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Daniel & Revelation - The Indepth Study Thread, Bring Your Bibles Please.


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The long passages have nothing to do with "in depth" and everything to do with confusion.
The idea is, that with so much 'information' the false bits get lost amongst the true, and when questioned on a false portion, the false teacher simply slides to another issue.

It is a tactic which allows evasion and promotes confusion, and it is dressed up with 'spirituality'.

I have asked this gent several direct and simple questions in a few threads which have all been ignored because there is no room for evasion.

And he has also been into a few threads where he has not 'been invited'.

He won't go to that thread because he doesn't want to answer direct questions about SDA.

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About time for letter count!! O for the days when things were short, sweet and simple.

I don't do "in depth" SDA Bible studies.  Why would anyone want to do an "in depth" study from a cult?   When I want to do an "in depth" Bible study, I open my Bible and study. 

The analogy that Jesus used was that as a man being born physically is the beginning of his earthly life, so also a man must be born spiritually to have eternal life. Once he is born physically, he i

Daniel 1

 

And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god. Daniel 1:2

 

Jehoiakim, was once named Eliakim, before PharaohNechoh, the Egyptian King, had changed it:

 

And Pharaohnechoh made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in the room of Josiah his father, and turned his name to Jehoiakim, and took Jehoahaz away: and he came to Egypt, and died there. 2 Kings 23:34

 

And the king of Egypt made Eliakim his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem, and turned his name to Jehoiakim. And Necho took Jehoahaz his brother, and carried him to Egypt. 2 Chronicles 36:4

 

and he was the 3rd to the last ruler over Judah, and was 25 years old when he began to reign, reigning only 11 years:

 

Jehoiakim [was] twenty and five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Zebudah, the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah. 2 Kings 23:36

 

Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and all that he did, [are] they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah? 2 Kings 24:5

 

Jehoiakim [was] twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem: and he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD his God. 2 Chronicles 36:5

 

and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord:

 

And he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his fathers had done. 2 Kings 23:37

 

Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they [are] written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 36:8

 

God then, gave Jehoiakim into the hand of the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar [iI], as we have already seen:

 

Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters, to carry him to Babylon. 2 Chronicles 36:6

 

Nebuchadnezzar also carried of the vessels of the house of the LORD to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon. 2 Chronicles 36:7

 

Considering Daniel 1:2, we should take notice that this text reveals something very important about the judgment itself upon Israel [the peoples]. What did it involve? Transgression of the LORD God's Commandments, and “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4, for all “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” John 8:34, for “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” Romans 6:16.

 

The text reveals that God allowed only part of the vessels of the house of God” to be “carried into the land of Shinar [babylon] to the house of his god”, and even placed them “into the treasure house of his god”.

 

What very important piece of the Sanctuary/Temple is specifically missing from all of the materials that were then and later taken by Babylon? It is the Ark of God, which contained [Exodus 25:16,21; Deuteronomy 10:2,5] His Holy, Just and Good [Romans 7:12] & Spiritual [Romans 7:14] Law, the Ten Commandments [Exodus 24:38; Deuteronomy 4:13, 10:4].

 

It was foretold, that the Ark of God would not be visited again by them:

 

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more. Jeremiah 3:16

 

 

In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. Jeremiah 3:18

 

This is further revealed by the following texts, which demonstrate that which was later brought back out of the Babylonian captivity, by Cyrus the King, none of which ever includes the Ark of God:

 

Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods; Ezra 1:7

 

Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah. Ezra 1:8

 

And this [is] the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives, Ezra 1:9

 

Thirty basons of gold, silver basons of a second [sort] four hundred and ten, [and] other vessels a thousand. Ezra 1:10

 

All the vessels of gold and of silver [were] five thousand and four hundred. All [these] did Sheshbazzar bring up with [them of] the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem. Ezra 1:11

 

...

 

And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that [was] in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered unto [one], whose name [was] Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor; Ezra 5:14

 

And said unto him, Take these vessels, go, carry them into the temple that [is] in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be builded in his place. Ezra 5:15

 

 

And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which [is] at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which [is] at Jerusalem, [every one] to his place, and place [them] in the house of God. Ezra 6:5

 

Also I spake to the priests and to all this people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Hearken not to the words of your prophets that prophesy unto you, saying, Behold, the vessels of the LORD'S house shall now shortly be brought again from Babylon: for they prophesy a lie unto you. Jeremiah 27:16

 

Hearken not unto them; serve the king of Babylon, and live: wherefore should this city be laid waste? Jeremiah 27:17

 

But if they [be] prophets, and if the word of the LORD be with them, let them now make intercession to the LORD of hosts, that the vessels which are left in the house of the LORD, and [in] the house of the king of Judah, and at Jerusalem, go not to Babylon. Jeremiah 27:18

 

For thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the pillars, and concerning the sea, and concerning the bases, and concerning the residue of the vessels that remain in this city, Jeremiah 27:19

 

Which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took not, when he carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah from Jerusalem to Babylon, and all the nobles of Judah and Jerusalem; Jeremiah 27:20

 

Yea, thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, concerning the vessels that remain [in] the house of the LORD, and [in] the house of the king of Judah and of Jerusalem; Jeremiah 27:21

 

They shall be carried to Babylon, and there shall they be until the day that I visit them, saith the LORD; then will I bring them up, and restore them to this place. Jeremiah 27:22

 

The false prophet Hananiah also makes mention of these vessels of the house of the LORD:

 

Within two full years will I bring again into this place all the vessels of the LORD'S house, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place, and carried them to Babylon: Jeremiah 28:3

 

The Prophet Jeremiah briefly responds to the false prophet Hananiah:

 

Even the prophet Jeremiah said, Amen: the LORD do so: the LORD perform thy words which thou hast prophesied, to bring again the vessels of the LORD'S house, and all that is carried away captive, from Babylon into this place. Jeremiah 28:6

 

Also, we may see where more peoples and for more items were also carried off at various times by Babylon, see:

 

Also the pillars of brass that [were] in the house of the LORD, and the bases, and the brasen sea that [was] in the house of the LORD, the Chaldeans brake, and carried all the brass of them to Babylon. Jeremiah 52:17

 

The caldrons also, and the shovels, and the snuffers, and the bowls, and the spoons, and all the vessels of brass wherewith they ministered, took they away. Jeremiah 52:18

 

And the basons, and the firepans, and the bowls, and the caldrons, and the candlesticks, and the spoons, and the cups; [that] which [was] of gold [in] gold, and [that] which [was] of silver [in] silver, took the captain of the guard away. Jeremiah 52:19

 

The two pillars, one sea, and twelve brasen bulls that [were] under the bases, which king Solomon had made in the house of the LORD: the brass of all these vessels was without weight. Jeremiah 52:20

 

And [concerning] the pillars, the height of one pillar [was] eighteen cubits; and a fillet of twelve cubits did compass it; and the thickness thereof [was] four fingers: [it was] hollow. Jeremiah 52:21

 

And a chapiter of brass was upon it; and the height of one chapiter [was] five cubits, with network and pomegranates upon the chapiters round about, all [of] brass. The second pillar also and the pomegranates [were] like unto these. Jeremiah 52:22

 

And there were ninety and six pomegranates on a side; [and] all the pomegranates upon the network [were] an hundred round about. Jeremiah 52:23

 

 

This [is] the people whom Nebuchadrezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year three thousand Jews and three and twenty: Jeremiah 52:28

 

In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar he carried away captive from Jerusalem eight hundred thirty and two persons: Jeremiah 52:29

 

In the three and twentieth year of Nebuchadrezzar Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred forty and five persons: all the persons [were] four thousand and six hundred. Jeremiah 52:30

 

To know the exact whereabouts of the earthly Ark of God at this time, is not germane to this present study, but we may know that the earthly Ark is hid with God, still containing the Ten Commandments.

 

This earthly Ark and its contents were but made after the pattern of the True Heavenly ones:

 

According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it]. Exodus 25:9

And look that thou make [them]
after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount. Exodus 25:40

And this work of the candlestick [was of] beaten gold, unto the shAft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, [was] beaten work:
according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick. Numbers 8:4

All [this, said David],
the LORD made me understand in writing by [his] hand upon me, [even] all the works of this pattern. 1 Chronicles 28:19

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at
his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Ephesians 1:20

We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Hebrews 8:1

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2

Who serve
unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 8:5

But
Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands..." Hebrews 9:11;p

How much more shall the blood of
Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14

"...
the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23;p

 

The "earthly" tabernacle, "the tupos", the type or plan, being "patterned" after the "heavenly":

 

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Acts 7:44


And thou shalt rear up the tabernacle according to the fashion thereof which was shewed thee in the mount. Exodus 26:30

 

The earthly Tabernacle, and that which went with it, were merely the "patterns of things in the heavens" and says the Holy Scriptures, the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle, "which the Lord pitched and not man", "the heavenly things themselves" are greater:

 

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Hebrews 9:24


So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

"...
boldness to enter into the [sanctuary] by the blood of Jesus," Hebrews 10:19;p

For he
looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. Hebrews 11:10

"...
seven golden candlesticks;" Revelation 1:12;p

And in the midst of the
seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Revelation 1:13

"...
the seven golden candlesticks. ...: and the seven candlesticks..." Revelation 1:20;p

"...
who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" Revelation 2:1;p

"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee
an open door, and no man can shut it..." Revelation 3:8;p


"After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: ..." Revelation 4:1


"...seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." Revelation 4:5;p

...
stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. Revelation 8:3

"And
the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament..." Revelation 11:19;p

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things? John 3:12

 

Tupos = type, pattern. Strong's G5179 - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...?strongs=G5179

See also
Romans 5:14, Adam was the "figure" of Him who was to come.

 

See also 1 Corinthians 10:6,11 "ensample" is the tupos, of that which we are to learn from, the "pattern".

Skia = shadow, not the substance. Strong's G4639 - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4639&t=KJV

See also
Colossians 2:17, shadow of the types, see Hebrews 10:1

 

See also Hebrews 8:5, earthly priests and highpriests, but a type pointing to Christ Jesus own Priesthood and High Priesthood.

 

See also Hebrews 10:1, shadow of the types, see Colossians 2:17

AntiTupos = antitype, reality which is greater than the type/shadow. Strong's G499 - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...ngs=G499&t=KJV

See
Hebrews 9:24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

see also
1 Peter 3:21, “figure”.

