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History - the Frame of Reference Part 4a. – Jesus, The Christ


Now that we have so many from history, let us now consider the center of all of which these people and events have surrounded.




Tacitus [Quick Source]:

Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire. The surviving portions of his two major works—the Annals and the Histories—examine the reigns of the Roman Emperors Tiberius, Claudius, Nero and those who reigned in the Year of the Four Emperors. These two works span the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Augustus in AD 14 to (presumably) the death of emperor Domitian in AD 96. … Tacitus is considered to be one of the greatest Roman historians.[1][2] He lived in what has been called the Silver Age of Latin literature, and as well as the brevity and compactness of his Latin prose, he is known for his penetrating insights into the psychology of power politics. … ” [Wikipedia; Tacitus] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus



Quick Source:


In his Annals, in book 15, chapter 44, written c. 116 AD, there is a passage which refers to Christ, to Pontius Pilate, and to a mass execution of the Christians after a six-day fire that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD by Nero.[30] … This narration has long attracted scholarly interest because it is a rare non-Christian reference to the origin of Christianity, the execution of Christ described in the Canonical gospels, and the persecution of Christians in 1st-century Rome. Almost all scholars consider these references to the Christians to be authentic.[32][33]” [Wikipedia; Tacitus; subsection “Tacitus on Christ”] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus#Tacitus_on_Christ


Tacitus; Annals [English]:


“Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.” [Cornelius Tacitus; Annals [Ab excessu divi Augusti (Annals)]; Book 15; Chapter 44 English] - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...201999.02.0078


Tacitus; Annals [Latin]:


“44. Et haec quidem humanis consiliis providebantur. mox petita [a] dis piacula aditique Sibyllae libri, ex quibus supplicatum Volcano et Cereri Proserpinaeque, ac propitiata Iuno per matronas, primum in Capitolio, deinde apud proximum mare, unde hausta aqua templum et simulacrum deae perspersum est; et sellisternia ac pervigilia celebravere feminae, quibus mariti erant. Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt. et pereuntibus addita ludibria, ut ferarum tergis contecti laniatu canum interirent aut crucibus adfixi [aut flammandi atque], ubi defecisset dies, in usu[m] nocturni luminis urerentur. hortos suos ei spectaculo Nero obtulerat, et circense ludicrum edebat, habitu aurigae permixtus plebi vel curriculo insistens. unde quamquam adversus sontes et novissima exempla meritos miseratio oriebatur, tamquam non utilitate publica, sed in saevitiam unius absumerentur.[Cornelius Tacitus; Annals [Ab excessu divi Augusti (Annals)]] Book 15; Chapter 44 Latin] - http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a15040.htm#a_15_044



Annals Book 15; Chapter 44 scan [the second Medicean manuscript] [see line 6, 2nd word [chrestianos] and line 7 1st word [christus]] - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/1/1d/MII.png



Thus from this Secular Historical source we have:

[1.] Christians” were being persecuted and tortured by Nero, even nailed to crosses”, of which even arose a feeling of compassion” after a time from the citizens of Rome (Matthew 10:18; Mark 13:9 *a).

[2.] Christ”, was the name for which they [Christians] are so named (Acts 11:26, 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16 *.

[3.] This Christ suffered the extreme penalty” [crucifixion] (Matthew 27:26; Mark 15:15; Luke 24:20; John 19:16; 1 Corinthians 2:8; etc *c).

[4.] This Christ died at the hands” of Pontius Pilate” (John 19:15 *d).

[5.] This Christ was put to death during the reign of Tiberius” Caesar (Luke 3:1-2 *e).

[6.] These Christians, were said to be following a superstition” (Acts 25:19 *f) [religious belief] by the Romans.

[7.] These Christians had to first bechecked” in Judaea, being according to the Romans, the first source of the evil” (Matthew 2:1; Acts 1:8, 8:1; etc. *g).

[8.] These Christians were then also found to spring up even in Rome” itself, after it was found originating from Judaea (Acts 19:21, 23:11; Romans 1:7,15; etc. *h).


Prophecy foretold these things:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27



... but more upon those exact and specific points later, for the counting of the time began in 457 BC, from the decree given in the 7th Year of Artaxerxes I [Longimanus] in Ezra 7.

