Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

DaveW

Sabbath Worship?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

re:  "Acts 2:1..."

When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1 st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings.

????????????????

1.  Was the day of Pentecost on a Sunday, the first day of the week?
2.  Were the believers and disciples of Christ gathered "with one accord in one place" on that day?
3.  Did God the Father and God the Son Themselves hand-pick that day to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the church?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2019 at 9:03 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "1.  Was the day of Pentecost on a Sunday, the first day of the week?"

Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on when the count starts. 

 

re:  "2.  Were the believers and disciples of Christ gathered 'with one accord in one place' on that day?"

Acts 2:1 says they were. 

 

re:  3.  Did God the Father and God the Son Themselves hand-pick that day to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the church?" 

Scripture doesn't say.   Acts 2:1-4 only says that on the day of Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit. 

 

But I don't see what that has to do with my comment in post #24.
 

 

Edited by rstrats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  Paul wrote, on authority from the Holy Spirit, that, especially for gentiles, the observation of Sabbaths, special feast days, etc. as well as the eating or non-eating of certain foods was a matter of individual conscience, and to not criticize one whose own conscience was different.  While I don't believe any man-made, non-Scriptural doctrines of faith/worship, I don't criticize others solely for worshipping on Saturdays. However, in the US, Saturday worship meetings are almost part of a cult, such as SDA. Several of those cults try to follow those parts of the "Mosaic" law that are fairly easy for them to obey, ignoring the rest, and God's statement that if one lives by "the law", one must live by every jot & tittle of it, which, of course, no one can do, & was done only by Jesus. In all that, those cults have made their own little storefront jesus, which is neither actual Lord or Savior, but is a man-made character like Santa Claus or Spider-Man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, rstrats said:

What is your question about with regard to weekly gatherings?

My question marks were not about "weekly gatherings."  Rather, they were about your own handling of Acts 2:1-ff.  Based upon your comments in the following posting:

On 7/14/2019 at 8:11 AM, rstrats said:

Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "1.  Was the day of Pentecost on a Sunday, the first day of the week?"

Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on when the count starts. 

 

re:  "2.  Were the believers and disciples of Christ gathered 'with one accord in one place' on that day?"

Acts 2:1 says they were. 

 

re:  3.  Did God the Father and God the Son Themselves hand-pick that day to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the church?" 

Scripture doesn't say.   Acts 2:1-4 only says that on the day of Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit. 

 

But I don't see what that has to do with my comment in post #24.

. . . It appears to me that you have not studied God's Word enough to know that the Day of Pentecost was ALWAYS on a Sunday, or enough to know that the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was in direct fulfillment of Christ's promise as per Luke 24:49; John 14:16-17; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-15.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

My question marks were not about "weekly gatherings." 


So why did you quote my comment, i.e.,  "When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings." if your question marks were not asking about that comment?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2019 at 8:50 AM, rstrats said:

Pastor Scott Markle,

re:  "John 20:19..."
First time.

 

re:  "Acts 20:7..."
Second time. 

 

re:  "Acts 2:1..."
When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1 st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings.

 

re:  "1 Corinthians 16:2..."
Nothing is said about anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week.  
 

8 minutes ago, rstrats said:

So why did you quote my comment, i.e.,  "When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings." if your question marks were not asking about that comment?

In your earlier posting you had specified those two times as John 20:19 & Acts 20:7.  As such, you excluded Acts 2:1-ff from your recognition as a New Testament account concerning the first day of the week.  At the time of my "????" response, I was not yet aware of your Biblical ignorance concerning the fact that the Day of Pentecost was ALWAYS on a Sunday.  Thus my "???" were intended as a challenge against your exclusion of Acts 2:1-ff from your list.  You acknowledged John 20:19 & Acts 20:7 as two times.  Based upon the Biblical facts concerning the Day of Pentecost, you should have at least acknowledged three times.  I was not questioning your reference to "weekly gatherings."  I was questioning and challenging your statement concerning "only 2 times."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does this theory work?

In the very beginning of the churches, Christians included a lot of Jewish converts who were zealous in the law.  Perhaps the Christians met on Sunday because their Jewish members were still attending services in the synagogue or temple on Saturday.   This then settled into standard practice and became tradition, even though it was not necessary after the churches broke away from the synagogues. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  Most of the meetings of Christians in NT Scripture were on the first day of the week, thich has always been SUNDAY, on our calendars. (Some calendars are made to show Sunday as the last day of the week, for various reasons, usually pertaining to work schedules.)

