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Donald

A Question About Ifbs

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I became an independent fundamental Baptist, from a different direction than most people, so I am not as informed as most of you are, about it’s structure.
My question is, how predominantly is “the Jack Hyles factor”, embedded in the IFB.

The crowd of IFB’s that I am now involved with, look up to him(his memory and ministry), as the apex of all IFB endeavors.  Regularly quoting him and talking about His Church, as the greatest thing, this side of heaven.  While I, feel differently about him and his ministry.

At this point, I should point out that I have never visited his Church nor listened to a single message he preached; But his “name” and his method of ministry is so imbedded in the fabric of every IFB pastor that I have heard preach over the last few years, that it is not difficult to discern the kind of ministry Jack Hyles had.

My take on Jack Hyles, is that he made “soul winning”(at all cost), his most important objective. Now on the surface this may seem like a solidly Biblical view, but it has led to an emphases on things like “tugging at heart strings” at the sacrifice of “Scriptural honesty”.
Years ago(my first exposure to other IFB’s), I visited a Church during a revival service and was shocked at the dishonesty that I witnessed.

There were several examples of dishonesty displayed during that service, but the one that bothered me the most, was during the message from the pulpit: The “preacher” clearly misinterpreted a key passage in his message, without apology or explanation. After the service, as I was talking to him, I called him on his mistake; And without hesitation he smiled and said, “I know that what I said wasn’t true, but it tugs at heart strings”!

After having been an IFB pastor for about 15 years(in an isolated state), this was my first encounter with “main stream” fundamental Baptist teachings. At the time I didn’t think that it was main stream, but now after two years of living in the Bible belt(Church belt), I am being convinced that every other IFB pastor has this same attitude about twisting Scripture, to bring God’s people to where we think they aught to be.

I am being more and more convinced, that “my ministry” should emphasize the “I” in IFB. Even though I see the importance of soul winning(and practice it daily), I see a greater importance in honesty and Scriptural integrity and above all unyielding obedience to the LORD.
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I think what prompted this thread, was my daily Bible study and how yesterday I came to Ezekiel chapter 20. As I studied down to verse 28 my heart was broken when I saw how the Lord feels about our disobedience. And then when I came to verse 31-ff I started to see how any main stream Christian organization, can become so enamored with itself, that they don’t even realize that the Lord has stopped listening to them.
 

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Wow, that's pretty bad. Up here, and in the churches I'm personally familiar with in the States (our 'circles', I guess) we do not think much of Hyles or his methods. He isn't generally mentioned much at all, and only in a negative sense when he is.

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There are a lot of churches which are in the "Hyles camp", some worse than others, At the same time, depending upon where one is, there are also many IFB churches which reject Hylism. It's a real shame, but there are more than a few pastors who think part of their job is to "help God" when it comes to soul winning and other things. They find no problem in lying or doing things their own way since they believe it gets better and faster results than if they were to actually follow the Bible. Such should be avoided.

 

Then there are those who try to straddle the fence, which some in the "Sword camp" fall into. They speak against thinks like "quick prayerism" but then they speak of Hyles as if he were akin to Moses and some point to him as a model to follow in soul winning. Not a consistent stance at all.

 

Yes, sad to say, but even among IFB churches one has to be careful, and Scripture warns of such and tells us to check all preaching by the Word of God.

 

Around here the main problem isn't IFB churches following Hyles, it's their following the worldly churches. Within the span of about a decade they have all made drastic turns away from traditional fundamentalism. They've changed their Bibles, music, dress standards, separation standards, stances on church/state and a host of other things.

 

Whatever the name of the church, before entering pray for wisdom, discernment and understanding, then be sure the sermon preached is in accord with Scripture.

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Jack Hyles was a big player in independent fundamentalism and many churches and missions are connected to his ministry. I wouldn't have met my wife if it wasn't for the ministry under Jack Hyles. In a large ministry there will be negatives ... but for the most part he was biblical (comparatively and in my opinion). Christianity in general, it seems, has become careless with the word of God ... on the other hand there are too many that think they are right and everyone else is wrong ... most of them must be wrong.

