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Wow! Kudos To This Public School Principal...


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As far as spanking in the public schools....this principal obviously has the right attitude. He isn't spanking for the joy of inflicting pain. He doesn't enjoy it. And he has parental permission. Parental permission is all that he needs to be Biblical about it' date=' even though that wasn't a point in the article.[/quote']
Just to clear something up...I didn't want anyone to think that by using the word "abuse," I was talking about the attitude of the school official giving the corporal punishment, as in, they are abusing the kids. I was opining that they are abusing the purpose of spanking by using it as a punishment instead of a discipleship tool. IMO, spanking is not meant to punish, but to further one's spiritual growth within an ongoing, close, loving relationship (parent/child). Again, I understand the concept of in loco parentis. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is "wrong" for a parent to allow someone outside the family to spank their child. I'm just saying that I cannot be sure it is right, and I am not comfortable with it for that reason.
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Properly used, I have no problem with spankings in school. In days gone by, the teachers and principles tended to be locals that were known within the community. That's not always true these days. While those who ran the school once tended to hold the same values as the community, this often isn't true today.

I wouldn't give permission for a stranger to spank my child. If the teacher/principal were known to be man of charactor by me and that I could trust their judgement in such matters I would agree to such.

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Annie - I understand what you are saying, but don't agree completely. I do agree that spanking is to further spiritual growth, and is part of discipleship. But I also believe that it is punishment. There are two aspects to discipline: the disciplinary, or teaching time, and the punishment time. Both are necessary. The Bible tells us that the Lord chastens those whom He loves. Chastening is punishment...

As I said (and I know you agree with this!!), the hubby makes decisions for his own family - and if your hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking your kids but the two of you, that is certainly his right!!! And I would not advocate that just anyone could spank, either! I think only those who are in a position of authority given by the father should be - babysitter (I'm not talking the 12 year old who has the child for an hour and a half...I mean someone who provides daycare), principal or teacher who is designated for such, grandparent.

When my grandfather died, my son (who was 8 at the time) and I went to WA. My hubby couldn't go. So, he talked with my brother and asked him to administer any swats that were needed. My brother agreed. He had to spank him only once. It broke both my son's and my brother's hearts that it was necessary...and they have been extremely close ever since.
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Chastening is punishment...

What makes you define "chastening" as "punishment?" I strongly disagree that God "punishes" us for our sin. Christ took all of the punishment for our sin on Himself on the cross. Punishment means a consequence imposed as a "payment" for wrongdoing. By definition (and etymology), punishment is purely punitive. It's like paying a fine for a crime. It is not part of a discipleship-type relationship; it is a cold transaction between two parties that do not have a relationship with each other. Like: do the crime, do the time, sentence handed down, free to go when payment is fulfilled, end of story. That's punishment, not chastening. Chastening implies an ongoing relationship, negative consequences imposed for the purposes of changing the wrongdoer's heart, not just for getting him to "pay" for what he did, or understand why it was wrong, or make him want to avoid doing it in the future only because he is afraid of experiencing the punishment again. Punishment appeals to fear; chastening appeals to love.

As I said (and I know you agree with this!!), the hubby makes decisions for his own family - and if your hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking your kids but the two of you, that is certainly his right!!! And I would not advocate that just anyone could spank, either! I think only those who are in a position of authority given by the father should be - babysitter (I'm not talking the 12 year old who has the child for an hour and a half...I mean someone who provides daycare), principal or teacher who is designated for such, grandparent.

You're right; I do agree that the husband/father makes decisions for his own family. It's not that my hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking; it is that we aren't sure that spankings should (biblically) be given by anyone who is not in an ongoing discipleship relationship with our kids. We don't think it is appropriate to view spanking as a punishment. I don't want my children to think that when I spank them, they are "paying for" their wrongdoing.

I think that's how it is viewed (as punishment) in the case of a public or Christian school situation in which the child may never have even met the principal (or maybe has exchanged pleasantries with him once or twice), and is suddenly confronted with him wielding a paddle.
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Well, we obviously disagree on what punishment is. Punishment is not payment for wrongdoing - it is a consequence of wrong doing. We all reap what we sow - and God does chasten us in punishment when we, as His children, continue in sin. Is it payment? No - no one even hinted that it was!!! It is consequence.