   But, are we disobeying GOD by having our special worship days on Sundays? Not according to what He had Paul write in Col. 2:16- Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(Remember- He gave the Sabbath ONLY TO ISRAEL.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2019 at 8:08 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In your earlier posting you had specified those two times as John 20:19 & Acts 20:7.  As such, you excluded Acts 2:1-ff from your recognition as a New Testament account concerning the first day of the week."


DaveW started this topic with what I thought was with regard to weekly meetings on the first day of the week.  He wrote:  "...the Bible is quite plain that organised meetings were absolutely definitely held on Sundays."  Although not specifically stated, my reply was predicated on the idea that he was at least implying that there were multiple accounts of folks meeting weekly on the first day of the week.  So when I wrote there were only two times mentioned in scripture I was referring to weekly gatherings on the first day of the week. I didn't include the Acts reference since it is referring to an annual event.   In the furture I will try to be more specific with regard to my intent. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Romans 14 not answer this whole question clearly, completely and simply?

I am so confused right now as to why this discussion even took place.

If you're going to have an argument regarding which day of the week we "must" meet on for church, we will, if we are both intelligent and honest, have to include a separate argument regarding which calendar God was looking at whenever He set everything up.

The SDA's argue against Sunday worship because "it was invented by Rome" while observing the Hebrew "Sabbath" on a Gregorian calendar, given to them by ... Pope Gregory! 😂😁😅

Humans...they boggle the mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

Does Romans 14 not answer this whole question clearly, completely and simply?

I am so confused right now as to why this discussion even took place.

If you're going to have an argument regarding which day of the week we "must" meet on for church, we will, if we are both intelligent and honest, have to include a separate argument regarding which calendar God was looking at whenever He set everything up.

The SDA's argue against Sunday worship because "it was invented by Rome" while observing the Hebrew "Sabbath" on a Gregorian calendar, given to them by ... Pope Gregory! 😂😁😅

Humans...they boggle the mind.

I don't actually remember, but I think the first post (which was mine) was separated from an existing thread. The Original post was posted to lay out the plain and biblical facts of the matter in such a way that the issue was made plain. As can be clearly seen, the plain biblical facts are still denied by some, and excuses are made to allow those to continue to argue, whilst pretending they are not.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

weary warrior,
re:  "Does Romans 14 not answer this whole question clearly, completely and simply?"

Not in any of the various translations/versions that I've seen. The subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with dietary practices.  This chapter says nothing with regard to the Sabbath. 

 

 

re:  "The SDA's argue against Sunday worship because 'it was invented by Rome' while observing the Hebrew 'Sabbath' on a Gregorian calendar, given to them by ... Pope Gregory!"

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.  I wonder if you might elaborate?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. note

 6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it."

If a man regards Sunday as a special holy day, thats between him and God, he is worshiping God and God accepts it. If a man feels God is the God of all, and all days are equally belonging to God, and worships on Thuresday with the assembly because thats when they are free, theyre worshiping God and God accepts it. That's ok too. The Lord who is Lord of the Sabbath is Lord of Tuesday or Friday as well.

We are not actually commanded to worship on any particular day. The early church DID worship on the first day of the week, yes. They also greeted each other with holy kisses and washed each other's feet. Which we don't do.

Our own worship and service must follow and adhere to one of two sources. Scriptural command or historical precedent. If we glean through the book of Acts of the Apostles ("acts", actions...the "history" of the Apostles) for our methodology and turn it into mandated doctrine, we are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. We make traditions into doctrine. And we will be doing silly things like  choosing church leadership by rolling the dice (Acts 1:26). Instead, we pick and choose what traditions we make into mandated doctrine. Into dogma.

As for my other observation about the calendars, God gave the Hebrew people, who had their own Hebrew calendar, a command to keep a uniquely Hebrew holy day. We don't use that calendar. So an SDA in Cincinnati uses a calendar invented and given them by a Catholic Pope in Europe to observe a Jewish day from a Hebrew calendar, because to observe Sunday worship on that same catholic calender from Europe would be following the leadership and influence of the pope. I just find it humorously ironic the knots we tie ourself up in when we start trying to observe holy days and habits from another time, culture, continent, language and calendar that are not specifically commanded us in scripture, just to be more holy. None of that is what makes us holy. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, weary warrior said:

DaveW, if my tone in my post came off as cheeky or disrespectful, I do want to apologize. That's not how I ment it. 

