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Balancing The Christian Life


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once again, i repeat, if you cant put chapter and verse to it, it's legalism. 

 

It's not legalism if there is a Biblical principle behind it... 

Where "thou shalt not" is not specifically expressed, Biblical principles make the standards. It's not legalism to follow the spirit of what the Bible has to say on certain subjects. 

 

THIS. YES.  There is so much more to Bible study and understanding then merely 'chapter and verse'. (Which, to be frank, I'm rather surprised at you for espousing, Jeffrey.  Usually people that don't like standards scoff at proof-texting.)  How huge would the Bible be if God included a specific command for every possible situation/choice?  Instead, He has revealed principles of Who He Is, who we should be, what pleases Him, etc. To insist only on 'chapter and verse' and not study out the Biblical principles applicable to any situation is a cop-out. It's trying to find an easy way around the Christian life. As NT believers, there are not a whole lot of set in stone 'thou shalls' or 'thou shall nots' for us to obey. But when we start looking at the principles - wow! All of sudden we discover that we are held to a greater standard than even the Jews under the law! It's the difference between 'thou shall not commit adultery' and 'whosoever looketh on a women to lust after her hath committed adultery already with her in his heart.

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It's not legalism if there is a Biblical principle behind it:
 
(I don't have the time to track down each Scripture reference but these should all be familiar; I'll get them later if you wish)
 
dress codes, all dress must be 4" below the knee - modesty (men aren't to wear women's clothes and vice versa; an uncovered thigh is nakedness; lust the same as adultery; providing an opportunity for someone to lust is a stumbling block)
 
don't go into a bar/alcohol - "come out from among them and be ye separate", Christian's shouldn't drink (many threads here on this one, we can talk about it privately or in a separate one if you like), stumbling block
 
movies/dancing - these seem more grey areas to me, but I haven't really looked into them much yet; I'd lean towards no for dancing the way it is currently done under the principles of modesty, abstain from fornication (added temptation due to how sexualized it is), etc.
 
Where "thou shalt not" is not specifically expressed, Biblical principles make the standards. It's not legalism to follow the spirit of what the Bible has to say on certain subjects. It's legalism to say something is ok because the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid it. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the definition of legalism works both ways.



Agree with you in dress
Disagree with alcohol, alcohol is a blessing from God but I am careful around certain believers
Movies/ dancing is an issue of conscience, my wife and I like to dance now and then, she likes to do it
And I agree with you in part in the last, but we should also be able to teach out weaker brother proper principles rather have them have everybody live by their own standards
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THIS. YES.  There is so much more to Bible study and understanding then merely 'chapter and verse'. (Which, to be frank, I'm rather surprised at you for espousing, Jeffrey.  Usually people that don't like standards scoff at proof-texting.)  How huge would the Bible be if God included a specific command for every possible situation/choice?  Instead, He has revealed principles of Who He Is, who we should be, what pleases Him, etc. To insist only on 'chapter and verse' and not study out the Biblical principles applicable to any situation is a cop-out. It's trying to find an easy way around the Christian life. As NT believers, there are not a whole lot of set in stone 'thou shalls' or 'thou shall nots' for us to obey. But when we start looking at the principles - wow! All of sudden we discover that we are held to a greater standard than even the Jews under the law! It's the difference between 'thou shall not commit adultery' and 'whosoever looketh on a women to lust after her hath committed adultery already with her in his heart.


Here's the thing, people do veiw the Bible as a set if rules rather than a Gods plan/story for His redemption of man. There are His commandments and people fail to see what Jesus did for us
Those rules I listed earlier were actually rules at a previous ministry I was involved in that sought performance over heart issues. If somebody wants to read a letter written to a first church and twist it into something it wasn't intended to and not let your conscience guide you from what God has showed you , don't put that yolk if bondage on me
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Agree with you in dress
Disagree with alcohol, alcohol is a blessing from God but I am careful around certain believers
Movies/ dancing is an issue of conscience, my wife and I like to dance now and then, she likes to do it
And I agree with you in part in the last, but we should also be able to teach out weaker brother proper principles rather have them have everybody live by their own standards

 

Here's the thing, people do veiw the Bible as a set if rules rather than a Gods plan/story for His redemption of man. There are His commandments and people fail to see what Jesus did for us
 

 

The real crux of the problem here is the failure to educate on why standards exist; which you alluded to. However, that does not negate the need for a standard. The individual believer is every bit as much responsible for understanding the reason for the standard as is the church educating them on it. If they have a question or disagree, they should taken it upon themselves to understand the issue or ask someone to teach them rather than rejecting the standard until the pastor gets around to preaching on it.