 

To leave the earthly Ark of God, along with the Holy Law of God therein, in the hands of the uncircumcised of Heart [Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4] would result in terrible disasters upon them. God did not desire that Babylon be yet punished, since He was presently using them as the rod of punishment against His own rebellious peoples, and desired to show Babylon mercy, as He had for Egypt, that they might also repent:

 

Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Jeremiah 25:9

 

When the Ark of God was in the hands of such heathen/pagan nations, plagues had come:

And the messenger answered and said, Israel is fled before the Philistines, and there hath been also a great slaughter among the people, and thy two sons also, Hophni and Phinehas, are dead, and the ark of God is taken. 1 Samuel 4:17

 

And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years. 1 Samuel 4:18

 

And his daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, was with child, [near] to be delivered: and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her. 1 Samuel 4:19

 

And about the time of her death the women that stood by her said unto her, Fear not; for thou hast born a son. But she answered not, neither did she regard [it]. 1 Samuel 4:20

 

And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in law and her husband. 1 Samuel 4:21

And she said, The glory is departed from Israel: for the ark of God is taken. 1 Samuel 4:22

 

And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod. 1 Samuel 5:1

 

When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. 1 Samuel 5:2

 

And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon [was] fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again. 1 Samuel 5:3

 

And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon [was] fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands [were] cut off upon the threshold; only [the stump of] Dagon was left to him. 1 Samuel 5:4

 

Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day. 1 Samuel 5:5

 

But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, [even] Ashdod and the coasts thereof. 1 Samuel 5:6

 

And when the men of Ashdod saw that [it was] so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god. 1 Samuel 5:7

 

They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about [thither]. 1 Samuel 5:8

 

And it was [so], that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 5:9

 

Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And it came to pass, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, They have brought about the ark of the God of Israel to us, to slay us and our people. 1 Samuel 5:10

 

So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there. 1 Samuel 5:11

 

And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven. 1 Samuel 5:12

 

 

And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months. 1 Samuel 6:1

 

And the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners, saying, What shall we do to the ark of the LORD? tell us wherewith we shall send it to his place. 1 Samuel 6:2

 

And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but in any wise return him a trespass offering: then ye shall be healed, and it shall be known to you why his hand is not removed from you. 1 Samuel 6:3

 

Then said they, What [shall be] the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, [according to] the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague [was] on you all, and on your lords. 1 Samuel 6:4

 

Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land. 1 Samuel 6:5

 

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed? 1 Samuel 6:6

 

Now therefore make a new cart, and take two milch kine, on which there hath come no yoke, and tie the kine to the cart, and bring their calves home from them: 1 Samuel 6:7

 

And take the ark of the LORD, and lay it upon the cart; and put the jewels of gold, which ye return him [for] a trespass offering, in a coffer by the side thereof; and send it away, that it may go. 1 Samuel 6:8

 

And see, if it goeth up by the way of his own coast to Bethshemesh, [then] he hath done us this great evil: but if not, then we shall know that [it is] not his hand [that] smote us: it [was] a chance [that] happened to us. 1 Samuel 6:9

 

And the men did so; and took two milch kine, and tied them to the cart, and shut up their calves at home: 1 Samuel 6:10

 

And they laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods. 1 Samuel 6:11

 

And the kine took the straight way to the way of Bethshemesh, [and] went along the highway, lowing as they went, and turned not aside [to] the right hand or [to] the left; and the lords of the Philistines went after them unto the border of Bethshemesh. 1 Samuel 6:12

 

And [they of] Bethshemesh [were] reaping their wheat harvest in the valley: and they lifted up their eyes, and saw the ark, and rejoiced to see [it]. 1 Samuel 6:13

 

And the cart came into the field of Joshua, a Bethshemite, and stood there, where [there was] a great stone: and they clave the wood of the cart, and offered the kine a burnt offering unto the LORD. 1 Samuel 6:14

 

And the Levites took down the ark of the LORD, and the coffer that [was] with it, wherein the jewels of gold were, and put [them] on the great stone: and the men of Bethshemesh offered burnt offerings and sacrificed sacrifices the same day unto the LORD. 1 Samuel 6:15

 

And when the five lords of the Philistines had seen [it], they returned to Ekron the same day. 1 Samuel 6:16

 

And these [are] the golden emerods which the Philistines returned [for] a trespass offering unto the LORD; for Ashdod one, for Gaza one, for Askelon one, for Gath one, for Ekron one; 1 Samuel 6:17

 

And the golden mice, [according to] the number of all the cities of the Philistines [belonging] to the five lords, [both] of fenced cities, and of country villages, even unto the great [stone of] Abel, whereon they set down the ark of the LORD: [which stone remaineth] unto this day in the field of Joshua, the Bethshemite. 1 Samuel 6:18

 

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten [many] of the people with a great slaughter. 1 Samuel 6:19

 

And the men of Bethshemesh said, Who is able to stand before this holy LORD God? and to whom shall he go up from us? 1 Samuel 6:20

 

And they sent messengers to the inhabitants of Kirjathjearim, saying, The Philistines have brought again the ark of the LORD; come ye down, [and] fetch it up to you. 1 Samuel 6:21

 

And death came to those which handled the Ark of God not aright:

 

And they carried the ark of God in a new cart out of the house of Abinadab: and Uzza and Ahio drave the cart. 1 Chronicles 13:7

 

And David and all Israel played before God with all [their] might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. 1 Chronicles 13:8

 

And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 1 Chronicles 13:9

 

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God. 1 Chronicles 13:10

 

A few years later, the city of Jerusalem itself, would be razed to the ground by Babylon:

 

The LORD hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof. Lamentations 4:11

 

The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem. Lamentations 4:12

 

Israel [the peoples] would be in captivity, 70 years, for their sins, according to the Word of the LORD, for though we know that even though the LORD God is loving and merciful, long-suffering and forgiving; He will by no means clear the guilty:

 

And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. Exodus 34:5

 

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Exodus 34:6

 

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation]. Exodus 34:7

 

Thus, there are consequences in choosing to sin, and Israel [the peoples] were to go into captivity 70 years:

 

And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:11

 

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. Jeremiah 25:12

...

For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. Jeremiah 29:10

In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:2

Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh [month], even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me? Zechariah 7:5

 

Now, let us take careful notice that the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar [iI] placed all of the captured Temple treasures into the very treasure room of the temple of His own 'god'.