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The answer to my situation may be, the fact that Jack Hyles had a university associated with his Church, where hundreds of “preacher boys” were sent for training, over the last 25 years or so.  Therefore they have an association with one another in such a way, that every visiting preacher/pastor that fills a particular pulpit, may come from the same background.  Therefore for some of us he(Jack Hyles), may seem like a bigger deal than others.

I wouldn’t disassociate with someone simply because they came out of this background; Just as I wouldn’t favor someone who did. All that should matter to us, is their RESPECT for the Word of God!
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Thanks to all, for answering my question.
I am encouraged to see that the errors that I have been seeing, are not as widespread as I first thought; But I am discouraged, to hear that there are just as many IFB Churches that are in error, in the other direction(modernism etc.)

 

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In this fallen world all we do becomes corrupted. IFBs have been around over a century now so while it's sad to see I suppose we really shouldn't be surprised to see corruption has worked its way in.

 

As we look back over the course of time we can see how this has played out again and again. True, biblical Christians stand together and then corruption enters and eventually there is separation between those remaining true and the corrupted. IFBs came out from the churches they were in due to corruption. Today we see some IFB churches adding qualifiers to their name in order to distinguish themselves from those IFB churches turning away from traditional IFB stances.

 

May we be in prayer for our churches, calling upon the Lord to protect our churches from corruption and to help us keep our hearts right with the Lord.

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John is right about the "camps."  It is sad that IFB's have resorted to this.  I am just so blessed to be saved out of the RCC, that I try to see the good in all IFB pastors.  I "Eat the watermellon and spit out the seeds."   I also became familiar with Jack Hyles when I was on this forum over six years ago.  My pastor's dad (my first pastor) doesn't like the fact that men of God put their name on their church buildings.  It is not their church, it belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ.  He preached yesterday, and he mentioned this again.  Although, he did talk about Joel Osteen which is an entirely different thing, as Osteen is a motivational pastor, and prosperity gospel preacher.

When I attended another IFB church several years ago, for four years, I went to a woman's conference at First Baptist in Hammond, Indiana.  Jack Schapp preached.  It was wonderful.  I have also read a few of Cindy Schapps books.  I don't wish to engage in what happened with Schapp, though.  The Holy Spirit was truly moving at that conference.  Anyway, I led mom mom to the Lord in 2006, with what I learned at that conference.  Although, she was already being spiritually drawn to Christ.   Schapp stood on the KJB and I learned a lot.  I have also attended Fairhaven Baptist, HC's church and where kitagrl's husband graduated from.  I loved it!  I know the man who has the school for the children at Fairhaven.  His parents used to go to my church.

 

That is my  :twocents: on Jack Hyles.

 

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John is right about the "camps."  It is sad that IFB's have resorted to this.  I am just so blessed to be saved out of the RCC, that I try to see the good in all IFB pastors.  I "Eat the watermellon and spit out the seeds."   

 

...but eventually someone might choke on those seeds. I believe God may use some men in spite of themselves, but that does not negate the damage the do to many others. How many have a false profession of salvation because of Hyles' "soulwinning" methods? How many other are jaded from the hypocrisy they observed when they were baptized 3 times as a bus kid in his 'ministry' just to add to the numbers? What damage has been done to the cause of Christ (and shame to the name IFB) because of evil men like Schapp, not to mention the evil done to their victims? What about the men who have been defeated morally because of what they saw Hyles get away with?  Just cause they may have had some doctrines right - well, frankly, giving lip service to Bible doctrine doesn't mean a thing when their actions so pointedly prove that their heart is far from God.

I quoted you, candlelight, but I'm not attacking you. I just wanted to point out the danger in trying to only see the good in men that are not good. I'm fairly new to IFB myself, and I don't like seeing the bad parts either! Although IFB isn't a denomination - it's individual churches - so just cause one's bad doesn't mean the next one is. Guess I get a little hot under the collar when I think of the damage caused by some of these vaunted names in IFBdom and how so many people just seem to ignore the problem because "oh, they're such a great man of God." No, definitively, positively NO, they're NOT great men of God. They are more akin to the filthy dreamers of Jude.

