary to identify which Christ we follow. "Bible-believing Christian" used to be a redundant term, but not so much anymore. According the latest Barna State of the Bible report, 90% of professing "Christians" believe the Bible is a holy or sacred book. Wow....89%?? That means 11% of American Christians, or roughly 26 million "Christians", don't believe in the Bible at all. How about this one...when asked if the Bible was the literal or inspired Word of God, only 63% said yes. That means there are almost 89 million "Christians" who don't believe what God says about Himself.

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Very real scenario:

 

"they have conceived" 

No, this is false; is not the case you've presented and neither is it possible; the one woman and a man committed adultery through out of marriage procreation.

What do you do?  What do you tell them?  What position should the church take on this?  This puts two sins in at odds.  Homosexuality and divorce.  Maybe.  Perhaps they have decided to remain celibate.  

I give them the gospel. It is irrelevant "what position should the church take;" what the Bible says bears the only relevance. These two women set out to possibly "put two sins at odds." "remain celibate," what sin is covered by an attempt to do good works?

I am curious to know what your advice would be.  Here we have three children who are well cared for, love their mothers, and are excelling in every area of life.  If you advise them to separate and "divorce" (that is what would occur, no matter what you call it), the children would be harmed.  If you advise them to stay together, do you tell them they have to be celibate?

My advice is do what God's word says. The three children are excelling at the immediate not at the permanent; unless you forgot to mention they also are studying for the ministry and are rejecting the example of these two sinful women. Again, it isn't my words which will make any difference for these women, it is God's word. The women decided the course for these children, the selfish desires of a sin seeking life controlled their actions; with fore thought they risked the children. Sad but, "lust of the flesh, eyes, and pride" have terrible results; they have just proven God's word true. As far as an attempt to 'blame' me or God; sorry but the responsibility for this situation rests on these women and those who promote the sin.

How should the church address same-sex families in these situations?  How can the church possibly reach them if we advocate tearing their family apart? 
Again, the church is irrelevant. How does God's word approach these compounding sins? Their own lust, whichever form, created this situation; the tearing began with the women and those who provide for and allow for the sin in the first place. You're always promoting this here, in a public forum, how are you going to approach God with it?
I am friends with a couple in this very situation. I never hear Christians talk about the realities, and am curious as to your thoughts:

If your church promotes the acceptance of this sin and it is your heartfelt desire to help prevent this sin scenario then leave that church and find one which teaches God's truth.

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Follow up question:

 

I understand everyone here says that a same-sex couple should not be allowed to join the church unless they separated.  It would not be enough for them to remain celibate.  My question is, do you apply the same line of logic to other sins involving families?

 

Example:  Husband was unfaithful years ago.  Husband and wife divorce. Husband has remarried.  They come to your church and want to join.  Do you require that they separate?  Do you consider that Husband and new wife are married according to the God?  Same issues are involved here as the same-sex couple.  How do you handle this?  Is the husband living in sin because he remarried?  If they had a child together to you require them to separate before joining?

 

 

Does it matter why the first divorce occurred?  If a divorced woman and her children start attending and want to join, do you ask her why she got a divorce?  Is that relevant?  What if she left because he beat her or was unfaithful. 

 

These seem to be the same types of issues with same-sex couples.  I'm curious as if you see them the same or differently.

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Follow up question:

 

I understand everyone here says that a same-sex couple should not be allowed to join the church unless they separated.  It would not be enough for them to remain celibate.  My question is, do you apply the same line of logic to other sins involving families?

 

Example:  Husband was unfaithful years ago.  Husband and wife divorce. Husband has remarried.  They come to your church and want to join.  Do you require that they separate?  Do you consider that Husband and new wife are married according to the God?  Same issues are involved here as the same-sex couple.  How do you handle this?  Is the husband living in sin because he remarried?  If they had a child together to you require them to separate before joining?

 

 

Does it matter why the first divorce occurred?  If a divorced woman and her children start attending and want to join, do you ask her why she got a divorce?  Is that relevant?  What if she left because he beat her or was unfaithful. 

 

These seem to be the same types of issues with same-sex couples.  I'm curious as if you see them the same or differently.

What is it you are really after with your questions anyway?  I will answer one you asked.

"Same issues are involved here as the same-sex couple."  I don't think so!

Now I will answer your real question you want to ask, but won't, for some reason.  Yes, I prOBably am a hypocrite.  Not totally consistent in my thinking and not perfect yet.

Now let's move along.

 

 

God bless,

Larry

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Example:  Husband was unfaithful years ago.  Husband and wife divorce. Husband has remarried.  They come to your church and want to join.  Do you require that they separate?  Do you consider that Husband and new wife are married according to the God?  Same issues are involved here as the same-sex couple.


To the best of my recollection, divorce is not called an abomination like homosexuality is.

I am begining to wonder if my initial impression about the OP was wrong, based on the part of the quote that I have "bolded". If it is a serious question, that is one thing. If is is an attempt at justification, that's another.

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Case by case, but , yes...Adultery has to be addressed, it is commanded.

1Co 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


Anishinaabe

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Follow up question:

 

I understand everyone here says that a same-sex couple should not be allowed to join the church unless they separated.  It would not be enough for them to remain celibate.  My question is, do you apply the same line of logic to other sins involving families?

 

It depends. If we're talking about a man and woman who have children, are simply shacking up, refuse to marry, then no, I don't think they should be allowed in any sort of leadership or service position within the church, nor do I believe they are eligible to participate in the Lord's Supper. That doesn't mean they can't come to church, but they aren't fit for church service, particularly as a leader or elder.