 

By doing this, he sought to show the glory and power of his own 'god' above that of the Hebrews, and God allows this shame to be manifested, so that Israel may see what sin brings – nakedness and shame:

 

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7

 

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself. Genesis 3:10

 

And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Genesis 3:11

 

 

And when Moses saw that the people [were] naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto [their] shame among their enemies:) Exodus 32:25

 

 

For the LORD brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the LORD. 2 Chronicles 28:19

 

 

So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with [their] buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. Isaiah 20:4

 

 

Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward. Lamentations 1:8

 

 

Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. Lamentations 4:21

 

 

These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her. Ezekiel 23:10

 

 

And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms. Ezekiel 23:29

 

 

Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst. Hosea 2:3

 

 

And [he that is] courageous among the mighty shall flee away naked in that day, saith the LORD. Amos 2:16

 

 

Behold, I [am] against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame. Nahum 3:5

 

 

And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about [his] naked [body]; and the young men laid hold on him: Mark 14:51

 

And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked. Mark 15:52

 

 

And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Acts 19:16

 

 

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Revelation 3:17

 

 

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Revelation 16:15

 

 

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Revelation 17:16

 

Thus we see that nakedness, reveals our shame and sin, even as Christ Jesus was naked upon the Cross:

 

And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. Matthew 27:35

 

 

And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. Mark 15:24

 

 

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

 

Jesus being made to be sin for us:

 

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

What lessons are we to learn from these things? Is there a Babylon in the World today? Yes, there is, and we shall come to that in a bit, but consider, that Israel [God's peoples, verily our brothers and sisters in a previous time], were now in captivity of Babylon for their sins and rejection of the counsels, reproof and instruction of God.

 

Today, there are also many captive to Babylon and her daughters. They are captive to her ways, captive to her styles of worship, captive to her modes of excitement, captive to her styles of music, captive to her modes of diet, captive to her ways of pleasure and rioting, etc.

 

Like Israel of old, these also do not want to leave when the time is come to be delivered, for they are too settled in their houses, in their ways, in their lives in Babylon, and will choose to stay in her... but there is a message verily today, even as then:

 

...Come out of her My people...” Revelation 18:4;p

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There is virtually no point in posting such exceedingly long postings.

 

Actually, if your point is so complicated you can't make it yourself in relatively easy to digest shorter postings, there is a good chance it's got problems.

 

If you want a real discussion, you need to post in a manner conducive to discussion. Your posts are long monologues which don't lend themselves to any meaningful discussion.

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There is virtually no point in posting such exceedingly long postings.

 

Actually, if your point is so complicated you can't make it yourself in relatively easy to digest shorter postings, there is a good chance it's got problems.

 

If you want a real discussion, you need to post in a manner conducive to discussion. Your posts are long monologues which don't lend themselves to any meaningful discussion.

If the indepth part is too lengthy for some, please just read through the non-Indented portions, for the Indented portions are the scriptural evidences of those.

 

Each text is being examined indepth.  If you have any further insights into the text, please feel free to add them.  :)

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Does this "in depth" study have a source?  Is this all your writings or are you quoting somebody else?  You need to give your source.

Every source which is not of my own study, work, etc will be cited directly.  Later in study, there will possibly be included historical sources other than the Scriptures.  At this point, only the Scriptural citations are not original with me.  Thank you for asking.  :)

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It is not "in depth" it is overcomplicated to cause confusion and bewilderment.

We used to have a saying when I was growing up: "If you can dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with with bulldust."

This guy is the latter rather than the former.

He constantly refuses to answer simple questions simply, and interjects with side issues so as not to answer those questions, or even to try to confuse other threads and subjects.

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Well if you would like, I can give a very brief over summary and structure of Daniel 1-7 and of 8-12. Would that be helpful?


I doubt it very much.

Either that you could do it briefly, or that it would be helpful.

You teach false doctrine with false application - it will NEVER be helpful.
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It is not "in depth" it is overcomplicated to cause confusion and bewilderment.
We used to have a saying when I was growing up: "If you can dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with with bulldust."
This guy is the latter rather than the former.
He constantly refuses to answer simple questions simply, and interjects with side issues so as not to answer those questions, or even to try to confuse other threads and subjects.

in other words, he's a troll.
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I doubt it very much.

Either that you could do it briefly, or that it would be helpful ...

The reason many do not fully understand the books of Daniel or Revelation, is because they do not understand this text:

 

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Psalms 77:13

 

The Book of Daniel itself is really not merely one prophetic book, but two Major portions related one to the other, even with a special portion of it “sealed” until “the time of the end” [Daniel 12:4,9], which we, will discover in this study was a very specific date.

This Book of Daniel may be basically subdivided into 2 Major sections Chapters 1-7 and Chapters 8-12, respectively, though Chapter 1 is really a basis and connection for both major portions.

 

This is seen not only in the text itself for:

 

Daniel Chapter 1:1-2:4[a], which is the introductory portion of the Book of Daniel, is given in Hebrew,

 

while Daniel Chapter 2:4-7:28 is given in Aramaic [Chaldee].

 

It is when we get to Daniel Chapter 8:1-12:13, that again the Book of Daniel is given primarily in Hebrew language once more.

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm this.

This is not the only way in which to tell that these two portions are so delineated.  For we can tell by the very structure of the Book of Daniel in its Chiastic nature, as Daniel Chapters 1-7 are given Chiastically [Chiasm, “v”, “^” or “x” in shape structurally; ie, abccba, 123321, or more complicated, etc] in the shape of the 7 Branch Candlestick of the Sanctuary, for instance:

Daniel 1 is the center candlestick, [from Captivity [babylon] to Release [Cyrus, the type of Christ]]

 

Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the first corresponding branches [visions of the Kingdoms of the Earth ending in the Kingdom of Christ on Earth].

