In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[GraceSaved]

Or as in Romans Paul say do it before God, ie; do it alone where your not bothering anybody

GS, weaker brother, watch thy step!

No.  He's being sarcastic with his controlling legalism.

[GraceSaved]

Haha.  

 

Because I'd rather go sit down and have a beer and have a friendly conversation with someone than try to convince a rock wall to move.  

Are you sure you want to join the band wagon with us "sipping saints"?  I've been marked, ya know.  :-)

[John81]

SERIOUS QUESTION

 

Is anyone participating in this thread being swayed at all by the arguments put forth, either pro or con, from your beginning position to the other position?

 

If yes, why and what have you found to be the most compelling argument?

 

If no, why not?

[swathdiver]

...because you can't define where sober ends and where drunk begins for anybody. 

 

You can, right after the first sip.

 

From Brother John R. Rice:

 

I call your attention to the double curse of God on booze

 

First, there is a curse on the drunkard. Who is a drunkard? When is a man a drunk? Many a man, after he has been arrested for killing somebody with his car, or after a fatal accident, says to the judge, “Why, Judge, I only had two or three beers. I wasn’t drunk.” He couldn’t drive well, couldn’t see well. He couldn’t get his foot on the brake as quickly as he ought to; he was not as reliable a driver under the influence of liquor. But he said he wasn’t drunk. Because he wasn’t unconscious or wasn’t in a stupor, he thinks he wasn’t drunk.

 

When is a man drunk? When a man has drunk, he is drunk. Anybody who drinks beverage alcohol in any degree is somewhat affected by it, and so he is drunk to that degree. A man can get more drunk than he already is. He can drink until he is unconscious and can’t drink any more. A man can drink until a certain percentage of alcohol gets into the blood and stops the motor responses so that he quits breathing and dies. Now, that is a little more drunk than he was while he was breathing. Yet he is still drunk.

 

You know that the word drunk is part of the word drink, drank, drunk; or, drink, drank, drunken. A drunkard is a man who drinks. Anybody who drinks any alcoholic liquor is under the influence of it, is affected by it, and to that degree is drunk.

 

If it takes eight glasses of beer to make a man drunk (it takes less than that for some people) then the man who has one glass is one-eighth drunk. The man who has two glasses is one-fourth drunk. And no man on-fourth drunk is safe as an engineer of a passenger train, safe to drive an automobile down the road, or safe to handle a steam shovel or a drill press, or a welding torch. No girl who is one-fourth drunk is safe in the presence of sex temptation. The man who would not gamble without drinking, will gamble when he is one-fourth drunk. And the man who never intended to take more than two glasses of beer can be tempted to take more when he is already one-fourth drunk!

 

Now what are some of the curses of God on the drunkard? Listen to Proverbs 23:21: “For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.”

 

What is the curse on the drunkard? Poverty. I need not prove that. How many of you ever knew somebody who was poor because of liquor?

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Sermons/Dr%20John%20Rice/double_curse.htm

 

http://articles.ochristian.com/article10544.shtml

[1John2:15-17]

No.  He's being sarcastic with his controlling legalism.

Legalism?? That's a term thrown around by liberal, evangelicals, and those who don't want to heed the Bible.

[GraceSaved]

SERIOUS QUESTION

 

Is anyone participating in this thread being swayed at all by the arguments put forth, either pro or con, from your beginning position to the other position?

 

If yes, why and what have you found to be the most compelling argument?

 

If no, why not?

I personally am not here to change anyone's mind or have anyone change mine.  I'm looking at other's viewpoints and why they have them and also share mine.

[GraceSaved]

Legalism?? That's a term thrown around by liberal, evangelicals, and those who don't want to heed the Bible.

Legalism is imposing someone's opinion of right and wrong and expect others to follow.

[GraceSaved]

Legalism?? That's a term thrown around by liberal, evangelicals, and those who don't want to heed the Bible.

It's also an offensive word for those who want to control others and what they do.  Are you offended?

[TheSword]

SERIOUS QUESTION

 

Is anyone participating in this thread being swayed at all by the arguments put forth, either pro or con, from your beginning position to the other position?

 

If yes, why and what have you found to be the most compelling argument?

 

If no, why not?

 

Jeffrey's points/questions on Deu 24 and practices/uses of alcohol in the first three centuries of the church warrant more research in my mind, but I remain unconvinced because none of the arguments put forth take into account (or yet acknowledge) the different uses of "wine" in both a linguistic and practical sense.  Additionally, the discussion has focused on analyzing passages that appear to permit drinking with somewhat conjectural arguments that it is not expressly prohibited rather than an anlysis of overarching biblical principle on what God thinks about alcohol. I've admittedly perpeuated some of this line of discussion, but it's because I want to understand the whole other side of the argument.

 

If someone could prove me wrong on my position of abstinence, I would gleefully change positions because honestly...sometimes my flesh misses the old days of moderate drinking. However, no convincing arguments have been put forth and I remain convinced that drinking alcohol is not a God-honoring thing to do, particularly in American culture.

