Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Proverbs 20:1 is NOT about drinking responsibly! It is a warning, admonishing people of God not to be deceived by alcohol. Since Jeffrey does not understand that, it is clear the alcohol has already deceived him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1John2:15-17 Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Advocating and/or implying use of alcohol is ok (along with other sins of the world) reminds me of something I heard a pastor say once. Said that people who are supposedly saved and continue to dabble in worldly sins sometimes profess the false doctrine of "I'm in God's permissive will," that I have the freedom to sin in an attempt to justify their "pet" sin(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted February 7, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 7, 2014 How about if we leave the accusations and pejoratives out of the thread?  Let's just discuss this and learn from each other.  We can be firm in scripture and yet unkind in proclaiming it. We can also be sarcastic and unkind to each other, no matter the "side" we are on.  But let's not. Let's all take the higher road and discuss what scripture says rather than resort to snarky comments to and about each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Glory Land Posted February 7, 2014 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 What am I doing LuAnne that is sinful , but right in my own eyes? Â Â Â Can you pass me the butter please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GraceSaved Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Â Can you pass me the butter please. Are you enjoying this? Â Ha ha! Â :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Then what is? Drunkeness is sin, I agree. Drinking isn't, there's a difference. Eating isn't a sin, gluttony is. Sex isn't a sin, sex with someone other than your spouse is. You see the point? At the wedding at Cana, if you take your understanding that the people there were drunk because they had got drunk on all the wine, then isn't Jesus adding to their sinfulness if He produces alcoholic wine? That would mean that the first miracle of Jesus was precisely for the purpose of promoting sinfulness - promoting drunkenness. That is against the character of my Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jeffrey, in the interest of contexual integrity, Psalm 104:15 does not advocate that drinking is to make one's face shine.  The context is showing us what God has given us. Verse 14 states "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth:"  The entire Psalm is extolling the majesty and goodness of God.  Verse 15 says: "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart."  It is the oil that makes man's face shine (likely olive oil, since that was/is the predominate oil there), not wine.   Just wanted to clear up a contextual issue.  And how would wine gladden the heart? Is it speaking of fermentation? If it is, then we have to look at Proverbs (realizing that neither Psalms nor Proverbs are doctrinal books, but rather wisdom books) and see that God says not to even look on wine when it's fermented - a specific condition of yayin (the word used for wine in both passages).  Hmmm - seems there is a contradiction in God's Word, then.  Is there?  Of course not.  The yayin that is described in Proverbs 23 is what we call alcoholic wine.  All three phrases that are used specifically point to wine that has fermented.  If every instance of yayin was talking about wine that had completely fermented, there would be no need for God to point out that there is yayin that we aren't even to look at...  As to "make glad", did you know that the same Hebrew word that is translated "make glad" is also used in verse 104:31 where it says, "the LORD shall rejoice in his works"?  I don't think God is feeling a buzz...  In the reading of Psalm 104, verse 15 points out that oil makes the face shine, bread strengthens the heart, and wine makes the heart glad. Reading it as written gives the idea of quenching thirst, not getting a buzz.  Claiming that the yayin in this verse means alcoholic (keeping in mind God's prohibition of looking at it while fermented) is reading into the text rather than just reading it...  As to Deut. 14:26, check out Bibliotheca Sacra Article 5.  It has some interesting points (it was written in 1880) especially in regards to tirosh, shekhar, shakar, and yayin.  (the context is fresh harvest...fresh, not fermented). LuAnne, I stand corrected I misquoted the verse and you are right, but when I get home tonight I am going to discuss your post because it hits on a lot of points I want to get to, Once again thank you for your correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 At the wedding at Cana, if you take your understanding that the people there were drunk because they had got drunk on all the wine, then isn't Jesus adding to their sinfulness if He produces alcoholic wine? That would mean that the first miracle of Jesus was precisely for the purpose of promoting sinfulness - promoting drunkenness. That is against the character of my Lord. 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. No, I think they blew through all the wine and we're running out And if you think that is not the character of your Lord, you have to decide who you are following. Because if you create a god in your own image, the Jesus of the Bible can be downright scandalous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 7, 2014 Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jeffrey, in the interest of contexual integrity, Psalm 104:15 does not advocate that drinking is to make one's face shine. The context is showing us what God has given us. Verse 14 states "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth:" The entire Psalm is extolling the majesty and goodness of God. Verse 15 says: "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." It is the oil that makes man's face shine (likely olive oil, since that was/is the predominate oil there), not wine. Just wanted to clear up a contextual issue. And how would wine gladden the heart? Is it speaking of