Paul Chappell - 12 Myths Of Pastoral Leadership

[prophet1]

Prophet1 you asked ''what is a Pastor''

Eph 4:11 And he gave some , apostles and some prophets, and some Pastors and teachers.
This verse identifies some of the spiritual gifts given to the church. these are God given abilities enabling some Christians to function as apostles ,some as prophets,some as evangelist, and others in the role of pastor- teachers. the Greek construction for the last mention should be rendered pastors-teachers. this indicates that a pastor -teacher has a dual function. he pastors in overseeing his parishioners' spiritual lives and he teaches by instructing them in the word.

The pastor who shepherds today's Church also fulfills the New Testament role as overseer and is responsible to God for the spiritual welfare of the Church, when Christ returns he will judge and reward these pastors according to their faithfulness in leading the Church to accomplish Gods will,

There are different titles for the New Testament pastor, the title bishop emphasizes the administrative function of the office.
the word pastor emphasizes the responsibility of caring for the Church ,as a shepherd cares for his sheep .the word preacher emphasizes the ministry of publicly proclaiming Gods word. the title teacher emphasizes that the pastor should be apt to teach.
The pastor is also called a servant , reminding him that he is to minister to others, and he is a steward, managing the property of others ( the Church of God).
Timothy and Titus were pastors of Churches started by Paul, who wrote Pastoral Epistles to them and if we study these epistles we will have a better understanding of the word of God concerning His Pastors, deacons and elders of the New Testament Church today.

There is a lot more scripture in reference to the pastor but I'll stop here because I believe I've covered enough to answer your question.

Christians should be supportive of their pastors ,as he attempts to fulfill his biblical ministry, God Bless my friend

What church was Timothy the pastor of?

Where are we instructed to have only one pastor , bishop, or elder in a church?

Which church in Acts, or the Epistles, had a single leader?

What does presbytery mean, since we're talking about Timothy?

Give me one verse, that indicates any of this, not a verse that has the word :pastors in it, followed by a bucket of men's words.

By the way...here's Tim's church:
Act 20:17, 28
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Apparently, all of the elders were flock-feeders, or pastors, charged by God, in Acts 20, to feed the flock over which God had made THEM overseers.

When are you gonna quit lying about what the Bible says?

Anishinaabe

[DaveW]

Well that is unkind.

You have no right to call others a liar over a difference of opinion about an indistinct concept.

Whilst I am not interested in playing your game, why don't you give a verse - a single verse - that states clearly that a single man in leadership is against God's will.

And then maybe you can apologise to Bro Smith for calling him a liar......

[prophet1]

Well that is unkind. You have no right to call others a liar over a difference of opinion about an indistinct concept. Whilst I am not interested in playing your game, why don't you give a verse - a single verse - that states clearly that a single man in leadership is against God's will. And then maybe you can apologise to Bro Smith for calling him a liar......

I addressed his lie in my post. And I have every right to call a lie a lie. You are a liar, as well, as am I, no? Rom 3:4 4 God forbid:yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Anishinaabe

[EKSmith]

My friend Gods word does not lie and neither do I . you ask me a question and I answered it and not of myself but by the Holly Spirit that reveals the truth unto those whom seek it. when I study Gods word it is always with prayer. I know other way to answer the question than to speak to you the truth God has given unto me. this may be your thread you started but it gives you no right to attack someone that  you have asked a question of and they answer you. you can use the scriptures for correction if you feel I'm wrong but you have not shown one verse of scripture of correction to my answer. other then call me a liar in which I had no reason to lie to you, I will not debate with with you because I clearly see the strife you intend to cause and you will not lead me into sin. I forgive you for calling me a liar and I will pray for you my friend, may we fellowship using brotherly love toward one another.   

[HappyChristian]

prophet, that's enough.  You do not have the right to call them liars, because they are not lying. They are looking at it differently from you, and that is allowable because God does not state that there must be a certain number of pastors, elders, bishops or whatever term one chooses to use.  If you want to discuss it, fine.  But stop the name calling.  And, FWIW - that scripture you quoted would just as likely point to you as being a liar, since it says "every man..."  Just stop the name calling. 