 

Daniel 3 and Daniel 6 are the next corresponding branches [God's Love, The Trials Of God's Peoples, the Testing of obedience to God's Law, especially in the first Table, worship to God].

 

Daniel 4 and Daniel 5 are the latter corresponding branches [Two Paths, Two Kings, One Saved from His sins and delivered, and One Lost in his sins, his probation closed forever].

 

Thus, imagine the tips of the candles forming on the candelabra:      4 3 2 1 7 6 5
 

7 Branch

 

Candlestick-1_edited-1_copy_edited-2-425

 

Daniel 8-12, being the second Major portion, but again, expanding upon what the first 7 already give. Daniel parallels not only internally, but externally with Revelation itself, see Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 for instance.  Daniel 8 gives another vision, in the language of the Sanctuary, and is expanded upon in Daniel 9-12, and in fact Daniel 8 and 11 Parallel perfectly, though Daniel 11 gives more detail.  Daniel 12:1-3, really are the continuation/furtherance of Daniel 11:40-45.

 

This is not arbitrary and wishful thinking, but will fully be shown to be so, in the study to come, for the Book of Daniel will be seen to be full of the language of the Sanctuary [Tabernacle/Temple] of God, the very Plan of Salvation in picture/type.  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, will be shown to be written in the same manner, after the pattern of the 7 Branch Candlestick...

 

Revelation is also structurally built in the Shape of the 7 Branch Candlestick.

 

The following is simplified.

 

[1] [2] [3] [7] [4] [5] [6]

 

[beginning to Ending]

 

[7] The Great Controversy central theme, Christ/His people, vs Satan/his people, from all of time, Heaven to Earth

 

[basically run Parallel [iow, roughly same timeframes begin/end], some overlapping]

 

[1] 7 Churches....[begin] ------------> [end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

[2] 7 Seals ...........[begin] ------------>[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

[3] 7 Trumpets.... [begin]------------->[end] [parallel basically, some overlapping]

 

[basically run Consecutively [iow, begin/end, begin/end, begin/end], some overlapping]

 

[4] 7 Last Plagues .......[begin]<-------------> [end]

[5] 1,000 Years ..............................................[begin]<---------------------->[end]

[6] New Jerusalem, New Heaven, New Earth ........................................[begin]<---------------------------->[never end]

 

7 Churches also connect with New Jerusalem

7 Seals also connect with 1,000 Years

7 Trumpets also connect with 7 Last Plagues.

 

This may be seen from the internal texts themselves, by the very langauge used in each section.

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...  How does a man in this present time gain eternal life?

It is interesting that you acknowledge that eternal life must be "gain[ed]".  Which means we did not ever have any such thing beforehand [no immortality, no immortal/eternal soul/spirit], and the wicked shall never have it, but they shall all perish.

 

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

That "believeth" is an ongoing faith, not a one time past event, for we are saved by Grace through Faith.  It is an active, present and daily walk with Christ.  It is not mere mental ascent, but bears the fruit of true Biblical faith.  That is the condition given by God.

 

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

 

It is ongoing, daily abiding in Him, for that eternal life is only in Him.

 

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11

 

When we go through Daniel and Revelation more, we will come back to this topic also.

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So to put it simply - since you don't seem to be capable of that - one has to keep themselves constantly in a state of belief.

Not what was stated, please see:

 

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5

 

"...the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4

 

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

 

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:11

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:3

 

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1 Corinthians 12:9

 

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Galatians 5:22

 

And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. Luke 17:5

 

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12

 

Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, 2 Corinthians 10:15

 

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 2 Thessalonians 1:3

 

The condition:

 

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:3

 

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 2 Timothy 4:7

 

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Hebrews 10:38

 

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

 

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

 

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

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You stated "
It is ongoing, daily abiding in Him, for that eternal life is only in Him."

You were in that post talking about believing.

what is implied - although always with you never plainly stated - is that you must keep on believing.

Now you say that isn't what you said and post a heap of verses about faith, which you did not mention in the previous post, and now nothing about believing........

if it is as hard as it appears to be from your posts, how do you know you are right, and how do you know you will actually be with the Lord in the end and not annihilated?



 

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It is interesting that you acknowledge that eternal life must be "gain[ed]".  Which means we did not ever have any such thing beforehand [no immortality, no immortal/eternal soul/spirit], and the wicked shall never have it, but they shall all perish.

 

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

That "believeth" is an ongoing faith, not a one time past event, for we are saved by Grace through Faith.  It is an active, present and daily walk with Christ.  It is not mere mental ascent, but bears the fruit of true Biblical faith.  That is the condition given by God.

 

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

 

It is ongoing, daily abiding in Him, for that eternal life is only in Him.

 

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11

 

When we go through Daniel and Revelation more, we will come back to this topic also.

I've kept out of this topic - though I have skimmed through it. In my Bible studies I try to present main points before looking at the detail.

 

As I understand your teaching, you believe that people are mortal - with no continuing life. That when we die, we become totally dead, as if we had not been born. Even the wicked suffer no punishment in death - that death itself is their punishment. Further those who do believe in Jesus for their salvation have no assurance - our faith can lapse so that we lose everlasting life. We can be born again & so receive everlasting life, but we can die again. 

 

If you are wrong in the way of salvation - teach another gospel - then your teaching about Daniel & Revelation is worthless.

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I've kept out of this topic - though I have skimmed through it...

