Heretic List

[prophet1]

Prophecies cease, prophesying has not.

There are languages that are no longer spoken...tongues cease.
There is knowledge that we lose, like the library at Alexandria, when it was burned.
We only have a few lines of any of the prophecies of Enoch, Noah, Elijah, Elisha, etc....prophecies cease.
Every word that Jesus spoke aloud....prophecies cease.
I Corinthians 13 is about spiritual gifts, but it doesn't say that the gifts cease.


Anishinaabe

[heartstrings]

Some of the prophecies, in the Word of God, have yet to be fulfilled. But the cannon of the scripture is complete and 'prophesying' has ceased. Therefore, if someone tells you that God gave him/her a "new revelation", "vision", "prophecy" or anything which doesn't line up or cannot be corroborated with the Word of God.....run!

 

Such as this......

 

Mar 13:21

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

[DaveW]

1 Cor 13

 8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

 10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



It's not really that hard.

Charity never faileth. Never.

Prophecies SHALL fail.
Tongues SHALL cease.
Knowledge SHALL vanish away.
Shall - future tense.

None of these can be "that which is perfect".
Charity was current and "never faileth".

Prophecies, tongues, knowledge were all current miraculous happenings at that time, and all three in their miraculous forms would end in one way or another.

Vs 9 speaks about knowledge.

Vs 10 speaks about "that which is perfect" contrasted against vs9's things "in part".
Vs 11 speaks about understanding.
Vs 12 speaks about seeing clearly, and relates that to knowing or understanding.

The context is knowledge.
It is talking about perfection of knowledge.
Now seeing as vs 8 already said miraculous knowledge would cease, this is perfect knowledge - the Word of God.

It can not be perfect love - the context will not allow it.
It can not be Christ because there is no mention nor indication of Christ in the passage.

This makes no cross references - this is a basic exploration of the single passage itself.

As certain people have taken to stating here lately, THIS is rightly dividing......

[AVBibleBeliever]

First of all, 1 Cor 13 must be understood in the context of chapters 12 and 14, chapter 14 being specifically about the abuse of tongues and prophesying. But some background on certain gifts would be in order.

 

The last thing Christ told His church 11 disciples before He ascended was preach the gospel to every creature, and do so to the uttermost ends of the earth (Mark 16, Matthew 28, Acts 1:8). One problem with that: how do I go to Russia and preach if I don't know the language? Hence this is one reason why in Acts 2 you see that the manifestation of tongues was a recognizable foreign language. It was a miraculous evangelical tool used to expedite the spread of the gospel to places where the language had not been learned by witnesses. this tongue needed no interpretation for it was understood by the hearers.

 

Tongues were also used for a sign to confirm that the gospel had in fact been offered to the Gentiles. The saved Jews were skeptical of Gentile conversions, but when the Gentiles spoke in tongues to be exact they spoke in Hebrew, the Jews stated "the Gentiles have received the Holy Ghost EVEN AS WE HAVE". (Acts 10:47). The Jews were very sign oriented (1 Cor 1:22). Just as Christ ministry was confirmed by signs and wonders (Hebrews 2:4), the apostles were as well (Acts 19:12). But, as time went on, and the church became united and established, these gifts began to fade. Paul could not always heal everyone ("Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick" 2 Tim 4:20). Timothy needed to drink something other than water to cure his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). 

 

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 in fact DOES state that tongues and prophesying will cease (v8), and knowledge through prophesying that was in part. The question is, why was it "in PART"? And this is where the reference to 'that which is perfect' is clearly the Scriptures. Not sure if it is the Bible and we are not the first to have difference on this I found this goes back a hundred years or more.  What you have shared is what I was taught an Bible college.   I sometimes think it is Jesus.  I still have question mark next to this after many years of study I will lean mostly to the bible but I could be wrong

 

Paul uses the analogy of explaining a transitional period between his childhood and adulthood. This is a transitional period that describes the beginning of the church and transition from the law into the age of grace. And because of this transition, there is no written authority yes there was a written authority it was just not a complete and whole as we have today as of yet which is why they only knew in part. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 gives a picture of this fact as the "rules" had not yet been laid out until Paul addressed and gave the rules based on his apostolic authority. Remember Paul commended the Bereans for going to the authoritative word to see what he taught was true

 

Paul says in verse 12 that we see through a glass darkly, but THEN, face to face. A man who looks at his reflection in water sees himself face to face (Proverbs 27:19), and in James 1:22-23 the word is viewed as a mirror (glass). At that time, the NT revelation was not completed so the mirror offered a partial reflection. But when the mirror is completed, then man can look in the glass and see himself as God sees him and be known even as God knows him because God has fully revealed the doctrines of which He wants the NT church to live by. But that mirror is still the same some do see it as a class darkly But i get what you are saying.  But doesn't this have to do with the believer character and not the completed or lack of completed scriptures - context is everything.  We would never look face to face with a book but to a person yes.

 

Written scripture was delegated to the apostles as they were the authorities over the church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). Paul was the last apostle. 1 Cor 15:8-9. Thus apostolic authority and revelation ended with Paul, and the last apostle to die was John which closed the canon of Scripture with the book of Revelation.

