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DaveW

Sabbath Worship?

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On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2014 at 8:04 PM, DaveW said:


Now there are other passages that show that these Christians met on all sorts of days, but the Bible is quite plain that organised meetings were absolutely definitely held on Sundays.

Actually, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a worship service or day of rest.  And it couldn't have been in recognition of the resurrection because at that time they didn't even believe that the resurrection had taken place.  

The Acts reference has them together very likely because Paul happened to be in town and he wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The "breaking of bread" could simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated - but to dividing loaves of bread for a meal. "It means to partake of food and is used of eating as in a meal...... The readers [of the original New Testament letters and manuscripts] could have had no other idea or meaning in their minds" (E.W.Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 839,840.
 

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On 2/9/2018 at 3:43 AM, rstrats said:

Actually, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a worship service or day of rest.  And it couldn't have been in recognition of the resurrection because at that time they didn't even believe that the resurrection had taken place.  

The Acts reference has them together very likely because Paul happened to be in town and he wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The "breaking of bread" could simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated - but to dividing loaves of bread for a meal. "It means to partake of food and is used of eating as in a meal...... The readers [of the original New Testament letters and manuscripts] could have had no other idea or meaning in their minds" (E.W.Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 839,840.
 

And yet, there are NO references to believers gathering an other day for the purpose of corporate worship. The reference in Acts 20 indicates, in the context, that this was a common thing, to meet and break bread on the first day-Paul happened to be there then, and met with them. And since they met 'to break bread', this more likely refers to the Lord's Supper. Everything about the reference indicates this was an assembly of believers for worship. 

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43 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

And yet, there are NO references to believers gathering an other day for the purpose of corporate worship. The reference in Acts 20 indicates, in the context, that this was a common thing, to meet and break bread on the first day-Paul happened to be there then, and met with them. And since they met 'to break bread', this more likely refers to the Lord's Supper. Everything about the reference indicates this was an assembly of believers for worship. 

I agree, but nowhere as far as I can see is that they used the 1st day as a day if rest,  Not to say they didn't, but I don't think it says so,  

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:02 PM, Ukulelemike said:

 (see below)


re:  "And yet, there are NO references to believers gathering an other day for the purpose of corporate worship."
 
Nor are there any indisputable references to believers gathering on the first day of the week for the purpose of corporate worship.
 
 
 
 
re: "The reference in Acts 20 indicates, in the context, that this was a common thing, to meet and break bread on the first day..."
 
How does the context show that it was common to observe the Lord's Supper on every first day of the week?
 
And again,  The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated - but to dividing loaves of bread for a meal. "It means to partake of food and is used of eating as in a meal...... The readers [of the original New Testament letters and manuscripts] could have had no other idea or meaning in their minds" (E.W.Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 839,840." 
 
But even if it did always mean the Lord's Supper, Acts 2:46 says that the believers broke bread every day which removes any special importance with regard to the first day of the week. 
 
Also, a further explanation taken from B Ward Powers’ First Corinthians - An Exegetical and Explanatory Commentary: 
 
"The expression 'the breaking of bread' found in Acts 2 was commonly used amongst the Jews to refer to the sharing of a meal in conscious religious fellowship, and this usage is found in the New Testament, not least in the Gospel by the same author as Acts and even elsewhere in the Acts."
 
"The significance of the religious aspect of the breaking of bread would be greatly heightened for the disciples in the light of the Last Supper, but this is not the same as saying that they held a ritual meal deliberately re-enacting the Last Supper in ­conscious obedience to the command of Christ, commemorating his death through eating bread and drinking a cup; and these features would be necessary if we are to regard the 'breaking of bread' as equating with the Lord’s Supper."
 
"Rather, the evidence indicates that in the New Testament the expression 'the breaking of bread' or 'broke bread' refers to the usual Jewish practice of prayer with which a hunger-satisfying meal commenced. When we recognize that references to the breaking of bread are not references to the Lord’s Supper, we see the significance of what we learn from Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians."
 