According to scripture [isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel 2,7-12, Revelation, etc], after the overturning of the Four major empires, the Kingdoms of Babylonia to Medo-Persia, of Medo-Persia to Greece, and of Greece to Rome, we see it even foretold in Ezekiel:

I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no [more], until he come whose right it is; and I will give it [him]. Ezekiel 21:27


We may come back to these later...

According to secular history, Christ [Jesus] lived, in the very era in which scripture declares he did and so died in the time and manner by which they give.

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History - the Frame of Reference Part 4b. – Jesus, The Christ


Suetonius [Quick Source]:

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, commonly known as Suetonius (ca. 69/75 – after 130), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order in the early Imperial era.

His most important surviving work is a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. He recorded the earliest accounts of Julius Caesar's epileptic seizures. Other works by Suetonius concern the daily life of Rome, politics, oratory, and the lives of famous writers, including poets, historians, and grammarians. A few of these books have partially survived, but many have been lost. …

… In CE 64, a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Suetonius cast blame on the Emperor Nero himself as the arsonist,[5] claiming he played the lyre and sang the Sack of Ilium during the fires. Tacitus says that Nero attempted to shift the blame to the Chrestiani, usually taken to mean "Christians", setting off the earliest documented Imperial persecution of what was regarded by the Romans at the time as still a Jewish sect and as a superstitio ("superstition," or illegitimate form of religious belief).[6] While Suetonius makes no connection to the Christians in his account of the Great Fire, he mentions Chrestus[7] elsewhere as an example of Nero's harshness, saying that punishments were inflicted on them.[8] In his Life of Claudius, Suetonius says that Jews instigated by Chrestus were expelled from the city for causing disturbances.[9] Suetonius' mentions of Chrestus and Christiani, taken with that of Tacitus, is an important piece of evidence in scholarly discussions of the historicity of Jesus.[10]” [Wikipedia; Seutonius] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seutonius



Suetonius, The Lives Of The Caesars, Life Of Claudius [English]:

“25 He rearranged the military career of the knights, assigning a division of cavalry after a cohort, and next the tribunate of a legion. He also instituted a series of military positions and a kind of fictitious service, which is called "supernumerary" and could be performed in absentia and in name only. He even had the Fathers pass a decree forbidding soldiers to enter the houses of senators to pay their respects. He confiscated p51the property of those freedmen who passed as Roman knights, and reduced to slavery again such as were ungrateful and a cause of complaint to their patrons, declaring to their advocates that he would not entertain a suit against their own freedmen.71 2 When certain men were exposing their sick and worn out slaves on the Island of Aesculapius72 because of the trouble of treating them, Claudius decreed that all such slaves were free, and that if they recovered, they should not return to the control of their master; but if anyone preferred to kill such a slave rather than to abandon him, he was liable to the charge of murder. He provided by an edict that travellers should not pass through the towns of Italy except on foot, or in a chair or litter. He stationed a cohort at Puteoli and one at Ostia, to guard against the danger of fires.

3 He forbade men of foreign birth to use the Roman names so far as those of the clans73 were concerned. Those who usurped the privileges of Roman citizenship he executed in the Esquiline field.74 He restored to the senate the provinces of Achaia and Macedonia, which Tiberius had taken into his own charge. He deprived the Lycians of their independence because of deadly intestine feuds, and restored theirs to the Rhodians, since they had given up their former faults. He allowed the people of Ilium perpetual exemption from tribute, on the ground that they were the founders of the Roman race, reading an ancient letter of the senate and people of p53Rome written in Greek to king Seleucus, in which they promised him their friendship and alliance only on condition that he should keep their kinsfolk of Ilium free from every burden. 4 Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus,75 he expelled them from Rome. He allowed the envoys of the Germans to sit in the orchestra, led by their naïve self-confidence; for when they had been taken to the seats occupied by the common people and saw the Parthian and Armenian envoys sitting with the senate, they moved of their own accord to the same part of the theatre, protesting that their merits and rank were no whit inferior. 5 He utterly abolished the cruel and inhuman religion of the Druids among the Gauls, which under Augustus had merely been prohibited to Roman citizens; on the other hand he even attempted to transfer the Eleusinian rites from Attica to Rome, and had the temple of Venus Erycina in Sicily, which had fallen to ruin through age, restored at the expense of the treasury of the Roman people. He struck his treaties with foreign princes in the Forum, sacrificing a pig76 and reciting the ancient formula of the fetial priests.77 But these and other acts, and in fact almost the whole conduct of his reign, were dictated not so much by his own judgment as that of his wives and freedmen, since he nearly always acted in accordance with their interests and desires.” [Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus; The Lives Of The Caesars; Life of Claudius [De Vita Claudii]; Section 25.4 English] - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Claudius*.html