 

Now there are a few reasons why "that which is perfect" is not Christ, and is not charity.  I never thought of it being Charity

 

*Christ is not a "that". This one is obvious. When Christ is referred with a proper noun, the word "perfect" would be capitalized (see 1 Tim 6:15) he is that perfect man

 

*Paul said charity NEVER faileth, so if charity is perfect now, then 'when that which is perfect SHALL come' can not be a reference to charity. Thus, the perfect thing described was something yet to come, but charity was spoken of as something that could be put on now. And again, this is being emphasized by Paul because of the abuse of the spiritual gifts and the pride of some having gifts that others didn't, and Paul is telling them, if you have charity, you won't be so egotistical, which is especially important considering these gifts are going to vanish pretty soon. It would be senseless for Paul to tell them how urgent it was to put on charity in comparison to passing gifts if those gifts were intended to linger on. The fact that these gifts would pass in contrast with Paul's admonishing them to focus on charity with such urgency shows that Paul expected them to pass soon.  having charity also means not using a gift at a certain time.

 

I'll add a little bit more to this later. Can't wait

Actually you have some pretty good stuff here (good food) and other than some minor corrections of what I believe in blue bold Italics, I agree with most of what you said.

 

Are you dispensational in your study style?

[Dr James Ach]

My corrections to your corrections are in red

 

The last thing Christ told His church 11 disciples before He ascended was preach the gospel to every creature, and do so to the uttermost ends of the earth (Mark 16, Matthew 28, Acts 1:8). One problem with that: how do I go to Russia and preach if I don't know the language? Hence this is one reason why in Acts 2 you see that the manifestation of tongues was a recognizable foreign language. It was a miraculous evangelical tool used to expedite the spread of the gospel to places where the language had not been learned by witnesses. this tongue needed no interpretation for it was understood by the hearers.

 

Nope, it was church. Read Acts 1:6-8. The disciples were in the upper room, notice Acts 1:13. But nevertheless, the disciples were still part of the church, they were the foundations of it. Eph 2:20

Tongues were also used for a sign to confirm that the gospel had in fact been offered to the Gentiles. The saved Jews were skeptical of Gentile conversions, but when the Gentiles spoke in tongues to be exact they spoke in Hebrew, perhaps, could have been Aramaic: Jews were bilingual. the Jews stated "the Gentiles have received the Holy Ghost EVEN AS WE HAVE". (Acts 10:47). The Jews were very sign oriented (1 Cor 1:22). Just as Christ ministry was confirmed by signs and wonders (Hebrews 2:4), the apostles were as well (Acts 19:12). But, as time went on, and the church became united and established, these gifts began to fade. Paul could not always heal everyone ("Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick" 2 Tim 4:20). Timothy needed to drink something other than water to cure his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). 

 

 

 

Paul uses the analogy of explaining a transitional period between his childhood and adulthood. This is a transitional period that describes the beginning of the church and transition from the law into the age of grace. And because of this transition, there is no written authority yes there was a written authority it was just not a complete and whole as we have today as of yet which is why they only knew in part. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 gives a picture of this fact as the "rules" had not yet been laid out until Paul addressed and gave the rules based on his apostolic authority. Remember Paul commended the Bereans for going to the authoritative word to see what he taught was true

 

I didn't say there was no written authority at all, there was no written authority on the specific subject that Paul was addressing. 1 Cor 7:6 ("I speak this by permission, and not of commandment") 1 Cor 7:12 (" But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away") 1 Cor 1:25 ("Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful."), etc...

 

Paul was preaching the proofs of Christ from the OT. Acts 17:2-3. Thus the Scriptures the Bereans searched were to verify what Paul said. They certainly couldn't search what hadn't been written yet.

Paul says in verse 12 that we see through a glass darkly, but THEN, face to face. A man who looks at his reflection in water sees himself face to face (Proverbs 27:19), and in James 1:22-23 the word is viewed as a mirror (glass). At that time, the NT revelation was not completed so the mirror offered a partial reflection. But when the mirror is completed, then man can look in the glass and see himself as God sees him and be known even as God knows him because God has fully revealed the doctrines of which He wants the NT church to live by. But that mirror is still the same some do see it as a class darkly But i get what you are saying.  But doesn't this have to do with the believer character and not the completed or lack of completed scriptures - context is everything.  We would never look face to face with a book but to a person yes

 

Are you reading the Scriptures I'm posting?

 

22 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

Notice how looking into the glass is tied to looking into the perfect law of liberty and being a doer of the word.

Written scripture was delegated to the apostles as they were the authorities over the church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). Paul was the last apostle. 1 Cor 15:8-9. Thus apostolic authority and revelation ended with Paul, and the last apostle to die was John which closed the canon of Scripture with the book of Revelation.

 

Now there are a few reasons why "that which is perfect" is not Christ, and is not charity.  I never thought of it being Charity

 

*Christ is not a "that". This one is obvious. When Christ is referred with a proper noun, the word "perfect" would be capitalized (see 1 Tim 6:15) he is that perfect man But it doesn't say "man".

