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“Christian Palestinianism” & Emergents Lynn Hybels And Jim Wallis Come To Multnomah University For “Justice” Conference


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I know there are some Christians out there who are not pro-Israel, but I've never encountered one in an IFB church and I don't personally know any.

 

I do know some Protestant churches that don't hold a pro-Israel position, but some of their members do.

 

Who here is anti-Israel?

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I know there are some Christians out there who are not pro-Israel, but I've never encountered one in an IFB church and I don't personally know any.

 

I do know some Protestant churches that don't hold a pro-Israel position, but some of their members do.

 

Who here is anti-Israel?

 

I know several IFB's (in person) who are not pro-Israel, John.  I have also seen threads where Covenanter has spoken ill of the Jewish people.  I didn't enter into the conversation and don't remember the title of the thread to post it.

Please watch this video of the "Palestinians" in Israel.  This is how they treat the Temple Mount.

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I've not noticed any Jew haters on OB but I was speaking of American Christians in general, not any group in particular whether on Facebook or elsewhere and my previous post was mostly with regards to those Christians who claim to support Israel.

 

If someone claimed to support America but accepted that Americans could only call Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas and Louisiana, their country, would we consider them to truly be supporting America? That's what most American Christians do who claim to support Israel and claim the land is theirs. The fact is, if one goes by Scripture, the current nation of Israel only covers a very tiny slice of what God said He was giving them.

 

Scripture doesn't say one must support Israel, it says those who bless the Jews will be blessed and those who curse the Jews will be cursed. Blessing Jews doesn't mean giving blanket support to anything Israel says or does. If one were cursed for not supporting everything regarding Israel then how do we account for the multitude of American Jews who are very liberal and have opposed much regarding Israel for decades and yet they are among the wealthiest and most politically powerful in America still?

 

Praying for the salvation of Jews is blessing them. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem is blessing Jews. Spreading the Gospel to Jews is blessing them.

:goodpost:

 

God bless,

Larry

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I fail to see how calling those who don't agree with your theology Hitler or screamingSIEG HITLER  leads to an edifying conversation.  I do not like or agree with Replacement theology ( I think it is abhorrent) but calling names like a petulant child will not convince anyone of the truth. :unsure:  You can include anti semite in that too.

 

God bless,

Larry

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I think Pilgrim was addressing the definition of anti-Semitic, not disputing that some Christians may be so. Anti-Semitic is one of those terms like "racist" that gets tossed around a lot in a manner that's not accurate.

Okay.  I wasn't sure what he meant.  Thanks, John.

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Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

 

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

 

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

 

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

 

After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

 

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

 

I am pre-millennial/dispensational. 

 

 

 

Firstly, whatever our views on "replacement theology" no-one else seems to be concerned about the "injustice issue" that is the toic under discussion. Should we be grieved at the oppression of the Tamils (Hindu) in Sri Lanka by the Sinhalese majority (Buddhist) ?

 

Jesus was certainly concerned at the oppression of the poor In Israel whenhe was there. His attitude to the Samaritans was rather more sympathetic than Israel's to the Palestinians today.  

 

Now, why do you post a long diatribe against "replacement theology" from a source that rejects it? Why not quote from the official "replacement theology" website, if there is one? I get my theology from Scripture, not biased web sites.

 

I do hold to a form of "covenant theology" as my user name indicates. As "covenant" occurs 300 times in Scripture, how could any Bible believer not believe it? But what do we understand by "covenant theology?"

 

A good starting point is Lev. 26:

 

 

3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

 

4 Then .......

9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.

11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

 

God covenants to protect & bless Israel on condition of obedience. While no-one can be perfectly obedient, a general willing compliance with God's commandments was acceptable.

 

Note that special relationship, repeated throughout Scripture: I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. Paul applies it to the Corinthians (2 Cor. 6)

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

The force of the new covenant in Jesus blood is not a change of covenant but that it depends on Jesus' obedience, not ours.