Edited by rstrats

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It is to my dismay that most churches forget the true purpose of why there are even local churches at all to begin with regardless of what day they decide to assemble on. The key thing is the PURPOSE of assembly: teaching and learning the truth and the mutual encouragement which comes from sharing the truth.  Since most local churches do not teach the truth as their reason for existing -- and in fact for the most part what little they do teach is usually either wrong or seriously flawed -- it doesn't matter if they meet Sunday or Saturday or every day.  For most, Paul's stricture against the Corinthians applies: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse." (1 Cor.11:17; cf. Is.1:11-12; Amos 5:21; Mal.1:10).

Edited by (Omega)
Grammer and words

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On 2/13/2018 at 11:35 PM, Ukulelemike said:

I agree: there was no "Christian" Sabbath

I think Acts 14 demonstrates that Paul did much preaching in the synagogues on the sabbath. He certainly built churches on the sabbath. Maybe Saturday should be "soul-winning day".

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1 hour ago, BobbyH said:

I think Acts 14 demonstrates that Paul did much preaching in the synagogues on the sabbath. He certainly built churches on the sabbath. Maybe Saturday should be "soul-winning day".

Hmmmmmm - I wonder why Paul preached in the Synagogues on the Sabbath?

He absolutely did - in fact it was his manner.....

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

So why did Paul choose to preach to the Jews in the Synagogue on the Sabbath and not some other day?

How many people would he be preaching to on say a Friday?

Or a Tuesday?

Paul's manner, his normal way of things, was to go to the Jews first in every town he went to, and to preach in the Synagogue. The people gathered at the Synagogue on the Sabbath day.

So Paul preached in the Synagogues when there were people in them. 

Something I hinted at, but not state plainly in my first post is that a church can meet on any day, but it cannot be commanded to meet on the Sabbath.

ANY DAY is a good day to worship the Lord.

There are however examples of churches meeting on the first day of the week - specifically mentioning the first day of the week.

There are NO OTHER days are specifically mentioned, although the Bible does say things like "daily".

If we would choose a single day to hold our regular church services, all the weight falls upon Sunday as the first day.

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Fact:   No where does scripture say that anyone met on the 1st day of the week for rest and worship, much less that they did it on a recurring basis.  

Fact:  No where does scripture ever say that the Sabbath commandment was rescinded.  

Seems as far as scripture in concerned that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo didn't remain in place. 
 

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Fact: the ONLY day that is specifically mentioned as having a church service OF ANY SORT, is the first day.

That DOESN'T mean that a church service HAS to be on the first day. In fact there are references to churches meeting daily, so apparently ANY DAY is OK to have a church service.

But there is another FACT: Nowhere is it commanded to have a church service on the Sabbath day.

If certain people want to ignore what the Bible says about meetings happening on the first day, then that is their right, but you cannot force a Christian to observe the Sabbath day and you cannot restrict the chosen day of worship from being the first day of the week.

A church should meet on whatever day suits them the best - regardless of what some people say, there is INDICATION that the first day of the week was a day that some churches met on, so if you want to follow their example, then go right ahead.

Traditionally it was convenient to meet on a Sunday because the majority of western nations recognised it as a day for church, and since there is no biblical prohibition against it, Sunday is as good as any other day.

Fact: God gave commandment about this matter:

Col 2:16-17
(16)  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(17)  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Meet whatever day you like for church, but do not judge those who do not keep the Sabbath as YOU want them to.

Bible folks..... it is kinda important to read it.


 

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DaveW,
re:  "Fact: the ONLY day that is specifically mentioned as having a church service OF ANY SORT, is the first day. That DOESN'T mean that a church service HAS to be on the first day. In fact there are references to churches meeting daily, so apparently ANY DAY is OK to have a church service."

And that is all I'm trying to point out; that as far as scripture is concerned, there is nothing special about the 1st day of the week. I think there may be some who think that scripture says that there is.  

 re:  "...FACT: Nowhere is it commanded to have a church service on the Sabbath day."

Again, I was merely pointing out that scripture is silent with regard to a repeal of the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC).  
 