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Well' date=' we obviously disagree on what punishment is. Punishment is not payment for wrongdoing - it is a consequence of wrong doing. We all reap what we sow - and God does chasten us in punishment when we, as His children, continue in sin. Is it payment? No - no one even hinted that it was!!! It is consequence.[/quote']

LuAnne, I'm just going by the definitions of the word punish, as listed below. Can you honestly say that this is what God does to us? What about Scripture? Is the word punishment ever used in the Bible to describe how our loving Father deals with His children? Or is it more descriptive of how He deals with unrepentant sinners?



Contrast the definitions of punishment with the definitions of chasten (below):


Chastening has a purpose other than inflicting a penalty. Its focus is on changing the heart, not merely on altering outward behavior. The type of corporal punishment imposed in schools is focused on behavior, not spiritual/moral/heart development. It (punishment) appeals to fear, not love (as chastening does).
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When someone shows me a verse from the Scriptures that gives direction to parents to allow someone other than they to carry out a spanking on their children or where God says that someone other than the parent will answer for their child's upbringing; then I will agree with it.

I have never seen that in the Scriptures, therefore to me it is against God to do such. Admittedly, I could have missed that in the Scriptures, therefore am open to correction.

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When someone shows me a verse from the Scriptures that gives direction to parents to allow someone other than they to carry out a spanking on their children or where God says that someone other than the parent will answer for their child's upbringing; then I will agree with it.

Are you saying that parents can never delegate their authority to, say, a Sunday school teacher, or babysitter, or family member, etc.? Scripture doesn't say they can. When it comes down to it, the Scripture never specifically tells mothers to spank. Is the silence of Scripture always the same thing as prohibition? If it is, then you are in disobedience every time you leave your child with anyone else. IOW, you'd have to be with your child bodily 24/7.

I have never seen that in the Scriptures, therefore to me it is against God to do such. Admittedly, I could have missed that in the Scriptures, therefore am open to correction.


My objection to the use of "corporal punishment" in schools has more to do with the purpose of spanking than with your reasoning here. Biblically, spanking is to be used for chastening, within a discipleship context, not for punishment.
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And then there's this definition:

In operant conditioning, a consequence to a behavior in which something is added to or removed from the situation to make the behavior less likely


I guess it depends on where you look for meanings of words. :Green

trc - I'll throw it back at you: is there any scripture that forbids parents from delegating authority to spank?
The father is the head of the home, and he decides who spanks his kids.
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And then there's this definition:


But we were talking about punishment vs. chastisement, not consequences (which is a much more general term than both of the others). You said that punishment is the same as chastisement, but it isn't. (I'm willing to be wrong on this; show me a definition of punishment that doesn't refer to payment/penalty, or something comparable.)

"Operant conditioning" is, I'm guessing, a psychological term, a la B.F. Skinner. It (conditioning) is focused on changing behavior, not the heart (which is given away at the end of the definition you gave). So, of course, the kind of consequences this paragraph is describing are different than the kind I employ as a parent. I'm not trying to "condition" my children; I'm trying to develop Christlikeness in them and nurture their spirituality. The consequences I use are not targeted at the behavior, but at the heart--the motivation for the behavior. The lesson I desire for my child to learn when I employ this sort of consequence is not this: "Never act in this way again," but this: "You have a heart problem. Let's identify it and confess that problem to God and ask for His help in overcoming it. You will always find forgiveness (from both God and me) when you come humbly to us in confession. If your heart is not willing to follow instruction, I will have to give these consequences again." It's all about the heart, not the behavior.

Generally speaking (outside any specific realm), a "consequence" simply means, "something that happens as a result of something else." (Didn't check the dictionary on this one, but we can all agree on this, right?) As far as our discussion goes, "consequences" can be used in a variety of ways, including to punish someone or to chasten someone. The difference is in how the consequences are reasoned, presented, and applied. In a school setting, the object is not chastening, but punishment. The focus is behavior, not spiritual development.
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Huge difference in asking someone to oversee the well being of your child and asking/trusting them to know where to draw the line in how hard to spank (hit) them' date=' etc..........[/quote']

Right, but you were talking "Scripturally," not practically. Your argument was that since the Scriptures don't "give permission," they must be prohibiting it. My point was simply that we do things all the time (in parenting) that the Scriptures do not "give permission" to do, like leaving kids with babysitters or other "authorities."
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"This is not a practice for the 21st century," says Nadine Block, executive director of the Center for Effective Discipline in Ohio. "Maybe for the 18th century. An atmosphere of fear is not going to increase learning. Maybe temporarily. But over time, it does not work."


