Members Jeffrey Posted February 10, 2014 Author Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 I did not "copy and paste". Wrote it myself. And no, I did not contradict myself in the least. Take your alcohol stained glasses off. God bless you Sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 It never fails... When the one advocating the sin of drinking alcohol can't justify his sin using Scripture, he always runs to the food and sex argument. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSword Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'll get more into this later, but read the the text again in Deut 14:26, it says we can buy the things we lust(crave), then says that we shall eat it and rejoice, how much clearer can it be? Nobody has shown me yet where God has given the Jews a blessing and called it sin for the NT church. With other blessings, food and sex us something's we can abuse. With food we can become gluttons and not be charitable with it, with sex, we can be unfaithful with our spouses, look at pornography, lust after other woman, etc. these(food and sex) are blessings from God  The focus of the text is on tithing for the purpose of acknowledging God's provision (v. 24) and reinforcing the need to revere and honor God (v. 23). Verses 25-26 are an allowance to depart from God's stated method if it is unfeasible due to location. Additionally, this was a set of instructions given to Israelites that falls between dietary laws and a command to take care of the Levites; so we have to be careful on which parts can be taken as normative principle and what is incidental to the main point. Further, this tithing and feast was done only once a year, so the allowance was only minimally applicable even to the Israelites. Also, the passage is, at best, neutral on the listed items and you have to read into the text to assert that all of them are being called blessings. The blessings that it is talking about rejoicing in is the increase of goods and provision for living, not the nature of the items consumed.  If you wanted to try to make a direct application for the action today, the best you could do that is in line with the historical-cultural context is to take what you would normally tithe to your church (if you're inclined to such) and go buy whatever you desire and take it to the church to eat. However, you could only do this if it was too burdonsome to take your tithe directly to the church. Therefore, the notion of grabbing a beer with your regular wages to drink at home or at a restaurant for private enjoyment is way outside the context of the passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSword Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 I believe that Luther was using hyperbole,..I'n out live we sin day in and day out, we can't help it because if our depravity, I never thought he was giving a license to sin  Even if that's the case, then it's a teaching on total depravity in terms of total inability and what Luther is asserting is that people can't not sin and thus should not be overly concerned with the fact that they continue to do so, but rather embrace the fact that sin is forgiven. Such a concept is entirely unbiblical and the truth is that sin is a conscious choice that must be made, not an uncontrollable inevitabiliy. However, this is an off-topic issue that we should probably take up in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 But let's ask ourselves, does God provide delicious food a party/ dinner? Do we over indulge? We sin when we are gluttons, can we blame God for that? God created man, He makes certain people beautiful, we lust after people's beauty, do we blame God for that? Can we say God provided a way for us to sin because He provided a way for us to sin? as I said, "This is how sophist reason using questions upon questions and never offer a clear answer."  these questions gender strife and not edification and the person should be avoided.   1Tim 6:4,5 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.  2Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.  Tit 3:9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 None of these scriptures are anything about alcohol. Â If you read the whole chapter of 1 Tim it's talking about money and the love for it. Â 2 Tim...The arguments they were having was about the resurrection. Â Â Â Titus is about divisions in the church concerning the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 First off, let me seek your forgiveness, it wasn't my intention to offend anybody. I offended you Dave, so I ask you for your forgiveness. I don't think the wedding party were drunk, I believe that they simply ran out, poor planning, more people showed up than expected, whatever. I believe the governor was simply stating to the servants that what usually happens at the wedding and what happened here was different. But let's ask ourselves, does God provide delicious food a party/ dinner? Do we over indulge? We sin when we are gluttons, can we blame God for that? God created man, He makes certain people beautiful, we lust after people's beauty, do we blame God for that? Can we say God provided a way for us to sin because He provided a way for us to sin? Yes,  God made some people beautiful and what did he say was the right thing to do about that? Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?  And God told us something similar about wine too......... Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 Proverbs are words of wisdom. Â Prov 23:31 is advice about not getting drunk. Â If you read it through v 35 you will see the person is in a drunken state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 Proverbs are words of wisdom.  Prov 23:31 is advice about not getting drunk.  If you read it through v 35 you will see the person is in a drunken state. If thou art already drunken Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.........  My Bible doesn't say that. It doesn't specify any situation or state of mind. It just says "look not". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 I am trying to bring glory to nobody but God, I have tried to be true to his word and not a philosophy of man  If trying is what you're doing, doing is what you're not. How can one say he is bringing glory to God, or trying to bring glory to God, when one is rejecting wisdom? Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. We know your argument, that God didn't say that, Solomon did. News Flash!!, God had men record it in His Word for a reason. Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Wine and strong drink deceive the one drinking them... Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Wine causes people to act in an ungodly manner. Proverbs 23:29-31 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. And no, verse 31 is not speaking to one who has been drinking. The writer said, "who hath woe?..." He then answered, "THEY that..." He did not answer, "You who..." He answered, "THEY THAT..." indicating he was referring to someone other than the person he was speaking to.  There is no indication in that verse that says Solomon's son was drinking alcohol. And the rebuke was, "Look not thou..." not after you, but "when IT". Speaking of when the wine is fermented. Wisdom says, don't even look at it when it is fermented. Sadly, some would rather reject wisdom and do what seems right in their own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 Proverbs 23:29-35 is advice for a person that has a problem with excessive drinking and becoming drunk not to even look at it. Â Verse 20 mentions "winebibber." Â A person who drinks much wine. Â Verse 30 "they that tarry long at the wine." Â Verse 21 specifically says "drunkard." Â Verse 29 shows loss of control. Â Verses 33, 34, 35 shows what state they're in. Verse 35 "I will seek it yet again." Â Sounds like an alcoholic. Â Are you telling me that anyone who drinks alcohol in moderation without abuse would get to the state of drunkenness or perhaps become an alcoholic? Â Are you saying people can't use wisdom or use self-control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 The instruction in Proverbs 23:31 is not to look upon fermented beverage. ; Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 The instruction in Proverbs 23:31 is not to look upon fermented beverage. ; Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. That advice is given to those who "seeks" after it and drinks too much of it. Verse 30. Â They shouldn't even "look" at it. Â It's advice against excessive drinking. Â Nothing about abstinence. Â Â Not sure why the other Proverbs verses were quoted. Â The whole book of Proverbs is a "wisdom" book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted February 10, 2014 Members Share Posted February 10, 2014 None of these scriptures are anything about alcohol.  If you read the whole chapter of 1 Tim it's talking about money and the love for it.  2 Tim...The arguments they were having was about the resurrection.    Titus is about divisions in the church concerning the law. the Application of these verse allows anything that causes strife's of words (meaning arguing over words), contentions, unlearned questions no mater what they are and who uses them they are to be avoided both the person and arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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