[Ukulelemike]

Show me a reference that gives a mandate to annoint a single leader of a church.
There isnt one.

There are several gifts mentioned in those verses, no system of leadership.
The elders rule is mentioned 5 times.

Ready, set, go.

Anishinaabe

Show me where it says not to. We have excellent examples in scripture of both multiples leadership and single leadership, though the single usually has some leadership under them.

 

The way you speak, you seem that you are accusing us of insisting that there is ONE leader and the rest, just, well, laity, but that's not what is being said here-most of us, I assume, agree that there should be multiple layers of leadership, not just "King Pastor".

[prophet1]

My friend Gods word does not lie and neither do I . you ask me a question and I answered it and not of myself but by the Holly Spirit that reveals the truth unto those whom seek it. when I study Gods word it is always with prayer. I know other way to answer the question than to speak to you the truth God has given unto me. this may be your thread you started but it gives you no right to attack someone that you have asked a question of and they answer you. you can use the scriptures for correction if you feel I'm wrong but you have not shown one verse of scripture of correction to my answer. other then call me a liar in which I had no reason to lie to you, I will not debate with with you because I clearly see the strife you intend to cause and you will not lead me into sin. I forgive you for calling me a liar and I will pray for you my friend, may we fellowship using brotherly love toward one another.

You must love Christmas!

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

prophet, that's enough. You do not have the right to call them liars, because they are not lying. They are looking at it differently from you, and that is allowable because God does not state that there must be a certain number of pastors, elders, bishops or whatever term one chooses to use. If you want to discuss it, fine. But stop the name calling. And, FWIW - that scripture you quoted would just as likely point to you as being a liar, since it says "every man..." Just stop the name calling.

Read much? I included myself in the liars list.

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

My friend Gods word does not lie and neither do I . you ask me a question and I answered it and not of myself but by the Holly Spirit that reveals the truth unto those whom seek it. when I study Gods word it is always with prayer. I know other way to answer the question than to speak to you the truth God has given unto me. this may be your thread you started but it gives you no right to attack someone that you have asked a question of and they answer you. you can use the scriptures for correction if you feel I'm wrong but you have not shown one verse of scripture of correction to my answer. other then call me a liar in which I had no reason to lie to you, I will not debate with with you because I clearly see the strife you intend to cause and you will not lead me into sin. I forgive you for calling me a liar and I will pray for you my friend, may we fellowship using brotherly love toward one another.

You inserted opinion and then called it Scripture. Now, do you want to discuss points?

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

It came from the devil. Seriously, though. You would not believe the number of people who asked me if we have it at Burger King.

Mike, I believe that you are sincere, and that you are trying to follow God's Word. It is painful to watch you try to defend an error that has been in our churches a long time. So lets start at the beginning. If the Bible doesnt give us an example of a singular pastor (the word doesnt even appear in the NT in the singular) of a church, being the overseer of the church, but does give us examples of múltiple overseers of NT churches, then isnt it fair to say that we have no right to teach that a single man is ever the lone overseer of a church? Can we start there, and say we have erred? Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

Prophet1 you asked ''what is a Pastor''

Eph 4:11 And he gave some , apostles and some prophets, and some Pastors and teachers.
This verse identifies some of the spiritual gifts given to the church. these are God given abilities enabling some Christians to function as apostles ,some as prophets,some as evangelist, and others in the role of pastor- teachers. the Greek construction for the last mention should be rendered pastors-teachers. this indicates that a pastor -teacher has a dual function. he pastors in overseeing his parishioners' spiritual lives and he teaches by instructing them in the word.

The pastor who shepherds today's Church also fulfills the New Testament role as overseer and is responsible to God for the spiritual welfare of the Church, when Christ returns he will judge and reward these pastors according to their faithfulness in leading the Church to accomplish Gods will,

There are different titles for the New Testament pastor, the title bishop emphasizes the administrative function of the office.
the word pastor emphasizes the responsibility of caring for the Church ,as a shepherd cares for his sheep .the word preacher emphasizes the ministry of publicly proclaiming Gods word. the title teacher emphasizes that the pastor should be apt to teach.
The pastor is also called a servant , reminding him that he is to minister to others, and he is a steward, managing the property of others ( the Church of God).
Timothy and Titus were pastors of Churches started by Paul, who wrote Pastoral Epistles to them and if we study these epistles we will have a better understanding of the word of God concerning His Pastors, deacons and elders of the New Testament Church today.