[John81]

Legalism is one of those words all too often used wrongfully, and unless carefully used so all understand it's point, can best be left aside.

[GraceSaved]

 

You can, right after the first sip.

 

From Brother John R. Rice:

 

I call your attention to the double curse of God on booze

 

First, there is a curse on the drunkard. Who is a drunkard? When is a man a drunk? Many a man, after he has been arrested for killing somebody with his car, or after a fatal accident, says to the judge, “Why, Judge, I only had two or three beers. I wasn’t drunk.” He couldn’t drive well, couldn’t see well. He couldn’t get his foot on the brake as quickly as he ought to; he was not as reliable a driver under the influence of liquor. But he said he wasn’t drunk. Because he wasn’t unconscious or wasn’t in a stupor, he thinks he wasn’t drunk.

 

When is a man drunk? When a man has drunk, he is drunk. Anybody who drinks beverage alcohol in any degree is somewhat affected by it, and so he is drunk to that degree. A man can get more drunk than he already is. He can drink until he is unconscious and can’t drink any more. A man can drink until a certain percentage of alcohol gets into the blood and stops the motor responses so that he quits breathing and dies. Now, that is a little more drunk than he was while he was breathing. Yet he is still drunk.

 

You know that the word drunk is part of the word drink, drank, drunk; or, drink, drank, drunken. A drunkard is a man who drinks. Anybody who drinks any alcoholic liquor is under the influence of it, is affected by it, and to that degree is drunk.

 

If it takes eight glasses of beer to make a man drunk (it takes less than that for some people) then the man who has one glass is one-eighth drunk. The man who has two glasses is one-fourth drunk. And no man on-fourth drunk is safe as an engineer of a passenger train, safe to drive an automobile down the road, or safe to handle a steam shovel or a drill press, or a welding torch. No girl who is one-fourth drunk is safe in the presence of sex temptation. The man who would not gamble without drinking, will gamble when he is one-fourth drunk. And the man who never intended to take more than two glasses of beer can be tempted to take more when he is already one-fourth drunk!

 

Now what are some of the curses of God on the drunkard? Listen to Proverbs 23:21: “For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.”

 

What is the curse on the drunkard? Poverty. I need not prove that. How many of you ever knew somebody who was poor because of liquor?

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Sermons/Dr%20John%20Rice/double_curse.htm

 

http://articles.ochristian.com/article10544.shtml

 

Who is Brother Rice and why should I read this?  Because he's Baptist?

[GraceSaved]

Legalism is one of those words all too often used wrongfully, and unless carefully used so all understand it's point, can best be left aside.

Not when someone straight up tells me NOT to do something.

[GraceSaved]

Legalism is one of those words all too often used wrongfully, and unless carefully used so all understand it's point, can best be left aside.

BTW...the person I addressed this to likes to point out where I'm "disobedient" in other threads as well.

[GraceSaved]

I think you missed my overall point (possibly because I didn't state it well enough). My main point is that even if an individual drink is not sinful, every drink is taking a stride of unknown length toward an invisible line of sin because you can't define where sober ends and where drunk begins for anybody. Every sip is flirting with that line and trying to get as close to sin as possible without actually going over. In my opinion, for what little it may be worth, such a behavior reveals an attitude of self-will/-desire over God's will/desire in the same way kids hold their finger inches away from something you've told them not to touch while saying "I'm not touching it! I'm not touching it!" (not intended to be a reference back to Proverbs in any way)

 

To use the comparison to sex that Jeffery brought up earlier. Suppose I, a married man, become friends with another woman independent of my wife. There's no sin in having friends right? Maybe we text each other or send friendly messages on Facebook. No big deal right? It's not a sin to talk to my friends. Maybe we get close and become each other's confidants and we lean on each other emotionally. My wife shouldn't have a problem with any of this right? I'm not doing anything wrong. Suddenly we start having "feelings" for each other and just want to be around one another. We're not doing anything wrong, just hanging out as friends, I know my wife doesn't like it but it's fine because we're not having an affair. Sure there's hugging but it's not adultery. Yeah, we're close and I didn't expect any feelings to develop...they just did. Do I need go farther or does everybody see how that little, unfortunately common, scenario ends? Would it be better to just use use common sense and trust that I'll know when things have gone too far? Or perhaps not to have exclusive friendship with women other than my wife and ensure that road is never even travelled?

I get what you're saying.  Why put your hand in the cookie jar?  We don't all struggle with the same temptations in life.  What may be a struggle for you may not be one for me and vice versa. 

[John81]

Brother Rice was a Baptist pastor and the founder of Sword of the Lord.

 

Not all IFBs agree with some of what Brother Rice had to say because he was not KJO and some say he held to wrong views on matters such as healing, tithing and giving, miracles, etc.

 

Myself, I found Brother Rice's book, "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" (the full volume, not the abridged one) to be a great blessing.