 

As I understand your teaching, you believe that people are mortal - with no continuing life. That when we die, we become totally dead, as if we had not been born. Even the wicked suffer no punishment in death - that death itself is their punishment. Further those who do believe in Jesus for their salvation have no assurance - our faith can lapse so that we lose everlasting life. We can be born again & so receive everlasting life, but we can die again. 

 

If you are wrong in the way of salvation - teach another gospel - then your teaching about Daniel & Revelation is worthless.

This is what happens when people "skim".  They come to misunderstanding.

 

People are mortal, Scripture declares it - Job 4:17; 1 Corinthians 15, etc, for only God hath immortality - 1 Timothy 6:16, etc.

 

The follower of God has continuing life, in Christ - 2 Timothy 1:1; Colossians 3:3,4; 1 John 5:11; etc, as long as they are abiding in Christ - John 15:4,6, etc.

 

When a follower of God dies, they are not "totally dead".  That is the Second death.  Instead, these are temporarily 'dead'/sleeping, knowing nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; etc.  Christ speaks of the sleep in the grave as the death of sleep - John 11:11,14, etc.

 

The wicked shall [future tense] suffer before their final execution.  There is indeed hellfire, which is "at the end of the world" and not before - Matthew 13:39,40,49, etc.  These things leading unto their suffering the Second Death, is the punishment - Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8, etc.

 

Believers in Christ do have Biblical Assurance of His promises that He would never leave nor forsake them.  However, it never says that we cannot leave Him, even as others have.  There is no forced salvation that a person may not let go of Him, instead He offers salvation.  God is love - 1 John 4:8,16

 

Just look at the parable of the seed upon the differing soils in Luke 8:12,13 especially.  The Seed is Christ.  The various soils the Heart.  Some receive the seed, but because of this or that, not all bear fruit.

 

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

 

Notice:

 

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.Luke 8:15

 

Read again Luke 12:42-46.  Notice the two paths, and see the second especially:

 

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Luke 12:45

 

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46

 

There are many more examples, Old and New Testaments.

 

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Ezekiel 33:13

 

and so on.

 

OSAS, Irresistible Grace, Eternal Security [secure allright, secure in their sins] etc is not assurance, it is rape and totally destroys any responsibility or free choice, or free will that God has given as a gift.  It totally maligns the loving Character of God, and of His perfect beauty therein.  It is presumption, and self-defining, and even used [though not all] as a mask for continued sin, and rejection of God's Holy Spiritual Law, used to reject obedience to God, and is ultimate self-righteousness, and an excuse to not have to overcome even as Christ Jesus overcame, and makes sin to not be really all that bad, and makes of the Cross truly of no effect.  It is counterfeit to true Biblical Assurance.  That which is born again, is just that, "born again", not immortal.  There must be growth, accepting of the milk of the word, then the meat, prayer which is the breath life and connection to God, obedience to His will, by Him in us, etc and if there is not, death sets in, for where there is not the life of Christ, there is death.

 

People love to quote Ephesians 2:8-9, but generally leave off Ephesians 2:10 and they do not understand that Grace actually teaches us something about obedience to God in Him - Titus 2:11-14

 

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

 

If those which believe OSAS, really understood what they believe and think it through, they will realize that they are actually blaming God for Lucifer and for the fall of Adam, and are blaming God for sin itself.  Some go so far as to actually despise the Ten Commandments of God, that Holy, Just and Good and Spiritual Law, themselves claiming to be righteouss and are yet carnal, and in transgression - Romans 8:7, all because they do not desire to obey Him in all of them and they refuse to repent to come into harmony with the will of God - Psalms 40:8 and make their own rule of righteousness.  They were perfect, holy, righteous, before they actually chose to step away from God.

 

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

 

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2 Timothy 2:12

 

There are hundreds more, please, please consider at least reading this small portion of it - http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/17/t/can-a-saved-man-choose-to-be-lost.aspx

 

I have assurance from God Himself, because I know Him in relationship through His Word, not because He tied me up, locked me up and threw me in the back of His trunk and kidnaps me to Heaven, where I can never choose to leave, forced to remain with such a person, who dare not let me have any choice to love Him in return freely.

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...If you are wrong in the way of salvation - teach another gospel - then your teaching about Daniel & Revelation is worthless.

In politeness, please, remain on topic.  I have attempted to answer a few questions, so as not to be rude or unkind or uncharitable, but this thread is presently being abused and cluttered.  I ask in Christian charity, please cease.  As of the moment, we are in Daniel 1.

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Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  Galatians 5:4
 
7th Day Adventists are living under the Law (of Moses).  There are 613 Commandments in the Old Testament to obey "under the Law".
 
Obviously, 7th Day Adventists are not "sealed with the Holy Spirit" as are those who live under the Gospel to the Gentiles of "by grace, through faith".
 
Old Testament believers had the Spirit "come upon them", but they were never "Sealed with the Holy Spirit".  God does not "seal" one day, and "unseal" the next.
 
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  Ephesians 1:13
 
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9
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Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  Galatians 5:4
 
7th Day Adventists are living under the Law (of Moses).  There are 613 Commandments in the Old Testament to obey "under the Law".
 
Obviously, 7th Day Adventists are not "sealed with the Holy Spirit" as are those who live under the Gospel to the Gentiles of "by grace, through faith".
 
Old Testament believers had the Spirit "come upon them", but they were never "Sealed with the Holy Spirit".  God does not "seal" one day, and "unseal" the next.
 
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  Ephesians 1:13
 
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

 

Beameup,

 

We do not preach justification by any law.  That is a misunderstanding held by others, foisted upon us by them, though we continually, and unceasingly declare from Scripture otherwise.