Suetonius, The Lives Of The Caesars, Life Of Claudius [Latin]:


“25 Equestris militias ita ordinavit, ut post cohortem alam, post alam tribunatum legionis daret; stipendiaque instituit et imaginariae militiae genus, quod vocatur "supra numerum," quo absentes et titulo tenus fungerentur. Milites domus senatorias salutandi causa ingredi etiam patrum decreto prohibuit. Libertinos, qui se pro equitibus R. p50 agerent, publicavit, ingratos et de quibus patroni quererentur revocavit in servitutem advocatisque eorum negavit se adversus libertos ipsorum ius dicturum. 2 Cum quidam aegra et adfecta mancipia in insulam Aesculapi taedio medendi exponerent, omnes qui exponerentur liberos esse sanxit, nec redire in dicionem domini, si convaluissent; quod si quis necare quem mallet quam exponere, caedis crimine teneri. Viatores ne per Italiae oppida nisi aut pedibus aut sella aut lectica transirent, monuit edicto. Puteolis et Ostiae singulas cohortes ad arcendos incendiorum casus collocavit.

3 Peregrinae condicionis homines vetuit usurpare Romana nomina dum taxat gentilicia. Civitatem R. usurpantes in campo Esquilino37 securi percussit. Provincias Achaiam et Macedoniam, quas Tiberius ad curam suam transtulerat, senatui reddidit. Luciis ob exitiabiles inter se discordias libertatem ademit, Rhodiis ob paenitentiam veterum delictorum reddidit. Iliensibus quasi Romanae gentis auctoribus tributa in perpetuum remisit recitata vetere epistula Graeca p52senatus populique R. Seleuco regi amicitiam et societatem ita demum pollicentis, si consanguineos suos Ilienses ab omni onere immunes praestitisset. 4 Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantisº Roma expulit. Germanorum legatis in orchestra sedere permisit, simplicitate eorum et fiducia commotus, quod in popularia deducti, cum animadvertissent Parthos et Armenios sedentis in senatu, ad eadem loca sponte transierant, nihilo deteriorem virtutem aut condicionem suam praedicantes. 5 Druidarum38 religionem apud Gallios dirae immanitatis et tantum civibus sub Augusto interdictam penitus abolevit; contra sacra Eleusinia etiam transferre ex Attica Romam conatus est, templumque in Sicilia Veneris Erycinae vetustate conlapsum ut ex aerario pop. R. reficeretur, auctor fuit. Cum regibus foedus in Foro icit39 porca caesa ac vetere fetialium praefatione adhibita. Sed et haec et cetera totumque adeo ex parte magna principatum non tam suo quam uxorum libertorumque arbitrio administravit, talis ubique plerumque, qualem esse eum aut expediret illis aut liberet.” [Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus; The Lives Of The Caesars; Life of Claudius [De Vita Claudii]; Section 25.4 Latin] - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Claudius*.html#25


The Lives Of The Caesars; Life Of Claudius [De Vita Claudii]; Liber V [book 5]; Divus Claudius; page 94, Lines 8-9; “4 Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantisº Roma expulit.”] - http://ia600406.us.archive.org/27/items/cu31924064186822/cu31924064186822.pdf



Suetonius, The Lives Of The Caesars, Life Of Nero [English]:

“16 He devised a new form for the buildings of the city and in front of the houses and apartments he erected porches, from the flat roofs of which fires could be fought;44 and these he put up at his own cost. He had also planned to extend the walls as far as Ostia and to bring the sea from there to Rome by a canal.