 

The Jews were not excluded or replaced, but counted in by the Gospel of Jesus preached by his Apostles, with the same warning issued through Moses:

 

Deu. 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

 

 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

 

There is no discontinuity between the old & new covenants, but the fulfilment of God's promises to Abraham converning the blessing of all nations through his seed - Jesus. And of course, as Peter explains, we belivers are a holy nation (quoting Ex. 19, Psalms & Hosea):

 

    1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,    

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

 

There is one redeemed holy nation, one redeemed people of God, saved by Jesus at the cross. Neither unbelieving Jews nor unbelieving Gentiles are citizens of that nation. The church comprises ALL the redeemed regardless of ethnicity.

 

Does Romans 11 teach the restoration of Israel as an earthly nation? NO - it teaches their salvation by faith in Jesus. Who is the delivery? Surely Jesus!

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The Church is not grafted into Israel, but into the "spiritual blessings" of the New Covenant. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is not the same as the "times of the Gentiles".

Today, during this dispensation of grace (the church age), God is calling out a people (Gentiles and INDIVIDUAL Jews) for His name (Acts 15:14-18). When the "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete (Romans 11:25b), the body of Christ/the Church, will be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). At that point, God will again resume His purposes with the nation Israel and will fulfill all the Old Testament promises and prophecies concerning them (Romans 11:25-27).

The nation of Israel and the Christ rejecting world will experience the judgment and wrath of God during the next 7 years (after the rapture).....the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7). This is called the Tribulation period, or the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 9:24-27).

Thank You, ghosts of Darby, Scofield, and spirit of Ruckman, for dumping dispensational "doctrine" on us, again.

Anishinaabe

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Thank You, ghosts of Darby, Scofield, and spirit of Ruckman, for dumping dispensational "doctrine" on us, again.

Anishinaabe

 

That was very rude, prophet.  Many on OB believe in Dispenstationalism.  Just because you don't doesn't mean others hold to your view.

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Many on OB also hold to the traditional Baptist stance which knew nothing of "dispensationalism" until the 1800s when most Baptists at first rejected the new teaching (as Spurgeon and other Baptists attest to). It wasn't until this new teaching came to America that some grasped it in New England and then Scofield latched onto the idea (he was also a promoter of the still rather new Gap Theory) and he put both those into the Bible that would carry his name, thus spreading these new teachings across America.

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I fail to see how calling those who don't agree with your theology Hitler or screamingSIEG HITLER  leads to an edifying conversation.  I do not like or agree with Replacement theology ( I think it is abhorrent) but calling names like a petulant child will not convince anyone of the truth. :unsure:  You can include anti semite in that too.

 

God bless,

Larry

 

Thank you Pilgrim, the problem is that calling people names defines them & what they believe. What I actually believe & teach is of no significance.

 

I do not believe that a nation calling itself "Israel" in the land promised to Abraham & given to Israel 3,500 years ago has anything to do with OT prophecy. If they acknowledged Jesus as Messiah, I might be persuaded. That said I hate the persecution of the Jews - "replacement theology" cannot be used to justify persecution of anyone. I believe that people of all religions should be allowed to live in peace & practice their religion, & be free to convert, wherever they live. That obviously will NOT include the Islamic doctrine of killing converts.

 

That does NOT make me "antisemitic." 

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Thank you Pilgrim, the problem is that calling people names defines them & what they believe. What I actually believe & teach is of no significance.

 

I do not believe that a nation calling itself "Israel" in the land promised to Abraham & given to Israel 3,500 years ago has anything to do with OT prophecy. If they acknowledged Jesus as Messiah, I might be persuaded. That said I hate the persecution of the Jews - "replacement theology" cannot be used to justify persecution of anyone. I believe that people of all religions should be allowed to live in peace & practice their religion, & be free to convert, wherever they live. That obviously will NOT include the Islamic doctrine of killing converts.

 

That does NOT make me "antisemitic." 

 

Covenater, there will be no peace in Israel or on earth until Jesus returns and reigns for a 1,000 years.  Even the, the Devil will be loosed for a season.

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