Edited by rstrats

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9 hours ago, rstrats said:

Fact:   No where does scripture say that anyone met on the 1st day of the week for rest and worship, much less that they did it on a recurring basis.  

Fact:  No where does scripture ever say that the Sabbath commandment was rescinded.  

Seems as far as scripture in concerned that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo didn't remain in place. 
 

I beg to differ.

First, you are trying to make your own facts, using your own reasoning, to make a forced interpretation. You are judging us by your own two "facts." Whether or not there is a scripture verse, as you say, "rescinding" worshipping on the Sabbath day is immaterial to the saints in the New Testament church.

Also, It seems to me that you are making it an issue, and judging us, to require the New Testament saint to worship on the Jewish Sabbath: Saturday, the sixth day. And, to state that the "status quo" is still in place. To me, this is a forced interpretation, an error, not binding on any saint, and is against the words of Paul the Apostle in Colossians 2:16

Did not Paul plainly state, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." Colossians 2:16

Like the Seventh Day Adventists, it seems to me that you are forcing your own interpretations on the Sabbath issue and judging those who do not worship on the Sabbath.

 

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10 hours ago, rstrats said:

Seems as far as scripture in concerned that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo didn't remain in place. 

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

Again, I was merely pointing out that scripture is silent with regard to a repeal of the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC).  

As Alan pointed out just above, this is incorrect.  Colossians 2:16-17 states, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moons, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."  This New Testament passage speaks concerning a series of subjects that existed under the Old Testament Law --

1.  Meat requirements.
2.  Drink requirements.
3.  Holyday requirements.
4.  New moon (sacrifice) requirements.
5.  Sabbath day requirements.

This passage teaches us the following about these subjects that existed under the Old Testament Law --

1.  No New Testament believer is to be judged in relation to these matters.  (Thus they are NOT a New Testament requirement.)
2.  These Old Testament matters were only a SHADOW of things to come in the New Testament.  (Thus they were to be replaced by the New Testament reality.)
3.  The body of Christ (the church) has now come as the New Testament reality.  (Thus the New Testament church, having come, has now replaced the Old Testament shadow.)

________________________________________________________

Concerning the first day of the week, Sunday --

1.  Our Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week, Sunday, making it the day to represent the new life of the new covenant and of the New Testament church.
2.  The first day of the week, Sunday, was the day directly chosen by the God the Father & God the Son upon which to send forth the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and thereby to empower the New Testament church. (For the Day of Pentecost is and always has been on a Sunday.)
3.  Acts 20:7 specifically mentions the first day of the week, Sunday, as the day "when the disciples [New Testament believers] came together to break bread [most likely a reference to the celebration of the Lord's Supper]."
4.  In 1 Corinthians 16:2 the apostle Paul specifically instructed the New Testament church at Corinth to collect their financial offering "upon the first day of the week."
5.  Remember that the New Testament church is built upon the foundation of the New Testament apostles and prophets, "Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone," not upon the Old Testament law and prophets.

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Alan,
re:  "I beg to differ."

That of course is your prerogative.     I maintain my position, though. As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week. And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship.  

 

 

re:  "First, you are trying to make your own facts..."

They are not my facts.   They are the facts of scripture. See above. 

 

 

re:  "Whether or not there is a scripture verse, as you say, "rescinding" worshipping on the Sabbath day [and there isn't] is immaterial to the saints in the New Testament church."

Maybe, maybe not.   Look, I'm not saying that the moving of rest and worship from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week isn't a divinely approved change.  I'm only saying that there is nothing in scripture directing such a change. 

 

 

re:  "Also, It seems to me that you are making it an issue, and judging us, to require the New Testament saint to worship on the Jewish Sabbath: Saturday, the sixth day."

Actually, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.  And I'm not judging or requiring anything from anyone.  I'm merely pointing out what scripture does and doesn't say.     

 

 

re:  "And, to state that the 'status quo' is still in place.

I didn't say that.  I said that based on scripture it seems that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo has changed. 

 

 

re:  "To me , this is a forced interpretation, an error, not binding on any saint, and is against the words of Paul the Apostle in Colossians 2:16." 