 

Example: Our church has the standard that anyone who maintains a ministry role (pastor, preaching, teaching, nursery, prison ministries, etc) must abstain from drinking alcohol. In order to serve in an official capacity they must adhere to the standard. If they affirm that they will adhere standard then there's no problem and it is assumed they agree. If they disagree or don't understand, it is the perfect time to express such and get it worked out rather than stomping away and crying legalism. As Christians we should be actively seeking to understand the mind of God on every issue that crosses our path. Failure to investigate something and attempt to gain understanding about what He does and does not want His people to do is a failure to love God and follow Him (John 14:15; see also Isaiah through Malachai and Matthew 5). Engaging in behavior contrary to God's will, even if it's out of ignorance due to a lack of effort to figure it out, is to spit on God's plan/story of redemption and what Jesus did for us (see Romans 6, 12:1-2, and 1 Cor 6).

 

If a reasonable argument can be made for a standard then it cannot be accurately called legalism. You may disagree with my reasoning and interpretation on having a standard for abstinence from alcohol (to be found here to jog your memory: ), but you absolutely cannot claim I am legalistic for it. Now...if someone were to simply say "you can't drink beer because it's the devil's poison!" and leaves it at that with no Biblical principle to support it, THAT is legalism. Having a standard based on Biblical principle is not regardless what anyone else thinks about the standard. Standards exist as a guidepost for staying on the right side of sin. Legalism exists for staying on the right side of someone's opinion.

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Here's the thing, people do veiw the Bible as a set if rules rather than a Gods plan/story for His redemption of man. There are His commandments and people fail to see what Jesus did for us
Those rules I listed earlier were actually rules at a previous ministry I was involved in that sought performance over heart issues. If somebody wants to read a letter written to a first church and twist it into something it wasn't intended to and not let your conscience guide you from what God has showed you , don't put that yolk if bondage on me

 

Jeffrey, you still haven't responded to the points made about basing things on Scriptural principles...

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Jeffrey, you still haven't responded to the points made about basing things on Scriptural principles...


Sorry, didn't get to my point in last post, still at work
Because certain principles, like alcohol, have different views which can be misconstrued into making laws out if things that weren't meant to be. Some people here( no mentioning names) use Proverbs as a law from God rather than what the book is, a book of wisdom. To clarify where someone stands, we need to know chapter and verse so we can see what is being communicated rather than being general and saying we are using principles that can vary from culture to culture.
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Biblical principles don't vary from culture to culture. That's a trap too many modern Christians fall into.  Biblical principles are biblical principles - culture should adapt to them rather than vice versa.  I realize that cultures differ, and they need to be understood by those living in them.  American Christianity, though, should not put aside biblical principle because African culture is different from American culture (and, yes, there are many Christians who try to justify doing or not doing something on the basis of "well, other cultures...".). To a Christian, Bible and biblical principle is first (now, please don't think I'm saying I worship a book. I worship the God of the Book...and He does say He holds His Word above His Name...), not culture.

 

I would agree that we need to know where in scripture our actions are based.  But there are enough principles in scripture that we cannot say it has to be "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not."

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Agree with you in dress
Disagree with alcohol, alcohol is a blessing from God but I am careful around certain believers
Movies/ dancing is an issue of conscience, my wife and I like to dance now and then, she likes to do it
And I agree with you in part in the last, but we should also be able to teach out weaker brother proper principles rather have them have everybody live by their own standards

 

Why do you believe that alcohol is a blessing from God, Jeffrey?  Is there a specific scripture or scriptures that says it is?  