 

The scenario you presented in this post does not line up with the scenario you presented in your OP. One involves a relationship that God calls an abomination worthy of death. In the New Testament, it says that God gave them over to vile affections, that they committed shameful acts with other men. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God call divorce an abomination worthy of death, nor vile affections. It says He hates divorce. Why? Because it was never His plan for marriage; however, He made certain allowances for it. 

 

Second, the Bible is clear that sins committed prior to accepting Christ are wiped clean once we become saved. That doesn't there won't be lingering consequences of our sin (like, say, a promiscuous person contracting an incurable STD), but they will not bind us to hell. The Bible is clear that if someone commits the sin of divorce that it is an even bigger sin to divorce a subsequent spouse and try and be reunited with an ex. Yes, if both parties remain single and there can be reconciliation, that's wonderful, but if remarriages have already occurred it's just as much of a sin to divorce the new spouse as it was to divorce the previous one. 

 

Lastly, God does not recognize any sodomite relationship as a "marriage", regardless of what they believe or the state they live in. Legally, they are married, but they never will be in God's eyes. So asking them to separate in the spirit of repentance is not inconsistent, or hypocritical, if the church doesn't force the same thing on divorced and remarried heterosexuals. Now, most Bible-preaching churches will not permit a divorced and remarried man (save for cases where it is biblically permitted) to be a pastor or elder (deacon) in the church. The only churches I know of that will not allow someone who is remarried to join without divorcing their current spouse are Mennonite and Charity fellowships. I don't believe this practice is in line with the Scriptures, but that is their choice and, being divorced and remarried, I have the blessed freedom to choose not to join a Mennonite congregation. Just as a same-sex couple can certainly choose to join one of the hundreds (and growing!) number of churches that are "gay affirming". There are entire online databases dedicated to helping homosexuals find churches that will accept them and their sin.

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In order to avoid lawsuits, we have spelled out that we interpret our KJV as disallowing participation by homosexuals in our worship, period.

 

A sodomite is not a candidate for church membership, regenerated people only.

 

But what about the same-sex couple who is celibate?  What do you do with them?  

 

Sodomites are unregenerated people who are not eligible for membership in a New Testament Church of the kind that Jesus Christ built and died for.  The first thing you do with them is share the gospel.  If they repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, with a new heart and new desires and the Holy Ghost within them, they begin to get in accord with God and become eligible for church membership.  

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Follow up question:

 

I understand everyone here says that a same-sex couple should not be allowed to join the church unless they separated.  It would not be enough for them to remain celibate.  My question is, do you apply the same line of logic to other sins involving families?

 

Does it matter why the first divorce occurred?  If a divorced woman and her children start attending and want to join, do you ask her why she got a divorce?  Is that relevant?  What if she left because he beat her or was unfaithful. 

 

These seem to be the same types of issues with same-sex couples.  I'm curious as if you see them the same or differently.

 

1 Chronicles 22:6-11 Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel. 7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God: 8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. 9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. 11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.

 

I read the above this morning and it brought to mind this topic. David was an adulterer. Not only that, he committed murder in the hopes of covering up that adultery, but as we all know, there is no hiding our sin from God. We also see that when Nathan confronted David with his sin, David was truly repentant. If he were not God would not have put away his sin as is recorded in 2 Samuel:

 

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

 

David still paid a price in that the child conceived from his adultery died in infancy, but immediately following these events Bathsheba conceived again and from this union (begun in adultery) was born the wisest king known to man and the builder of the Lord’s Temple. David was not required to turn Bathsheba away, and the child born from this union became perhaps the greatest king ever known.

Throughout his life David paid a dear cost for his adulteries (the child mentioned above, Amnon, Absalom, etc.), but he was also blessed by some of these same marriages (I think of Abigail and Bathsheba here).

 

Does God approve of adultery or polygamy? A quick review of scripture would tell us the answer is “OBviously not”, but he can and has blessed these unions and the fruit that they bore.

 

There is no such case anywhere in the Bible when referring to homosexuality. In fact (to my recollection), no homosexual couple is ever even recognized in the Bible. The most prominent record concerning homosexuality is Sodom and Gomorrah, and that didn’t turn out to good for them, nor to the person who looked back upon it (Lot's wife).

 

From this (in my mind) I see that God abhors adultery and homosexuality, but he can work with the former (pending repentance) because it is still a union between a man and a woman which is the natural order of things as He designed it (See Gen 2:21-25). Homosexuality has always been unseemly and an abomination. God did not design us this way. I think this is evident when you look at the many studies that have been done that show the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than normal. The only true repentance from this sin is to terminate and abstain from such relationships.

Edited by 282Mikado

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I believe comparing same-sex marriage with many second marriages is a very good comparison.

 

Husband has an affair.  Leaves wife.  Remarries.  Husband and new wife come to church and try to join.  What does repentance mean in that situation?  What if husband and new wife have a child together?  Must husband leave second wife and return to his first wife, who is innocent int he matter?  Does God recognize the second marriage?  What if husband a year or two later recognizes he was wrong and asks God to forgive him?  What does repentance mean in that situation?  Leaving and divorcing wife 2 and returning to wife 1?  Or staying with Wife 2?  What if husband had affair with wife 2, she got pregnant, then he left wife 1 and married wife 2?

 

The situation is no different than same-sex marriage.  Especially if children are involved.  A family was established as a result of sinful behavior.  If the parties seek to follow God, the question becomes how does God want to work in the midst of their situation?  What does repentance mean?  How does God's grace work and create something good out of what was made from sinful actions?  

These things happen folks.  God's grace has to be present in some way for those who seek to follow him.  What does repentance mean in these situations and how is God's grace present? 

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