It appears you are interpreting Paul to fit with your preconceived position with regard to the Sabbath.   

 

 

re:  "Did not Paul plainly state, 'Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.' Colossians 2:16"

 With regard to what with respect of the sabbath days?  

 

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1 hour ago, rstrats said:

...I maintain my position, though. As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week. And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship....Gathering on Sunday is not about "rest and worship" but rater primarily to fellowship and conduct the business of the church and the Great Commission teaching. Biblicly the only church service Jesus attended after his resurrection was the Sunday evening services...

...Look, I'm not saying that the moving of rest and worship from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week isn't a divinely approved change.  I'm only saying that there is nothing in scripture directing such a change....

...Actually, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.  And I'm not judging or requiring anything from anyone.  I'm merely pointing out what scripture does and doesn't say....

...I said that based on scripture it seems that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo has changed....

No one changed anything. Granted many have bad theology on this but biblically "Sabbath" is still the seventh day and "The Lord's Day" is still the first day of the week. Sabbath also is for those in the Israelite Covenant and was never mandated for the Gentiles.

 

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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:43 AM, rstrats said:

As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week.

1.  John 20:19 -- "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

2.  Acts 2:1 -- "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."  (Note: According to a Biblical understanding of schedule, the day of Pentecost was ALWAYS on the first day of the week, Sunday.)  (2nd Note: This was the very day hand-picked by God the Father and God the Son Themselves to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the New Testament church, the body of Christ.  In my own estimation, this FACT is the most significant New Testament reason for the assembling of a church body on Sunday.)

3.  Acts 20:7 -- "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

4.  1 Corinthians 16:2 -- "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
 

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:43 AM, rstrats said:

 And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship.  

I am not aware of any New Testament passage which indicates that the primary purpose for the assembling together of a New Testament church is for the purposes of "rest and worship."  Rather, the New Testament seems to emphasize that the primary purpose for the assembling together of a New Testament church is for edification and worship.  Now, the Hebrew word "sabbath" means "rest" (not "seventh"); and the Hebrew Sabbath days were indeed for "REST and worship."   However, this is NOT the case for the New Testament church.  Indeed, those things were "a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (See Colossians 2:16-17)  The shadow is now past; the body is now present.  I myself have no desire to return unto the SHADOW of the Old Testament.  Rather, I myself desire to walk in the present reality of the New Testament BODY.

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The Purpose of the Old Testament Sabbath:

1.  A day of rest through spiritual worship with and for the Lord.

Exodus 20:9-10 -- "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."

2.  One day in every seven to be hallowed unto the Lord.

Exodus 20:11 -- "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

3.  A sign between the Lord and the children of Israel concerning the Lord's sanctifying work upon them.

Exodus 31:13 -- "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."

4.  A sign and seal of the perpetual covenant between the Lord and the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16-17 -- Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

_________________________________________________

However, as a New Testament believer I am not a member of the Old Testament/Covenant.  When our Lord Jesus Christ brought in the beginnings of the New Testament/Covenant, He did not intend simply to put a new patch upon the old. (See Matthew 9:16-17)  Rather, He intended to establish a new body. (See Ephesians 2:11-22)  This is the Biblical mystery concerning the New Testament church. (See Ephesians 3:1-12)  Even so, the SHADOW of things to come are now past; and the New Testament body of Christ is now present. (See Colossians 2:16-17)  For the children of Israel, the Sabbath day looks back to the creation, their deliverance from Egypt, and the sanctifying covenant of Sinai.  For the New Testament believer, gathering on Sunday looks back to the resurrection of Christ, the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and the establishment of the New Testament body of Christ.

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Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "John 20:19..."
First time.

 

 

re:  "Acts 20:7..."
Second time. 

 

 

re:  "Acts 2:1..."
When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1 st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings.

 

 

re:  "1 Corinthians 16:2..."
Nothing is said about anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week.  
 

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Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "For the New Testament believer, gathering on Sunday looks back to the resurrection of Christ..."

 

Just so it's understood that scripture is silent with regard to anyone getting together in observance or celebration of the resurrection.  
 

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