 

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Isaiah 45:21

 

Christ Jesus is truly Israel - Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:15; and we are Abraham's seed - Galatians 3:29.

 

There is no such thing as 613 in Scripture.  That is a man-made and made up thing of tradition from rabbinc talmudism.  Scripture specifically calls all of it, one law.

 

Scripture does specifically delineate The "Ten Commandments" - Exodus 20:2-17; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 10:4, and the Two Greatest - Love to God - Deuteronomy 6:5, and Love to Neighbour - Leviticus 19:17-18, both of which relate directly to the Ten Commandments, see context of both statements there and from that Jesus and Paul, etc quotes from.

 

Most have no idea what "under the law" means as Paul gives it, since they generally quote an isolated text out of its contextual setting and definition.  See the verse that is often quoted as such:

 

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

 

and they say, "See! There you have it!", and yet they do not understand what it says.  Consider the following please:

 

First, What is sin?

 

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

 

pAV o poiwn thn amartian kai thn anomian poiei kai h amartia estin h anomia 1 John 3:4 [Tr. Greek]

 

Notice, it says that "missing the mark" is breaking God's Law, it is transgression of God's Law, it is Lawlessness.  This is because the Law of God is His perfect Character, codified.

 

"αμαρτιανG266 N-ASF & αμαρτιαG266 N-NSF" [hamartian, hamartia] -


"1) equivalent to 264 a) to be without a share in
B)to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many" [strong's Concordance]

"ανομιανG458 N-ASF & ανομιαG458 N-NSF" [anomian, anomia] -


"1) the condition of without law a) because ignorant of it
B) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness" [strong's Concordance; see also Thayer's Lexicon]

"...It [anomia] occurs very frequently in the Sept., especially in the Psalms, where it is found about 70 times. It is used ...

...This definition of sin sets forth its essential character as the rejection of the law, or will, of God and the substitution of the will of self..." [Vines Expository]

 

In fact the LXX Septuagint uses the word "anomian" many many times, to speak of this "lawlessness" as being a willful transgression of the Law of God in Psalms 118 [LXX], Psalms 119 [KJV]. For instance:


οὐ γὰρ οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτοῦ ἐπορεύθησαν. Psalms 118:3 [LXX] [119:3 KJV]

They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. Psalms 119:3 [context of this is vs 1, "ALEPH. Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD."]

τὰ διαβήματά μου κατεύθυνον κατὰ τὸ λόγιόν σου, καὶ μὴ κατακυριευσάτω μου πᾶσα ἀνομία. Psalms 118:133 [LXX] [119:133 KJV]

Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. Psalms 119:133 [again context is vs 131 "I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments." and vs 136 "Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law. "]

προσήγγισαν οἱ καταδιώκοντές με ἀνομίᾳ ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ νόμου σου ἐμακρύνθησαν Psalms 118:150 [LXX] [119:150 KJV]

They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law. Psalms 119:150 [again context vs 151 "Thou [art] near, O LORD; and all thy commandments [are] truth."]

 

Does Paul say the same?  Yes he does:

 

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

 

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9

 

What Law says that?  Therefore, what Law defines what sin is?  The Ten Commandments.

 

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

 

James agrees:

 

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

 

and so on.

 

What does Paul say in the very next verse?

 

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

 

Please, go back and insert the Biblical definition for sin in both of those passages, and then let us continue further still.  Notice:

 

For sin [transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments] shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

 

What then? shall we sin [trangress God's Law, the Ten Commandments], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

 

Now, to Grace a moment.  Grace is not freedom from God's requirment of perfect obedience.  it instead is power and a teacher:

 

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11

 

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:12

 

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

 

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:14

 

Can you guess what that word "iniquity" is in the Greek?  It is Anomia.  It literally says that God desires to redeem us from all transgression of His Law.

 

Tit 2:14  ὃς ἔδωκεν ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν, ἵνα λυτρώσηται ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀνομίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἑαυτῷ λαὸν περιούσιον, ζηλωτὴν καλῶν ἔργων.

 

Notice also that word "righteously".  It is the very same word used:

 

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.1 Corinthians 15:34

 

Therefore, Grace teaches to be obedient unto God in this present world, for the Holy Spirit is only given to them that obey Him - Acts 5:32

 

Therefore back to our texts:

 

For sin [transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments] shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace [which teaches to be obedient unto God and His Commandments as dear children]. Romans 6:14

 

What then? shall we sin [trangress God's Law, the Ten Commandments], because we are not under the law, but under grace [which teaches to be obedient unto God and His commandments as dear children]? God forbid. Romans 6:15

 

Now to the last portion, "under the law" in Romans 6:14,15, actually speaks about being "guilty" [condemnation] before God:

 

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

 

Because of Christ Jesus and His sacrifice and shed blood, were are made "not guilty" - iow - Justified by Him, the gift of God to usward.

