How Old Is The Earth

[TheSword]

I am not sure but are not a cherub and a cherubims two different Creatures?

 

 

Cherubim(s) is just the plural of cherub. Hebrew plural is usually expressed by the addition of -im to the end of words and sometimes those words are transliterated into the other languages, as is often the case with proper names and words that get adopted into new languages. Cherub/cherubim is one of those words that got transliterated into English. Every time you see "cherub" in the OT it is singular and everytime you see "cherubims" it is plural. Exodus 37:8 provides a good example of the usage:

 

"One cherub on the end on this side, and another cherub on the other end on that side: out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims on the two ends thereof."

[AVBibleBeliever]

 

Cherubim(s) is just the plural of cherub. Hebrew plural is usually expressed by the addition of -im to the end of words and sometimes those words are transliterated into the other languages, as is often the case with proper names and words that get adopted into new languages. Cherub/cherubim is one of those words that got transliterated into English. Every time you see "cherub" in the OT it is singular and everytime you see "cherubims" it is plural. Exodus 37:8 provides a good example of the usage:

 

"One cherub on the end on this side, and another cherub on the other end on that side: out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims on the two ends thereof."

 

So are you saying that the anointed cherub had four faces?

[TheSword]

So are you saying that the anointed cherub had four faces?

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but all I said was that cherubim is the plural of cherub. If you have something that says all cherubim have 4 faces then sure.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but all I said was that cherubim is the plural of cherub. If you have something that says all cherubim have 4 faces then sure.

If you are correct each of the four cherub that make up the cherubims then would have four faces.

 

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.   8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.   9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.   10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.   11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

 

 EZK 10 1¶ Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
 3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.
 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
 6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
 7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.
 8 ¶ And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.
 9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.
 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went.
 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.
 13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel.
 14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
 15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
 16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

 

So if by your explanation then Satan would have four faces also.

 

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

-ims behind words in the five books of the law also gave an indication they were giants

 De 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
 De 2:20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;  you will notice that an "s" in English indicates plural and that ims behind a word is not always a plural.  and even the Cherubims are singular in these uses.  the word cherubim is not used in scriptures so it would seem it reflects both singular and plural.  Sort of like Elohim can be used singularly or pluraly

 

Besides the word for giants in Gen 6 is not Nephilim  It is Nephiyl
 

Edited February 21, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[TheSword]

If you are correct each of the four cherub that make up the cherubims then would have four faces.

 

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.   8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.   9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.   10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.   11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

 

 EZK 10 1¶ Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
 3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.
 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
 6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
 7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.
 8 ¶ And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.
 9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.
 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went.
 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.
 13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel.
 14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
 15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
 16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

 

So if by your explanation then Satan would have four faces also.

 

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

Ok, sure. I don't see a problem with that.

[swathdiver]

Is this to me?

Whilst I don't see the relevance, it appears that he had a big bed (about 14' long).

He was a tall man among a kingdom of tall men.

 

Yes you.  The other one is Chief Dave!  

 

Well, I thought you said you didn't believe in giants???

[DaveW]

Yes you. The other one is Chief Dave!

Well, I thought you said you didn't believe in giants???

Nah - of course I do.
The bible not only uses the word but also describes certain men as such.

However there is no indication that giants are anything other than tall men, and those in general appear to be around 9' tall when figures are suggested - like Goliath.
Og, judging by the size of his bed may have been a bit taller - say 10 or 11'.

But there is no suggestion in the bible that he was anything other than a man.

There are tribes in Africa for instance where the average height of the people is well over 6' - all of the adults grow to well above the normal average - but they are normal men.

[DaveW]

It also has the meaning or "cast out ones" or "cast down ones". In Genesis six and Numbers 13 it is not Nephilim but Nephiyl

In Duet and Joshua it is Rapha

There is no textual reason to suggest that either is anything other than a large man.
Even if it is "cast out ones" that does not inherently mean fallen angels.

Your argument is full of assumption and you are clutching at straws to support an argument that is unnecessary.

There is no need for it biblically and there is no possibility of it genetically.

[candlelight]

There is no textual reason to suggest that either is anything other than a large man.
Even if it is "cast out ones" that does not inherently mean fallen angels.

Your argument is full of assumption and you are clutching at straws to support an argument that is unnecessary.

There is no need for it biblically and there is no possibility of it genetically.

 I'm not saying that AVBB is taking information from Apocrypha, however, whenever I hear words like Nephilim it automatically makes me think that people are looking at the Book of Enoch.  There are only 66 Books in the Bible.  I don't know why some people go to sources that God didn't put in the Bible, and make assumptions on things.  Last I looked, the Book of Enoch is not in the KJV. 

[Salyan]

 I'm not saying that AVBB is taking information from Apocrypha, however, whenever I hear words like Nephilim it automatically makes me think that people are looking at the Book of Enoch.  There are only 66 Books in the Bible.  I don't know why some people go to sources that God didn't put in the Bible, and make assumptions on things.  Last I looked, the Book of Enoch is not in the KJV. 

Nephilim is a transliteration, and is found in the Masoretic text in Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33.

[candlelight]

Nephilim is a transliteration, and is found in the Masoretic text in Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33.

Thanks for clarifying Salyan.  I don't have a copy of the Masoretic text, although I do have a Torah/Tanach.

I spoke in another thread about how charismatics are on a Facebook site called F.A.R. It stands stands for Fallen Alien Resistance.  I have not studied Nephilim as it is not in the KJV.

I believe as others on this thread do, that giants refers to very big men. 

[DaveW]

Just had a look at the strongs definitions of the root word upon which the word translated Giants in Gen 6 and Num 13 is based (follow me so far?) And I found it interesting.

Aside from the fact that Numbers 13:32 actually mentions their great stature before then calling them giants (!) The actual word used has a fairly tight meaning according to strongs that restricts its use pretty much to the word Giants, and the root word (finally) has a broad meaning of "to fall" which amongst the options includes "to cause to fall".
This could apply either to the subject directly or to the ability of the subject - on other words, it could equally apply in a way that says these giants were able to cause others to fall, as in battle.
That means that they would be who were mighty in battle, if that meaning of the root word were applied.

But in no instance does strongs suggest that the word, or even its root word, inherently carry any meaning of supernatural origin or source.

According to the Greek meanings, the words translated as giants in Genesis 6 and Numbers 13 were large men, with a possible implication of them being fighting men.

I am constantly amazed that the 70+ men who were language experts that were involved in translating the KJV appear to use the English words that mean what the Greek definitions of those words mean.

[Salyan]

  I have not studied Nephilim as it is not in the KJV.

That's what I was saying, candlelight. Nephilim is in the KJV - in the original language. You can find it in your Strong's Concordance.

[candlelight]

That's what I was saying, candlelight. Nephilim is in the KJV - in the original language. You can find it in your Strong's Concordance.

 

Oh, okay.  I looked at those scriptures and didn't find the actual word, "nephilim."  I will look it up in my Strong's Concordance.  Thank you.

[candlelight]

I found it in Strongs.  It says, "See GIANTS."