Not at all - I thought it might be helpful to give some explanation. 😊

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

weary warrior,
re:  "5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. note  6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." 

And again, the issues being addressed in Romans 14 have to do with dietary practices.  Nothing is said about the Sabbath. 

 

 

re:  "The early church DID worship on the first day of the week, yes."

Just so it's understood that scripture is silent with regard to saying that anyone met on the first day of the week for the purpose of weekly worship - or for that matter for a day of rest. 

 

 

With regard to your comments about calendars, I still don't see your point with regard to Sabbath observance. 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, rstrats said:

weary warrior,
re:  "5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. note  6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." 

And again, the issues being addressed in Romans 14 have to do with dietary practices.  Nothing is said about the Sabbath. 

 

 

re:  "The early church DID worship on the first day of the week, yes."

Just so it's understood that scripture is silent with regard to saying that anyone met on the first day of the week for the purpose of weekly worship - or for that matter for a day of rest. 

 

 

With regard to your comments about calendars, I still don't see your point with regard to Sabbath observance. 
 

If you still can't see it, there's not much I can do to help. So we'll just move along.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/26/2019 at 7:56 AM, weary warrior said:

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

As per the portions that I have emphasized with emboldening and underlining, it sure appears to me that these verses are talking about DAYS, not about diets.
 

On 11/27/2019 at 6:56 AM, rstrats said:

And again, the issues being addressed in Romans 14 have to do with dietary practices.  Nothing is said about the Sabbath. 

Brother "Rstrats," could you point out the particular wording in the verses above which move you to see the issue of diets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  Some confusion has come from  the story of Jesus' crucufixion The self-righteous Jews who wanted Him dead asked the Romans to make sure He & the other two condemned men were dead & to remove their bodies from the crosses before sunset, as the coming day was a Sabbath.

   Now, this wasn't the regular weekly Sabbath, but was a HIGH SABBATH, the first of the two Holy Convocation days that God ordained, first in Ex. 12:16. These days could fall on any day of the week, including  Saturday. (When that occurred, the rules of the regular Sabbath were followed, as well as any special rules for that particular High Sabbath that may apply.)

  The misunderstanding led to the man-made creation of "Good Friday",  in the mistaken belief that Jesus died on a Friday. But actually, He died on a Wednesday before sunset, which began Thursday for the Jews, & was resurrected, I believe on Saturday, shortly before sunset, so by Sunday AM He had been resurrected for several hours. And "Good Friday" isn't actually a "holy day".

 

   As for the regular weekly Sabbath, God gave it only to Israel to observe for ever, so a Jew who worships on Saturday isn't wrong. However, most of the rest of Israel, whoever/wherever they may be, has gotten away from this.

 

 Col. 2: 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

  While the Colossian Church was made up of mostly gentiles,  some Jewish Christians (or pseudo-Christians) came there, as they had done almost everywhere Christianity then-existed, & told the gentiles that, in order to be REALLY saved, they must follow the Jewish worship traditions, including Sabbath-keeping. But Paul, on authority from Jesus, told them otherwise, as we see in the above Scripture.

  My "take" is this: If you feel you should keep the Sabbath, by all means, follow your conscience, but if you believe otherwise, follow your conscience as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

"...could you point out the particular wording in the verses above which move you to see the issue of diets?"


No, not in the 2 verses when taken alone and not surrounded by the context of the chapter.    

However, the context of the chapter from beginning to end deals with the issue of the eating of animal food versus vegetables along with the related practice of fasting on certain days. 

Verse 20 sums up the intent of the chapter:  "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food."
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

No...... no it doesn't say that.

It says this:

Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, rstrats said:

No, not in the 2 verses when taken alone and not surrounded by the context of the chapter.    

However, the context of the chapter from beginning to end deals with the issue of the eating of animal food versus vegetables along with the related practice of fasting on certain days. 

Verse 20 sums up the intent of the chapter:  "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food."

Indeed, the primary issue about being a "stumbling block" in Romans 14 is that of diet (as per verses 2, 3, 6, 15, 17, 20, 21).

However, it appears to me that a secondary issue is also referenced concerning days (as per verses 5, 6).

From your comments above it appears that you are viewing this reference to days as a reference to "fasting on certain days."  However, I see NO reference to the idea of fasting in the chapter at all.  Could you point out the particular wording anywhere in the chapter which moves you to the idea of fasting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...