 

Therefore, going back to Romans 6:14 again, we enter the last portion:

 

For sin [transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments] shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law [no longer standing "guilty" for past confessed sins, no longer under condemnation for the past transgression of God's Law], but under grace [which teaches to be obedient unto God and His Commandments as dear children]. Romans 6:14

 

What then? shall we sin [trangress God's Law, the Ten Commandments], because we are not under the law [no longer standing "guilty" for past confessed sins, no longer under condemnation for the past transgression of God's Law], but under grace [which teaches to be obedient unto God and His commandments as dear children]? God forbid. Romans 6:15

 

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin [transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments] unto death, or of obedience [to God and His Law] unto righteousness? Romans 6:16

 

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin [transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments], but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.Romans 6:17

 

Being then made free from sin [trangress God's Law, the Ten Commandments], ye became the servants of righteousness [Psalms 119:72,142; Isaiah 42:21, Isaiah 48:18, Isaiah 51:7, Romans 8:4; etc].Romans 6:18

 

Keep filling in the definitions:

 

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Romans 6:19 [remember the Law of God is both Holy and Righteous]

 

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Romans 6:20

 

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. Romans 6:21

 

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:22

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

The fruit of those who walk in the Spirit keep His Commandments, since the Law itself is Spiritual, but the Carnally minded, are not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be,   Instead of enmity for sin, which is transgression of His law, such as those instead are filled with enmity against the Law of God, His Ten Commandments, and thus against Him, though some may profess to honour Him, by so dishonouring Him as to transgress His Law.  Even now they war against Him.

 

Read Ezekiel 9 for sealing as well as Isaiah 8:16, both of which are not only for the past, but also for today, then see them in the Light of the Revelation and the sealing therein.  Read Ephesians 4:30 about grieving away the Holy Spirit, whom is a person, even as those did in the Days of Noe.

 

There is only one method of salvation, and it goes all the way back to Adam, they looking forward, we looking back to Christ.  For all promises of God are yes and Amen in Him alone.

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And now the false doctrine of Replacement Theology.

You sir you teach a works based salvation, totally at odds with the Word of God.

You keep telling us that we don't understand your position, but many of us here know what the SDA teach in spite of your doubletalk and deception.

When asked, Paul gave a simple answer to the question of salvation:
Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Another time in explanation Paul said:
Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The passage in Romans 10 by the way is contrasting man's attempts at making himself righteous against God' s righteousness imputed to men.
And God's righteousness is imputed by the mechanism of vs 9 and 10.

You must forsake your reliance on your own ability to hold and keep righteousness and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ for that righteousness that only God can provide as a free gift.

Your doubletalk and deception, your twisting and confusion of God's Word, your reinterpretation and false referencing are not going to give you God's righteousness, and no matter what you think, without that righteousness you will spend eternity in the lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  Romans 14:5
 
There are no "special" or "holy" days to those who are under the Gospel of Grace.
To those, like religious Jews under the Law, there is a "Sabbath" observance.
The 613 commandments are straight from the Old Testament (Torah),
anyone who says otherwise is a LIAR (every orthodox Jew knows this).
 

 

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.  James 2:10
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I have moved this topic to False Religions. I have done this because this is clearly staed a Baptist Board, made up of, and for, Independent Funadamental Baptists. Anyone may join and partake, of course, but there will be no Bible Studies based upon Seventh Day Adventist doctrines, any more than there will be of Mormonism, or jehovah's Witnesses or anything else that we would classify clearly as a false religion, except in this forum.

 

No offense meant to anyone, particularly Banner Over Me Was Love-you have generally been kind in your dealings and polite, so it is not meant as a swipe at you. It was done for the sake of the board as a whole.

 

Carry on.

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You do of course realise that In

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The word days can not possibly mean years.

The words days is translated from two Hebrew words, the first of which means evening and the second of which means morning.

In this instance these two words are compounded, indicating that they are a single concept - an "evening-morning".

There is no possibility in the Hebrew that this phrase can be applied to anything other than days - certainly not to years.

Bill Miller was wrong about that, Ellie White blindly followed in his error, as do SDA's today.
The real problem with that is that the SDA eschatology relies heavily on these 2300 years which simply do not exist in the Bible.

That verse says days and it can only mean days, regardless of how much any false teacher wants it to means years.......

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...Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. ...

Brother DaveW,

 

Would you mind if I ask you if you were ever a Seventh-day Adventist [please do not take offense if no, I am just curious]?

 

Would you be interested in considering a few questions about Daniel 8 ahead of topic?

 

I will keep my replies short as I am able if you will converse with me and enter into a few questions with me.

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No, but I have known some, and have done some study, including of SDA produced material.

I am utterly convinced that SDA are wrong on salvation, eternity, eschatology, and more, and your babblings do nothing to change that view.

Your logic and explanations are just what I see in the documents I have, and the errors of logic, of application, of referencing, and of explanation are obvious, even without resorting to the books I have which expose the errors and deceit of the SDA.

I am not interested in joining you in any sort of study, but I will happily continue to challenge your misuse and abuse of Scripture.

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No, but I have known some, and have done some study, including of SDA produced material.

I am utterly convinced that SDA are wrong on salvation, eternity, eschatology, and more, and your babblings do nothing to change that view.

Your logic and explanations are just what I see in the documents I have, and the errors of logic, of application, of referencing, and of explanation are obvious, even without resorting to the books I have which expose the errors and deceit of the SDA.

I am not interested in joining you in any sort of study, but I will happily continue to challenge your misuse and abuse of Scripture.

Ok, thank you for answering the questions as you have.  :)

 

Well, perhaps you can help me out then, and you can teach me.  :)

 

In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. Daniel 8:1

 

And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. Daniel 8:2

 

What was the first beast that Daniel saw in the vision?

 

What was the second beast that Daniel saw in the vision?

 

What does the first beast represent in the vision?

 

What does the second beast represent in the vision?

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Its not the USA.........

Excellent, I do not believe that either of those two beasts in Daniel 8, the 1st or the 2nd are the USA either!  Now that we know what it is not, can you tell me what they are, and what they represent, and how you came to that conclusion based upon the scripture?

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I've already told you that I have no interest in joining you in any sort of study, aside to that which would lead you to eternal life, but I will continue to expose your false teaching at every opportunity.

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