2 During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale.45 Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.46” [Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus; The Lives Of The Caesars; Life of Nero [De Vita Neronis] Section 16.2 English] - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Nero*.html


Suetonius, The Lives Of The Caesars, Life Of Nero [Latin]:


“16 Formam aedificiorum urbis novam excogitavit et ut ante insulas ac domos porticus essent, de quarum13 solariis incendia arcerentur; easque sumptu suo exstruxit. Destinarat etiam Ostia tenus moenia promovere atque inde fossa mare veteri urbi inducere.

2 Multa sub eo et animadversa severe et coercita nec minus instituta: adhibitus sumptibus modus; publicae cenae ad sportulas redactae; interdictum ne quid in popinis cocti praeter legumina aut holera veniret, cum antea nullum non obsonii genus proponeretur; afflicti suppliciis Christiani, genus hominum superstitionis novae ac maleficae; vetiti quadrigariorum lusus, quibus inveterata licentia passim vagantibus fallere ac furari per iocum ius erat; pantomimorum factiones cum ipsis simul relegatae.” [Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus; The Lives Of The Caesars; Life of Nero [De Vita Neronis] Section 16.2 Latin] - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Nero*.html#16



The Lives Of The Caesars; Life Of Nero [De Vita Neronis]; Liber VI [book 6]; Nero; page 115, Lines 6-7; “afflicti suppliciis Christiani, genus hominum superstitionis novae ac maleficae;”] - http://ia600406.us.archive.org/27/items/cu31924064186822/cu31924064186822.pdf


Thus, again, from this Secular Historical source we have:

[1.]Jews” ['Christians'; 'seen' as a 'sect' "spoken against" thereof [Acts 24:5, 28:22 *a]] were constantly” causing disturbances” in Rome”.

[2.] These disturbances, according to the Romans, were at the instigation” of Chrestus” [Christ] [Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15,20; Luke 24:44-49; Acts 1:8 *b].

[3.] These Jews” were then expelled” from Rome” [Acts 18:2 *c] by Claudius Caesar's command.

[4.] The open use of the designation Christians” [Acts 11:26, 26:28 *d] in Rome is now noted in the reign of Nero Caesar.

[5.] Punishment was inflicted upon the Christians” by the Romans [1 Peter 4:16 *e].

[6.] These Christians” are called a class of men” given to a new … superstition” [religion] [Acts 17:18-34; Romans 1:15 *f].

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History - the Frame of Reference Part 4c. – Jesus, The Christ


Pliny The Younger [Quick Source]:

Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 AD – ca. 112 AD), better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. Pliny's uncle, Pliny the Elder, helped raise and educate him. They were both witnesses to the eruption of Vesuvius on 24 August 79 AD.

Pliny is known for his hundreds of surviving letters, which are an invaluable historical source for the time period.
Many are addressed to reigning emperors or to notables such as the historian, Tacitus. Pliny himself was a notable figure, serving as an imperial magistrate under Trajan (reigned AD 98–117).[1] Pliny was considered an honest and moderate man, consistent in his pursuit of suspected Christian members according to Roman law, and rose through a series of Imperial civil and military offices, the cursus honorum (see below). He was a friend of the historian Tacitus and employed the biographer Suetonius in his staff. ...” [Wikipedia; Pliny The Younger] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_younger



Pliny The Younger [English] [read all, no highlighting necessary]:

“C. Pliny to Emperor Trajan

It is customary for me, sir, to refer to you in all matters wherein I have a doubt. Who truly is better able to rule my hesitancy, or to instruct my ignorance? I was never present at examinations of Christians, therefore I do not know what is customarily punished, nor to what extent, nor how far to take the investigation. I was quite undecided; should there be any consideration given to age; are those who are however delicate no different from the stronger? Should penitence obtain pardon; or, as has been the case particularly with Christians, to desist makes no difference? Should the name itself be punished (even if crimes are absent), or the crimes that go with the name?