fermentation? If it is, then we have to look at Proverbs (realizing that neither Psalms nor Proverbs are doctrinal books, but rather wisdom books) and see that God says not to even look on wine when it's fermented - a specific condition of yayin (the word used for wine in both passages). Hmmm - seems there is a contradiction in God's Word, then. Is there? Of course not. The yayin that is described in Proverbs 23 is what we call alcoholic wine. All three phrases that are used specifically point to wine that has fermented. If every instance of yayin was talking about wine that had completely fermented, there would be no need for God to point out that there is yayin that we aren't even to look at... As to "make glad", did you know that the same Hebrew word that is translated "make glad" is also used in verse 104:31 where it says, "the LORD shall rejoice in his works"? I don't think God is feeling a buzz... In the reading of Psalm 104, verse 15 points out that oil makes the face shine, bread strengthens the heart, and wine makes the heart glad. Reading it as written gives the idea of quenching thirst, not getting a buzz. Claiming that the yayin in this verse means alcoholic (keeping in mind God's prohibition of looking at it while fermented) is reading into the text rather than just reading it... As to Deut. 14:26, check out Bibliotheca Sacra Article 5. It has some interesting points (it was written in 1880) especially in regards to tirosh, shekhar, shakar, and yayin. (the context is fresh harvest...fresh, not fermented). One last think LuAnne, I'm still investigating through some sources, and I'll delve a little deeper tonight, but the whole wine grape juice fiasco started in the 1800's and is pretty much an American teach which was imported around the world, I haven't found any church writings in early church history that held this position, but I am still investigating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swathdiver Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hey Jeffrey, you called my post ridiculous but failed to explain why. Â Please answer my question, do you not believe everything that was written in my post or? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Christian Liberty is defined in Galatians 5. Â Contrary to what liberals do, the scriptures say we are not free to live like the devil (verse 13) but by love to serve one another, obey the whole counsel of God and win the lost for Christ. Â Â I see there are some unlearned here who have a beloved enemy and that's too bad. And liberty from man made rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 So here's a question. Would it be ok to have a responsible drink in the church building? Perhaps while leaning on the altar or on the platform? Why or why not? Depends, what is the occasion? in the fellowship hall? sure. we dont have an altar or platform Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted February 8, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2014 I'm sorry, but even eiyh the different color fonts, I cant folliw those posts that are quoted and then quoted again. I'm old...it makes my eyes go cross...:O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeffrey Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Jeffrey, in the interest of contexual integrity, Psalm 104:15 does not advocate that drinking is to make one's face shine.  The context is showing us what God has given us. Verse 14 states "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth:"  The entire Psalm is extolling the majesty and goodness of God.  Verse 15 says: "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart."  It is the oil that makes man's face shine (likely olive oil, since that was/is the predominate oil there), not wine.   Just wanted to clear up a contextual issue. As I stated earlier, you are correct   And how would wine gladden the heart? Is it speaking of fermentation? If it is, then we have to look at Proverbs (realizing that neither Psalms nor Proverbs are doctrinal books, but rather wisdom books) and see that God says not to even look on wine when it's fermented - a specific condition of yayin (the word used for wine in both passages).  Hmmm - seems there is a contradiction in God's Word, then.  Is there?  Of course not.   Your right, no contradiction.  The yayin that is described in Proverbs 23 is what we call alcoholic wine.  All three phrases that are used specifically point to wine that has fermented.  If every instance of yayin was talking about wine that had completely fermented, there would be no need for God to point out that there is yayin that we aren't even to look at...  And yayin is also in Duet 14:26,Gen 9:21 when Noah Got drunk, Wine given to Melchizedek Gen 14:18,Dan 1:5 and many more,... please check it out  As to "make glad", did you know that the same Hebrew word that is translated "make glad" is also used in verse 104:31 where it says, "the LORD shall rejoice in his works"?  I don't think God is feeling a buzz..but it makes Him glad Judges 9:13. the verse uses cheereth, but it means glad  In the reading of Psalm 104, verse 15 points out that oil makes the face shine, bread strengthens the heart, and wine makes the heart glad. Reading it as written gives the idea of quenching thirst, not getting a buzz.  Claiming that the yayin in this verse means alcoholic (keeping in mind God's prohibition of looking at it while fermented) is reading into the text rather than just reading it...It's not a command from God, there is no thus sayeth,its a book of wisdom, It was written by Solomon. It's pretty evident that is what the Bible is saying, the verses make more sense when wine is taken into alcoholic content. because what your saying is that wine means one thing one way, and one thing in another. there is history of that teaching prior to the 1800's Temperance Movement  As to Deut. 14:26, check out Bibliotheca Sacra Article 5.  It has some interesting points (it was written in 1880) especially in regards to tirosh, shekhar, shakar, and yayin.  (the context is fresh harvest...fresh, not fermented). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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