 

 

Actually you have some pretty good stuff here (good food) and other than some minor corrections of what I believe in blue bold Italics, I agree with most of what you said.

 

Are you dispensational in your study style?

Yes, I am a 7 point dispensationalist, sometimes more depending on my mood.

[ASongOfDegrees]

ASOD, I agree with this. Also I believe this passage has nothing to do with cessation of the gifts. It is about charity.

Donillo, I do believe the sign gifts have ceased. They will most likely begin again during the Tribulation. But I still think "that which is perfect" was charity.

[ASongOfDegrees]

First of all, 1 Cor 13 must be understood in the context of chapters 12 and 14, chapter 14 being specifically about the abuse of tongues and prophesying. But some background on certain gifts would be in order.

 

The last thing Christ told His church before He ascended was preach the gospel to every creature, and do so to the uttermost ends of the earth (Mark 16, Matthew 28, Acts 1:8). One problem with that: how do I go to Russia and preach if I don't know the language? Hence this is one reason why in Acts 2 you see that the manifestation of tongues was a recognizable foreign language. It was a miraculous evangelical tool used to expedite the spread of the gospel to places where the language had not been learned by witnesses.

 

Tongues were also used for a sign to confirm that the gospel had in fact been offered to the Gentiles. The saved Jews were skeptical of Gentile conversions, but when the Gentiles spoke in tongues, the Jews stated "the Gentiles have received the Holy Ghost EVEN AS WE HAVE". (Acts 10:47). The Jews were very sign oriented (1 Cor 1:22). Just as Christ ministry was confirmed by signs and wonders (Hebrews 2:4), the apostles were as well (Acts 19:12). But, as time went on, and the church became united and established, these gifts began to fade. Paul could not always heal everyone ("Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick" 2 Tim 4:20). Timothy needed to drink something other than water to cure his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23).

 

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 in fact DOES state that tongues and prophesying will cease (v8), and knowledge through prophesying that was in part. The question is, why was it "in PART"? And this is where the reference to 'that which is perfect' is clearly the Scriptures.

 

Paul uses the analogy of explaining a transitional period between his childhood and adulthood. This is a transitional period that describes the beginning of the church and transition from the law into the age of grace. And because of this transition, there is no written authority as of yet which is why they only knew in part. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 gives a picture of this fact as the "rules" had not yet been laid out until Paul addressed and gave the rules based on his apostolic authority. 

 

Paul says in verse 12 that we see through a glass darkly, but THEN, face to face. A man who looks at his reflection in water sees himself face to face (Proverbs 27:19), and in James 1:22-23 the word is viewed as a mirror (glass). At that time, the NT revelation was not completed so the mirror offered a partial reflection. But when the mirror is completed, then man can look in the glass and see himself as God sees him and be known even as God knows him because God has fully revealed the doctrines of which He wants the NT church to live by. 

 

Written scripture was delegated to the apostles as they were the authorities over the church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). Paul was the last apostle. 1 Cor 15:8-9. Thus apostolic authority and revelation ended with Paul, and the last apostle to die was John which closed the canon of Scripture with the book of Revelation.

 

Now there are a few reasons why "that which is perfect" is not Christ, and is not charity.

 

*Christ is not a "that". This one is obvious. When Christ is referred with a proper noun, the word "perfect" would be capitalized (see 1 Tim 6:15)

 

*Paul said charity NEVER faileth, so if charity is perfect now, then 'when that which is perfect SHALL come' can not be a reference to charity. Thus, the perfect thing described was something yet to come, but charity was spoken of as something that could be put on now. And again, this is being emphasized by Paul because of the abuse of the spiritual gifts and the pride of some having gifts that others didn't, and Paul is telling them, if you have charity, you won't be so egotistical, which is especially important considering these gifts are going to vanish pretty soon. It would be senseless for Paul to tell them how urgent it was to put on charity in comparison to passing gifts if those gifts were intended to linger on. The fact that these gifts would pass in contrast with Paul's admonishing them to focus on charity with such urgency shows that Paul expected them to pass soon.

 

I'll add a little bit more to this later.

Dr. James. I appreciate you lengthy and thought out response. I used to believe that the sign gifts were strictly to show the Jews that this "thing" was from God. But I'm not so sure about this now. It seems to me that the Corinthians still practice the gifts among themselves even when no Jews were around. Also, I found myself getting painted into a corner by Hyperdispensationalists who throw out of the non-prison epistles of Paul because of these sign gifts in those books. They claim that any epistle of Paul that is prior to him being thrown into prison and after the Jews final rejection of the gospel (in Acts 28) was the end of the signs therefore none of the letters Paul wrote before his time in prison apply doctrinally to the church. It get even worse than this with the Hypers. You know what I'm saying?

 

For whatever reason the early church practiced sign gifts and for whatever reason they seemed to have ended with the last of the apostles or around that time.

 

After saying all this I still think "that which is perfect" is specifically speaking of charity but I have no problem with someone applying it to the completed word of God since it's where we learn our charity from or even our resurrection since that's when we will be complete in perfect charity. Some passages of scripture can have many applications.

 

Luke 1:35- And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.