Meanwhile, this is the method I have followed with those who were brought before me as Christians. I asked them directly if they were Christians. The ones who answered affirmatively I questioned again with a warning, and yet a third time: those who persisted I ordered led [away]. For I have no doubt, whatever else they confessed to, certainly [this] pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy ought to be punished. There were others alike of madness, whom I noted down to be sent to the City, because they were Roman citizens. Soon in consequence of this policy itself, as it was made standard, many kinds of criminal charges occurred and spread themselves abroad. A pamphlet was published anonymously, containing the names of many.

Those who denied that they were or ever had been Christians, when they swore before me, called on the gods and offered incense and wine to your image (which I had ordered brought in for this [purpose], along with images of the gods), and also cursed Christ (which, it is said, it is impossible to force those who are real Christians to do) I thought worthy to be acquitted. Others named by an informer, said they had been Christians, but now denied [it]; certainly they had been, but had lapsed, some three years ago, some more; and more than one [lit. not nobody] over twenty years ago. These all worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ.

They stated that the sum of their guilt or error amounted to this, that they used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god, and that they took an oath not to involve themselves in villainy, but rather to commit no theft, no fraud, no adultery; not to break faith, nor to deny money placed with them in trust. Once these things were done, it was their custom to part and return later to eat a meal together, innocently, although they stopped this after my edict, in which I, following your mandate, forbade all secret societies.

All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition.

Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you. For it appears to me a proper matter for counsel, most greatly on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger, and shall be [in future]. And not only the cities; the contagion of this superstition is spread throughout the villages and the countryside; but it appears to me possible to stop it and put it right. Certainly the temples which were once deserted are beginning to be crowded, and the long interrupted sacred rites are being revived, while food from the sacrifices is selling, for which up to now a buyer was hardly to be found. From which it may easily be supposed, that what disturbs men can be mended, if a place is allowed for repentance.” [Pliny The Younger; Epistulae, Volume X, Number 96 [English]] - http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html



Pliny The Younger [Latin]:


“C. Plinius Traiano Imperatori

Sollemne est mihi, domine, omnia, de quibus dubito, ad te referre. Quis enim potest melius vel cunctationem meum regere vel ignorantiam instruere? Cognitionibus de Christianis interfui numquam: ideo nescio quid et quatenus aut puniri soleat aut quaeri. Nec mediocriter haesitavi, sitne aliquod discrimen aetatum, an quamlibet teneri nihil a robustioribus differant; detur paenitentiae venia, an ei, qui omnino Christianibus fuit, desisse non prosit; nomen ipsum, si flagitiis careat, an flagitia cohaerentia nomini puniantur.

Interim in iis, qui ad me tamquam Christiani deferebantur, hunc sum secutus modum. Interrogavi ipsos, an essent Christiani. Confitentes iterum ac tertio interrogavi supplicium minatus: perseverantes duci iussi. Neque enim dubitabam, qualecumque esset quod faterentur, pertinaciam certe et inflexibilem obstinationem debere puniri. Fuerunt alii similis amentiae, quos quia cives Romani erant, adnotavi in urbem remittendos. Mox ipso tractatu, ut fieri solet, diffundente se crimine, plures species inciderunt. Propositus est libellus sine auctore multorum nomina continens.

Qui negabant esse se Christianos aut fuisse, cum praeeunte me deos appellarent et imagini tuae, quam propter hoc iusseram cum simulacris numinum adferri, ture ac vino supplicarent, praeterea male dicerent Christo, quorum nihil posse cogi dicuntur, qui sunt re vera Christiani, dimittendos esse putavi. Alii ab indice nominati esse se Christianos dixerunt et mox negaverunt; fuisse quidem, sed desisse, quidem ante triennium, quidam ante plures annos; non nemo etiam ante viginti. Hi quoque omnes et imaginem tuam deorumque simulacra venerati sunt et Christo maledixerunt.

Adfirmabant autem hanc fuisse summam vel culpae suae vel erroris, quod essent soliti stato die ante lucem convenire carmenque Christo quasi deo dicere secum invicem seque sacramento non in scelus aliquod obstringere, sed ne furta, ne latrocinia, ne adulteria committerent, ne fidem fallerent, ne depositum appellati abnegarent; quibus peractis, morem sibi discedendi fuisse rursusque coeundi ad capiendum cibum, promiscuum tamen et innoxium; quod ipsum facere desisse post edictum meum, quo secundum mandata tua hetaerias esse vetueram.