There is a lot more scripture in reference to the pastor but I'll stop here because I believe I've covered enough to answer your question.

Christians should be supportive of their pastors ,as he attempts to fulfill his biblical ministry, God Bless my friend

Lie #1:
Eph 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

"pastors and teachers" is not a single person, these are both plural words. If you have to use Greek to find something in an English Bible, maybe you arent a good student.

In English, these to words are made equal by punctuation. The list is punctuated by semicolons, until we come to "pastors and teachers".
This is a set, and the sum of everything within that set is equal to the other sets.

This verse actually establishes the plurality of the pastors and teachers roles.

[Ukulelemike]

Lie #1:
Eph 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

"pastors and teachers" is not a single person, these are both plural words. If you have to use Greek to find something in an English Bible, maybe you arent a good student.

In English, these to words are made equal by punctuation. The list is punctuated by semicolons, until we come to "pastors and teachers".
This is a set, and the sum of everything within that set is equal to the other sets.

This verse actually establishes the plurality of the pastors and teachers roles.

You quote Eph 4:11 & 12 quite a bit-it says, "he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets...etc" Who are the "some" Paul is speaking of?

 

Clearly, its not speaking of 'some' churches but 'some' people. Some people are given the gift of an apostle, some people are prophets, some are evangelists, etc. This is not just a list of those working within a specific church, or that some churches are given prophets and pastors and preachers. They are plural because it speaks of gifts given to people, plural. let's see it in context.

 

Eph 4:7-12

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

These are not speaking at all about how many of which will be in a church-just that these are various gifts given to men for the work of God.

 

By the way, you asked earlier which church Timothy was pastor of-answer, he wasn't a pastor, he was an evangelist, like Paul was, (though he was also an apostle). Like a missionary today, not like evangelists today, which would probably qualify as a preacher in the Bible, not being a pastor, with no flock to lead.

 

You must look at the words used. An Apostle is one sent forth on orders; a prophet is one who proclaims the revealed word of God;  an evangelist is a bringer forth of good tidings, one who declares the gospel; a pastor is a shepherd, one who leads a flock, and a teacher is, well, a teacher. Only one really implies a place of leadership, and that's pastor.

[HappyChristian]

Read much? I included myself in the liars list.

Anishinaabe

Rude much? Yes.you are. Very.

[prophet1]

Rude much? Yes.you are. Very.

You answered my post without reading it, apparently, and I'm rude?

You thought to rebuke me, for some perceived attitude, not realizing that I had addressed that, already.

Now, in my estimation, when someone says that the Bible says"
______", and it does not, this is equal to lying.

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

You quote Eph 4:11 & 12 quite a bit-it says, "he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets...etc" Who are the "some" Paul is speaking of?

Clearly, its not speaking of 'some' churches but 'some' people. Some people are given the gift of an apostle, some people are prophets, some are evangelists, etc. This is not just a list of those working within a specific church, or that some churches are given prophets and pastors and preachers. They are plural because it speaks of gifts given to people, plural. let's see it in context.

Eph 4:7-12
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

These are not speaking at all about how many of which will be in a church-just that these are various gifts given to men for the work of God.

By the way, you asked earlier which church Timothy was pastor of-answer, he wasn't a pastor, he was an evangelist, like Paul was, (though he was also an apostle). Like a missionary today, not like evangelists today, which would probably qualify as a preacher in the Bible, not being a pastor, with no flock to lead.

You must look at the words used. An Apostle is one sent forth on orders; a prophet is one who proclaims the revealed word of God; an evangelist is a bringer forth of good tidings, one who declares the gospel; a pastor is a shepherd, one who leads a flock, and a teacher is, well, a teacher. Only one really implies a place of leadership, and that's pastor.

I asked the question about Timothy in answer to a post claiming that he was a pastor.



Anishinaabe