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Jeffrey

In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

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You're part right Jeffrey, Jesus drank new wine or grape juice.  He could not have drank fermented wine.So why did He tell the Pharisees He drank wine?

 

That would make God a liar and the bible not true. Actually the Bible is quite clear that alcohol is a blessing from God, you just have chosen to ignore it rather to lean on the teaching of people you have latched on to that preaches abstinence and works of the flesh and morality and shy away from the Gospel

 

 Isaiah 55:1 refers to grape juice of course.  God is not a liar and the bible is not untrue.  Um, no! Wine here is translated from yayin, Strongs 3196, same word that got Noah and Lott drunk

 

Jeffrey, did you happen to share your testimony with us?  I love to read of the ways people made it into heaven. I have, you have not read all my posts; besides I beleive from the contexts of our conversations that you are being disingenuous. 

 

 

You should read it because it's edifying and true, not because he was a great evangelist and independent, fundamental, soul-winning, baptist.  Then would you read any Calvin? Luther?

Edited by Jeffrey

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Point 1:  If Jesus did, it was grape juice.

 

Point 2:  Simply not true, in fact God places a double curse on the drunkard.  Do you realize that the majority of people calling themselves Christians abstained from alcohol only until the last century?

 

Point 3: Greek Schmeek, the King James is all I need to know what God wrote, I don't have to play the Greek game when context if key in the English.  Are you TR or KJV only Jeffrey?

 

Point 4: You're wrong Jeffrey, I like to read everyone's testimony whether I agree with them on something or not.  Brother John81 and I have being going round and round about music for years but still count him as my brother in Christ for example.  Could you point the way to it please?

 

Point 5:  Not necessarily.  My memory is foggy on those two, I do not remember reading of a biblical testimony of salvation from them.  Did they ever give a biblical testimony of salvation? 

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Luke 7:33-34

Like the false accusers of Luke 7, you too accuse the Lord of drinking something that the Bible does not say He drank.

Jesus was, is, and always will be, the King of kings. 

It is not for kings to drink wine or strong drink lest they forget the law and pervert the judgment of the afflicted.

Try as you might, you cannot put alcohol into the Lord's hands.  Your good words and fair speeches may deceive the minds of the simple, but you'll never convince us that your sin is acceptable to God.

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Proverbs 23:29-31 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."

 

I keep seeing these verses quoted and I have a question.  What does, when it moveth itself aright mean?

 

God bless,

Larry

The phrase, "when it moveth" is translated from the Hebrew word, "halak".  The primary definition of "halak" is to walk or traverse.  This definition would not make sense, as alcohol does not walk.  The secondary definition is to lead away.. which is exactly what fermented wine will do.  It will lead away the one consuming it.  The Bible says when wine has the capability to lead away the imbiber, that wine is not even to be looked upon.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

It mocks and deceives the one drinking it.  It leads them away, showing it's power over them and its control of their senses.  They think they are in control, but in reality, it is the wine that is controlling them

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 Jesus drank wine, was He a drunkard?

 

 Actually God bless's man with it Isaiah 55:1

You have yet to produce Scripture that says Jesus drank an alcoholic wine.

God doesn't bless man with alcohol.  He curses man who gives alcohol to others.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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You have yet to produce Scripture that says Jesus drank an alcoholic wine.

God doesn't bless man with alcohol.  He curses man who gives alcohol to others.

Luke 7  Jesus was comparing himself to John the Baptist 

Luke 7: 33 AVKJFor John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

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The only place one can extract alcohol from that passage in Luke is from the accusations of the Pharisees.  They accused Jesus of drinking alcohol.  He never said He drank it.  He only said He came eating and drinking.  He did not say what He was eating and drinking.

If you are going to attempt to smear Jesus' character by putting alcohol in His hand, you may as well attempt to have Him eating ham as well.

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We obviously have a different opinion of what God's Word says.

So it is safe to say by this reply that the clear scripture not to drink alcoholic Beverages because it offends, weakens and stumbles your brother in Christ in your opinion does not need to be followed because you don't understand or see that the commandment of Romans 14:21 as a reason not to drink alcoholic beverages?

 

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

Since when is God's word dependent on your or my opinion?

 

Roms 14:21 is not my opinion it is the commandment of God.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Webster's 1828 Dictionary
wine-bibber

WINE-BIBBER, n. One who drinks much wine; a great drinker. Proverbs 23.

 

Jesus was not a wine-bibber that is a fact though his enemies claimed him to be.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Even if one believes they have liberty to drink alcohol, there are numerous biblical reasons to willingly abstain for the glory of God.