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Biblical principles don't vary from culture to culture. That's a trap too many modern Christians fall into.  Biblical principles are biblical principles - culture should adapt to them rather than vice versa.  I realize that cultures differ, and they need to be understood by those living in them.  American Christianity, though, should not put aside biblical principle because African culture is different from American culture (and, yes, there are many Christians who try to justify doing or not doing something on the basis of "well, other cultures...".). To a Christian, Bible and biblical principle is first (now, please don't think I'm saying I worship a book. I worship the God of the Book...and He does say He holds His Word above His Name...), not culture.
 
I would agree that we need to know where in scripture our actions are based.  But there are enough principles in scripture that we cannot say it has to be "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not."

The Gospel transcends culture, how that is played out is a different story, have you ever been to an African American worship service? A lot different than a typical IFB service right ?
The fundamentals of faith do not change but people following Christ are different an Oriental group if believers will be inevitably different from an American sect of believers, and that is te problem with many American missionaries, they are trying to make American Christians out of the world
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The Gospel transcends culture, how that is played out is a different story, have you ever been to an African American worship service? A lot different than a typical IFB service right ?

 

The question I'd raise in that case is, is the African American worship service a reflection of how the gospel can freely play out in a different cultural setting, or is it a reflection of how the culture has negatively affected the worship of the Lord? (And, hey, isn't America their culture?)

When I was in Africa the church I attended (which has a national pastor) surprised me. We sang traditional hymns, usually without accompaniment - and we sang them slower than I've heard any church sing them before. I think I expected it to be more upbeat or at least have faster singing! So much for my expectations of African culture.

 

IMO, those stereotypical African American services are more a production of their association with modern godless culture than a necessary production of their racial heritage (sorry, couldn't think of a better way of putting that). They have more in common with seeker-sensitive, 'let's please the people' Western churches than they necessarily do with their African brethren who are seeking to do things decently and in order.

One more thing: in Cameroon, there're a lot of churches. All sorts and denominations. But most of them - including denominations that are generally doctrinally sound over here (like regular Baptist churches) - no longer teach the gospel. Some Pentecostal churches there are actively discouraged by their local towns because of their raucous, all-night parties that are somehow supposed to be part of their worship (it's totally not a religious persecution thing - it's more trying to keep the peace.) They are discouraged and shut down - but the good, solid Baptist churches that I visited are encouraged and welcomed by those same (non-Christian) officials. They are known for their good character and behavior. Crazy, wild churches are found the world over. Staid, sober churches may be found everywhere as well. There is no connection to culture - just the heart of man and the true gospel.

 

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The question I'd raise in that case is, is the African American worship service a reflection of how the gospel can freely play out in a different cultural setting, or is it a reflection of how the culture has negatively affected the worship of the Lord? (And, hey, isn't America their culture?)
When I was in Africa the church I attended (which has a national pastor) surprised me. We sang traditional hymns, usually without accompaniment - and we sang them slower than I've heard any church sing them before. I think I expected it to be more upbeat or at least have faster singing! So much for my expectations of African culture.
 
IMO, those stereotypical African American services are more a production of their association with modern godless culture than a necessary production of their racial heritage (sorry, couldn't think of a better way of putting that). They have more in common with seeker-sensitive, 'let's please the people' Western churches than they necessarily do with their African brethren who are seeking to do things decently and in order.
One more thing: in Cameroon, there're a lot of churches. All sorts and denominations. But most of them - including denominations that are generally doctrinally sound over here (like regular Baptist churches) - no longer teach the gospel. Some Pentecostal churches there are actively discouraged by their local towns because of their raucous, all-night parties that are somehow supposed to be part of their worship (it's totally not a religious persecution thing - it's more trying to keep the peace.) They are discouraged and shut down - but the good, solid Baptist churches that I visited are encouraged and welcomed by those same (non-Christian) officials. They are known for their good character and behavior. Crazy, wild churches are found the world over. Staid, sober churches may be found everywhere as well. There is no connection to culture - just the heart of man and the true gospel.


So your judging the African American are Godless? Because they fancy more or outgoing in their worshipping of God?
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