Quo magis necessarium credidi ex duabus ancillis, quae ministrae dicebantur, quid esset veri, et per tormenta quaerere. Nihil aliud inveni quam superstitionem pravam, immodicam.

Ideo dilata cognitione, ad consulendum te decucurri. Visa est enim mihi res digna consultatione, maxime propter periclitantium numerum. Multi enim omnis aetatis, omnis ordinis, utriusque sexus etiam vocantur in periculum et vocabuntur. Neque civitates tantum, sed vicos etiam atque agros superstitionis istius contagio pervagata est; quae videtur sisti et corrigi posse. Certe satis constat prope iam desolata templa coepisse celebrari, et sacra sollemnia diu intermissa repeti pastumque venire victimarum, cuius adhuc rarissimus emptor inveniebatur. Ex quo facile est opinari, qui turba hominum emendari possit, si sit paenitentiae locus.” [Pliny The Younger; Epistulae, Volume X, Number 96 [Latin]] - http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html


Pliny The Younger [English]:

“You have adopted the proper course, my dear Pliny, in dealing with the Christians who have been brought before you. No general or definite ruling can be laid down. They are not to be hunted out, but if brought before you and convicted of they must be punished. Those, however, who deny their Christianity and prove their denial by praying to our gods, may wipe out past suspicions, and secure a free pardon by their recantation. Anonymous accusations of all sorts are are inadmissible. They are contrary to the spirit of our time.” [Pliny The Younger; Epistulae, Volume X, Number 97; page 216-217 [English]; C. Plinii Caecilii Secundi Epistulae ad Traianum imperatorem cum eiusdem …; for total sections 96-97 [XCVI – XCVII] in Latin and English; see pages 211-217] - http://books.google.com/books?id=KSMBAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false


Pliny The Younger [Latin]:



1 Actum quem debuisti, mi Secunde,
in excutiendis causis eorum, qui Christiani ad te delati fuerant, secutus es. Neque enim in universum aliquid, quod quasi certam formam habeat, constitui potest. 2 Conquirendi non sunt; si deferantur et arguantur, puniendi sunt, ita tamen ut, qui negaverit se Christianum esse idque re ipsa manifestum fecerit, id est supplicando dis nostris, quaMVis suspectus in praeteritum, veniam ex paenitentia impetret. Sine auctore vero propositi libelli <in> nullo crimine locum habere debent. Nam et pessimi exempli nec nostri saeculi est.” [Pliny The Younger; Epistulae, Volume X, Number 97 [Latin]] - http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pliny.ep10.html



Thus, we see yet for a third time, from this Secular Historical source, that we have:

[1.] Christians”, of all age(s)”, men, women and children, were being examined” and subjected to interrogation, even by means of torture”, by the Romans for their particular practices and faith.

[2.] We see Christianity [thus theChristians”] spreading outward further from the area of origin in Jerusalem, just as was given in the scriptures. We see that some were even Roman citizens” themselves; like unto Paul (Acts 22:25-29 *a). They, who refused to renounce and curse” “Christ”, or to call on the gods” [Roman pantheon, “our gods”; etc] or to offer incense and wine to” Caesars image” when turned in and interrogated were then led (away)” and if they were also a Roman citizen were sent to the City” [Rome] for destruction.

[3.] We see that the Romans, including Pliny the Younger, called this Christianity, a disgusting, fanatical superstition”, and a madness” that was spreading even among the Roman citizenry; because it was putting to an end of their own Roman worship practices and licentiousness (Acts 14:15; Romans 1:15 * b.