To Jeffery we are not glorifying God as he does because we are not drinking wine and strong drink.  He is obviously more spiritual than we who are abstaining from alcoholic beverages.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Let me say something else in this discussion.  Did the Lord Jesus Christ use fermented wine in the Lord's Supper?  First of all good wine and fermented wine are two different things in the Bible, Jeffrey.  Many Christians believe that fermented wine is pure wine and that through fermentation, all the impurities are worked out.  Many Christians will argue that wine is more symbolic of the blood of Jesus.  However, the blood of Jesus was NOT impure.  It contained NO impurities that needed to be worked out.  It was pure, and came from the Lord Jesus Christ's veins.

Good wine is wine in where decay has not taken place.  The fermentation is caused by germs or bacteria.  Changing good wine into fermented wine is the work of bacteria.  Fermented wine would be a picture of tainted blood and NOT the pure blood of Jesus Christ.

Jesus also used unleavened bread for the Lord's Supper.  Leaven causes the working of bacteria or fungus in food and was forbidden.  This bread was a symbol of the broken body of Christ.  So, if bacteria was not in bread, then the Jesus wouldn't use fermented wine caused by germs.

Fermented wine does NOT represent the blood of Jesus Christ.  The drink in the Lord's Supper is a picture of the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.  

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood:  This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." ~ I Corinthians 11:25  

Most Protestant churches are using fermented wine for communion. just as the RCC uses it.  This is an abomination to God. The impurities are in fermented wine.  But the blood of Jesus was NOT impure.  It had NO impurities that needed working out.  It was pure as it is a symbol of Jesus blood that came from His veins.  To change the good wine and make it different than it was when it came from the grape is to imply that Jesus' blood was not sufficient as it was when it came from His veins.

Fermented wine is good wine in which decay has not taken place.  Fermented wine contains alcohol which is a poison and certainly would NOT picture the blood of Jesus Christ.

As I posted earlier, since leaven bread was not used in the Lord's Supper.  Then the Lord did NOT use fermented wine, as well.

Good wine is the fruit of the vine, as is an accurate picture of the blood of the sinless Son of God.  
 

Also, note that the priests were forbidden to use fermented wines when they entered the holy places in the Old Testament Tabernacle.  

"And the LORD spake unto Aaron saying, 9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die:  it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations:  10  And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;" ~ Leviticus 10:8-10

These priests, entering the tabernacle of the congregation, were types of Jesus, our High Priest.  If those who were types of the great High Priest were not to use wine or strong drink, it is unthinkable that Jesus would drink fermented wine or strong drink before His crucifixion.  

"Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court." ~ Ezekiel 44:21

Jesus did NOT drink any fermented wine for the Passover Supper or have given that as a type of His blood.  Jesus Christ knows the scriptures, Jeffrey.  After all, He is God.  He knew the Bible warnings in the scriptures in the Proverbs, which SFIC has already posted for you.

"WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging:  and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." ~ Proverbs 20:1

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself upright.  At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." ~ Proverbs 23:31-32

The Lord Jesus Christ would NOT have contradicted and disobeyed plain commands of the Old Testament.  He was very careful throughout His sinless life to see that ALL the scriptures were fulfilled.  

"After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith I thirst.  29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar:  and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:  and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." ~ John 19:28-30

NO blood bought, born again Christian should ever drink an intoxicating beverage.

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So it is safe to say by this reply that the clear scripture not to drink alcoholic Beverages because it offends, weakens and stumbles your brother in Christ in your opinion does not need to be followed because you don't understand or see that the commandment of Romans 14:21 as a reason not to drink alcoholic beverages?

 

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

Since when is God's word dependent on your or my opinion?

 

Roms 14:21 is not my opinion it is the commandment of God.

The Romans quote you posted also says it is good not to eat flesh.  Do you eat meat?  If you do, then you should abstain and never, ever eat it again according to that scripture.  Are you going to now become a vegetarian? 

 

No one is disputing what alcohol can do to people if it is overused and abused.

 

If you read the whole chapter of Romans 14 we are not to be condescending to each other whether we choose to abstain or not abstain.  We are to make up our own minds on these matters and give an account for our own lives.  I'm not suppose to tear you down for abstaining.  Likewise, I should not be slandered for something I think is good.  The kingdom of God is not about eating or drinking.  We are also told that we can hold on to what we believe but to keep it between ourselves and God. We are to abstain from anything that causes our brothers/sisters to fall from faith.  This is a two-way street.  I'd like some of the people on this forum to abstain from condescending name-calling.

 

The chapter also talks about people seeing certain days of worship more sacred than others.  We worship on Sunday.  There is an SDA member on this forum who believes worship should be on Sat.  Should we all now start worshipping on Sat. as not to offend him?  I don't know much about the SDA but from what I read on his posts, he has never said anything mean about anyone which is more than I can say for some of the IFB members on this board.