The pathogenic response above is a virus enabler for the violence epidemic. Anyway it's making me :gross:

If you could "temporarily" decrease the aberrant behavior, say for 8 hours per day; I believe learning would have to increase permanently.

I have no simpaththy for these pstcho-babble people anyway. There methods have failed and should be put in time out, out of time.

"I was spanked as a child," says Deniece Williams, 36, who has a son at John C. "I want to go a different route."


She wasn't spanked enough...just my opinion.

The school's mental-health counselor, Heather Hatchett, is equally concerned. "I'm not crazy about it," she says. "A lot of these kids come from violent homes, and kids see this as another violent act."


Yes, a lot of children are abused and I'm sure the number goes up as society is further removed from God's authority. Children could be made to see a form of consistent, caring, corporal discipline, if there were an authority at school but, instead they get time out. Truth be known some probably sleep through the time out and reenact the violence they find at home on the streets each evening. If you get teen agers tired enough each day...they will sleep at night.
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From Webster's 1828:

PUN'ISHMENT, n. Any pain or suffering inflicted on a person for a crime or offense, by the authority to which the offender is subject, either by the constitution of God or of civil society. The punishment of the faults and offenses of children by the parent, is by virtue of the right of government with which the parent is invested by God himself. This species of punishment is chastisement or correction. The punishment of crimes against the laws is inflicted by the supreme power of the state in virtue of the right of government, vested in the prince or legislature. The right of punishment belongs only to persons clothed with authority. Pain, loss or evil willfully inflicted on another for his crimes or offenses by a private unauthorized person, is revenge rather than punishment.
Some punishments consist in exile or transportation, others in loss of liberty by imprisonment; some extend to confiscation by forfeiture of lands and goods, others induce a disability of holding offices, of being heirs and the like.
Divine punishments are doubtless designed to secure obedience to divine laws, and uphold the moral order of created intelligent beings.
The rewards and punishments of another life, which the almighty has established as the enforcements of his law, are of weight enough to determine the choice against whatever pleasure or pain this life can show.


CHASTISEMENT, n. Correction; punishment; pain inflicted for punishment and correction, either by stripes or otherwise.


From wiki:
Castigation (from the Latin castigatio), chastisement (via the French ch
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Sorry' date=' Annie, but chastisement and punishment are the same thing. Behavior is dealt with; the heart is dealt with; outer control is imposed to aid in bringing self-control and to aid in bringing the sufferer to a clear understanding of right and wrong.[/quote']
LuAnne, when I asked for a definition, I didn't expect you to pull out an almost 200-year-old dictionary! :lol: The meanings, nuances, and connotations of words change over time for sure. (The meanings of punishment and chastisement are still different, according to your Webster's, anyway. He implies that chastisement "goes further" than just general punishment in that it has a more specific purpose ("making chaste") and is the "specific species/kind" of punishment that parents use toward children. I can live with that delineation, although it doesn't agree with modern usage, in which punishment always carries the idea of a penalty.)

Definitions aside, you still haven't answered my question: Is the following a description of what our Father does to us, His children? Or does He have a greater purpose in mind? (I know you believe He has a greater purpose: the more specific "chastisement" your Webster's indicates is the proper way for a parent to disciple children.)The reason I am asking, though, is that I believe that corporal punishment, as described in the OP, does do these things (below), and does not "make chaste," as true chastisement would. The school officials in question are simply regulating behavior, not chastising/discipling. Call it what you want to, but it is not biblical chastisement. We know that the biblical purpose of spanking is chastisement (a word Scripture uses over and over again in reference to child discipline), not (just) punishment (a word that, to my knowledge, Scripture never uses in the parent/child context, but numerous times in the context of condemned sinners).

1. to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc., as a penalty for some offense, transgression, or fault: to punish a criminal.
2. to inflict a penalty for (an offense, fault, etc.): to punish theft.
3. to handle severely or roughly, as in a fight.
4. to put to painful exertion, as a horse in racing.
5. Informal. to make a heavy inroad on; deplete: to punish a quart of whiskey.

Hey, going back to definitions, I still contend that, according to how the words are used in Scripture, there is a marked difference between punishment and chastisement. It would actually be pretty enlightening, IMO, if someone compared all of the usages in Scripture of all forms of the term punishment and all forms of the word chastisement. I'm pretty certain that the study would reveal a pattern of punishment being used in reference to what happens to the wicked/lost, and chastisement being used as a description of what happens in a parent/child relationship (including our Father's relationship with His children). It would be interesting to find out...
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