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Therein lies much of the problem. The attitude that there are "great men of God" instead of "men of a great God".  None of us are great, and all of us (Christians) need to defer to the fact that but for the grace of God we all can fail.  A verse that has stuck with me for literally years is 2 Chron. 12:14:

 

 

And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

Sin doesn't jump out and grab us by the throat. It happens because we don't prepare our hearts to seek the Lord. It happens because we are

"drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin..."

 

As we neglect to prepare our hearts to seek the Lord, temptations come from our own lusts. And then we give in to them...and thus sin.

 

It is a sad thing when folk defend anyone who has been exposed as a person who presents the truths of God's Word and yet declines to live by them (regardless of any good that has been done).  Romans tells us that is wrong, so how on earth can we defend it?

 

 

 

Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?  Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?  

 

 

What on earth are we doing by putting men - men - on a pedestal?  That, I believe is one of the biggest sins of modern Christianity. Yes, IFB has a lot of that kind of stuff. But, so too, do other groups of believers.  It is in the nature of man to want to worship.  But all too often our worship is of the creature (the preacher) rather than the Creator.

 

I'm not naming names - because the list is, sadly, long.  And there are people on this forum whose lives have been impacted for good by many whose names would be on the list (mine included).  But that does not excuse their disobedience to God's Word. We do Christianity and the cause of Christ wrong by defending them (especially when we give the impression - or come right out and say - that their good outweighs their bad...such an unscriptural, man-worshiping concept).

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...but eventually someone might choke on those seeds. I believe God may use some men in spite of themselves, but that does not negate the damage the do to many others. How many have a false profession of salvation because of Hyles' "soulwinning" methods? How many other are jaded from the hypocrisy they observed when they were baptized 3 times as a bus kid in his 'ministry' just to add to the numbers? What damage has been done to the cause of Christ (and shame to the name IFB) because of evil men like Schapp, not to mention the evil done to their victims? What about the men who have been defeated morally because of what they saw Hyles get away with?  Just cause they may have had some doctrines right - well, frankly, giving lip service to Bible doctrine doesn't mean a thing when their actions so pointedly prove that their heart is far from God.

I quoted you, candlelight, but I'm not attacking you. I just wanted to point out the danger in trying to only see the good in men that are not good. I'm fairly new to IFB myself, and I don't like seeing the bad parts either! Although IFB isn't a denomination - it's individual churches - so just cause one's bad doesn't mean the next one is. Guess I get a little hot under the collar when I think of the damage caused by some of these vaunted names in IFBdom and how so many people just seem to ignore the problem because "oh, they're such a great man of God." No, definitively, positively NO, they're NOT great men of God. They are more akin to the filthy dreamers of Jude.

 

I didn't know about Hyles and all of that, Salyan.  I just mentioned "camps", b/c that was back when the Ruckmanites were on OB.  I did think it was the biggest IFB church I had ever been in, though.  No wonder so many IFB churches are into numbers.  Well, my church certainly isn't, with only 40 adults in attendance.  ;)  Thankfully, my mom was hearing the gospel since 1998, attended some services and many fellowships.  She read the KJV and loved her devotional books, too.  We talked about the Word of God all the time.

 

I know that, Salyan.  I really have a problem with men being worshiped.  As we know, the Lord Jesus Christ should be given all the praise, honor and glory due to Him not men. 

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I actually came from some of more Hyles-ish churches, though, while I knew of him, I never knew of the various issues and conflicts. It was actually under his preaching that I took the step and surrendered to full-time service.

 

It was later that I began to hear about the various issues about him and his ministry, and while he himself seemed to repel any negative effects like he was scotch-guarded, it seemes his activities came home to roost on his son and son-in-law, who it seems tried the same things he was accused of, (which I can't personally speak to), but they fell to the consequences.  

 

Like you, Donald, I have found the "I" to be of absolute importance in being an IFB. I also preach, for coming up 12 years now, in a very isolated place, so fortunately no one else knows of any of this and all the IFB they know is what I have taught them, and I agree: biblical veracity and truth, even to the point of unpopularity, is absolutely vital in serving the Lord.

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