[4.] We see evidence that the greater Roman government feared the Christians, for it was obvious to Pliny [the Younger] of the effect such superstition” [as he so designated Christianity] was having upon the whole populace of the Roman empire, and so says, ... the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger, and shall be [in future]. And not only the cities; the contagion of this superstition is spread throughout the villages and the countryside...”. It was all too clear [to Pliny the Younger] that there was direct correlation and evidence that Christianity was greatly and adversely affecting their [Roman] pagan worship and daily lifestyles, etc, for he states that once he had began to put his Roman 'foot down' and enforce laws against their societies”, and by force make them to cease, as he says that it might be ... possible to stop it and put it right...”, and by so doing, it would bring back all of the pagan worship in their various temples and rites and sacrifices to their gods”. So, he even notes this correlation, that once he had indeed begun to have Christians tortured”, etc that the Roman ... temples which were once deserted are beginning to be crowded, and the long interrupted sacred rites are being revived, while food from the sacrifices is selling, for which up to now a buyer was hardly to be found. ...”

[5.] We see evidence that these true Christians worshiped Christ” as a god” and would not worship others, nor of the image” of Caesar, even in the face of torture” and death. This is also verified in the scripture (Luke 24:52; John1:1-18; etc *c).

[6.] We see that written reports were being sent back to the Caesar [in this instance - Trajan] about these matters, and it was asked whether merely the name” [Christian], ought to be punished” [ie simply being Christian], whether there were accusers, charges, or any findings of wrongdoing or not. And yet we see that they [who would not renounce Christ; whom all, who being cognizant of the immediate historical facts, understood to be a real person that existed] in the meanwhile” before the Caesar replied, were being punished” and led (away)” for their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy” in adherence and unwillingness to renounce and curse” “Christ”.

[7.] Many people were examined, and we see at least three types of people. The true Christian, the non-Christian, and the Christian in name only, who either had fallen away at some point, or who once persecuted, turned back, or reneged, etc. When it was made known of these things, accusations and many criminal charges occurred and spread themselves abroad”, that even A pamphlet was published anonymously, containing the names of many.” Also it is said, that others were turned in by others, Others named by an informer...” This, Christ Jesus said would happen (Matthew 24:9-10; Mark 13:11-12 *d). Christianity was easily the scapegoat for the problems of Rome, for the populace and their enemies [even go so far as naming someone as a Christian, in the hopes of possibly eliminating an enemy!], even as they had been in the days of the Nero Caesar. We notice that Pliny remarks of that which was rumored to be known of the True Christian which differentiated them from those who were not, ...when they swore before me, called on the gods and offered incense and wine to your image (which I had ordered brought in for this [purpose], along with images of the gods), and also cursed Christ (which, it is said, it is impossible to force those who are real Christians to do) I thought worthy to be acquitted. Others named by an informer, said they had been Christians, but now denied [it]; certainly they had been, but had lapsed, some three years ago, some more; and more than one [lit. not nobody] over twenty years ago. These all worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ.”

[8.] Pliny [the Younger] even gives specific details as to what these Christians believed and practiced, and we can know the information gathered was most accurate of the true Christians, for it was gained under intense scrutiny [torture”], in that they were known to ...sing to Christ as if he were a god, and that they took an oath not to involve themselves in villainy, but rather to commit no theft, no fraud, no adultery; not to break faith, nor to deny money placed with them in trust. Once these things were done, it was their custom to part and return later to eat a meal together, innocently...”, and we can see evidence of this directly from the scriptures (Acts 2:46, 5:42, 10:22,32, 16:25, 20:20; Romans 13:9, etc *e).

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

What integrity? He originally said he was here to discuss and study together but he's long since proven he's only here to push his agenda and ignore everything else.

While his postings are not like others I know of who were banned, I can't say whether he's been here before or not, but his agenda is clear and it's not edifying and not good for this board at all.

Well, that is my point precisely.

He has proven by his actions, his purpose, and his method, as well as his misuse and abuse of Scripture that he has no real integrity.

I want to find out if his lack of integrity extends to this matter of personal integrity.

He continues to refuse to answer any simple direct questions, and I can only come yo the conclusion that his personal integrity is sorely lacking as well.
He refuses to answer, so his silence gives that answer.
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  • Advanced Member

Well, it is a simple matter of integrity.

If he has been here before and been banned, then it shows him again to be a deceiver.

I know that he has lied in some of his posts, aside from the deceptive use of truth that he excels in.

A refusal to answer this simple question affirms that he has been banned from here before.



If our URL was included in the posts we would be able to tell.

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