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Let me say something else in this discussion. Did the Lord Jesus Christ use fermented wine in the Lord's Supper? First of all good wine and fermented wine are two different things in the Bible, Jeffrey. Many Christians believe that fermented wine is pure wine and that through fermentation, all the impurities are worked out. Many Christians will argue that wine is more symbolic of the blood of Jesus. However, the blood of Jesus was NOT impure. It contained NO impurities that needed to be worked out. It was pure, and came from the Lord Jesus Christ's veins.
Good wine is wine in where decay has not taken place. The fermentation is caused by germs or bacteria. Changing good wine into fermented wine is the work of bacteria. Fermented wine would be a picture of tainted blood and NOT the pure blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus also used unleavened bread for the Lord's Supper. Leaven causes the working of bacteria or fungus in food and was forbidden. This bread was a symbol of the broken body of Christ. So, if bacteria was not in bread, then the Jesus wouldn't use fermented wine caused by germs.
Fermented wine does NOT represent the blood of Jesus Christ. The drink in the Lord's Supper is a picture of the shed blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." ~ I Corinthians 11:25
Most Protestant churches are using fermented wine for communion. just as the RCC uses it. This is an abomination to God. The impurities are in fermented wine. But the blood of Jesus was NOT impure. It had NO impurities that needed working out. It was pure as it is a symbol of Jesus blood that came from His veins. To change the good wine and make it different than it was when it came from the grape is to imply that Jesus' blood was not sufficient as it was when it came from His veins.
Fermented wine is good wine in which decay has not taken place. Fermented wine contains alcohol which is a poison and certainly would NOT picture the blood of Jesus Christ.
As I posted earlier, since leaven bread was not used in the Lord's Supper. Then the Lord did NOT use fermented wine, as well.
Good wine is the fruit of the vine, as is an accurate picture of the blood of the sinless Son of God.

Also, note that the priests were forbidden to use fermented wines when they entered the holy places in the Old Testament Tabernacle.
"And the LORD spake unto Aaron saying, 9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations: 10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;" ~ Leviticus 10:8-10
These priests, entering the tabernacle of the congregation, were types of Jesus, our High Priest. If those who were types of the great High Priest were not to use wine or strong drink, it is unthinkable that Jesus would drink fermented wine or strong drink before His crucifixion.
"Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court." ~ Ezekiel 44:21
Jesus did NOT drink any fermented wine for the Passover Supper or have given that as a type of His blood. Jesus Christ knows the scriptures, Jeffrey. After all, He is God. He knew the Bible warnings in the scriptures in the Proverbs, which SFIC has already posted for you.
"WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." ~ Proverbs 20:1
"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself upright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." ~ Proverbs 23:31-32
The Lord Jesus Christ would NOT have contradicted and disobeyed plain commands of the Old Testament. He was very careful throughout His sinless life to see that ALL the scriptures were fulfilled.
"After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith I thirst. 29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." ~ John 19:28-30
NO blood bought, born again Christian should ever drink an intoxicating beverage.

CL, UMike challenged my position on the Lords Supper, I am still studying some aspects of that, it is very interesting Edited by Jeffrey

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Thanks for letting me know, Jeffrey.  I haven't had time to read over the other thread, yet.  I just noticed that you posted a thread of your own.  That is good, brother.


You're a peach! Thank you, I know I haven't been this popular since,... Never!:D

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Like the false accusers of Luke 7, you too accuse the Lord of drinking something that the Bible does not say He drank.
Jesus was, is, and always will be, the King of kings. 
It is not for kings to drink wine or strong drink lest they forget the law and pervert the judgment of the afflicted.
Try as you might, you cannot put alcohol into the Lord's hands.  Your good words and fair speeches may deceive the minds of the simple, but you'll never convince us that your sin is acceptable to God.


Actually Jesus is comparing Himself to John who was under a vow, Jesus was under no such vow, so He said he was drinking, that's why yet called him a drunk,
Explain to me then the same question I put to Sword yesterday concerning Romans and Colossians

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Does anyone understand the fermentation process of grapes?  Since there are different viewpoints on when the Bible is referring to wine as being fermented or merely grape juice, perhaps someone can start a thread on that? 

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Any concept of grace that makes us more comfortable in sinning, is NOT Biblical grace. Any time someone chooses to find ways around what God says is wrong is NOT honoring or pleasing God.

Is drinking alcohol, in and of itself sin, if used in moderation?  To drink or not to drink.  That is the question.  I would like someone to show me a scripture that says drinking alcohol is a sin.  I only see scriptures that refer to drunkenness as being the sin.   

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