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Revelation 12 And Daniel 12


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The Bible is the real definitive work on the subject.

Could you point us to the verse that gives us the date of the commandment for the rebuilding of the temple and the wall?

 

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again,
and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25
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Could you point us to the verse that gives us the date of the commandment for the rebuilding of the temple and the wall?

 

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again,
and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25
 

 

I don't think that anyone can give you the exact date as I believe that all dates on the top of the pages of our bibles are all guesswork.

 

But in Isaiah chapter 44, we are told that God had already given the command.  But it is not the command itself, but the publishing or going forth of the command from which it is dated.  And Isaiah 44 and 45 tell us that it was Cyrus who was to give the command.

 

From the going forth or publishing of the command by Cyrus there was to be 7 weeks or 49 years till Nehemiah completed the walls. From then 62 weeks till the baptism of Jesus.  One week or seven years more while the gospel was directed to the Jews and then the way of salvation was opened to the gentiles.  You don't need any secular speculations as to BC dates, or even AD dates.  Scripture has it all.

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I don't think that anyone can give you the exact date as I believe that all dates on the top of the pages of our bibles are all guesswork.

 

But in Isaiah chapter 44, we are told that God had already given the command.  But it is not the command itself, but the publishing or going forth of the command from which it is dated.  And Isaiah 44 and 45 tell us that it was Cyrus who was to give the command.

 

From the going forth or publishing of the command by Cyrus there was to be 7 weeks or 49 years till Nehemiah completed the walls. From then 62 weeks till the baptism of Jesus.  One week or seven years more while the gospel was directed to the Jews and then the way of salvation was opened to the gentiles.  You don't need any secular speculations as to BC dates, or even AD dates.  Scripture has it all.

Nope.  Cyrus command was to rebuild the Temple only.  You need to read your Bible a bit more carefully.

 

Would it make a difference if we actually had the decree of Cyrus (Cyrus Cylinder)?

Or are you of the persuasion that reading of anything outside the Bible is forbidden?

Some might suggest that we should only "listen" to the Holy Spirit (to guide us into Truth).

Of course that could rule out all Christian T.V. or the Christian Bookstore or even "sermons"

as well as results of any "archeology" from the Middle-East.

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Nope.  Cyrus command was to rebuild the Temple only.  You need to read your Bible a bit more carefully.

 

Would it make a difference if we actually had the decree of Cyrus (Cyrus Cylinder)?

Or are you of the persuasion that reading of anything outside the Bible is forbidden?

Some might suggest that we should only "listen" to the Holy Spirit (to guide us into Truth).

Of course that could rule out all Christian T.V. or the Christian Bookstore or even "sermons"

as well as results of any "archeology" from the Middle-East.

 

 

You are absolutely wrong.

 

Isaiah 44: 23  Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25  That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
1 ¶  Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2  I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3  And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4  For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 ¶  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9  Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10  Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 ¶  Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12  I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13  I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
14  Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
15  Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16  They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17  But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19  I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
 
Nehemiah was only to repair the walls which he did in only 52 days.  The city was already built, Those Jews repaired the wall by their own houses.
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You are absolutely wrong.

 

 

28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
 
 
Nehemiah was only to repair the walls which he did in only 52 days.  The city was already built, Those Jews repaired the wall by their own houses.

 

Under whose authorithy did Nehemiah "rebuild the walls", Cyrus?  I believe that you stated that Daniel's prophecy was to start with the decree of Cyrus.

So, give us the date.  Oh, that's right, the Bible does not give a date.  I guess that we will never be able to "figure out" the starting date of Daniel's prophecy,

will we?

Do you listen to "sermons" or read books from "Christian bookstores" or watch "Christian T.V." or listen to "Christian radio messages"??

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Nehemiah 1-6

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Under whose authorithy did Nehemiah "rebuild the walls", Cyrus?  I believe that you stated that Daniel's prophecy was to start with the decree of Cyrus.

So, give us the dateOh, that's right, the Bible does not give a date.  I guess that we will never be able to "figure out" the starting date of Daniel's prophecy,

will we?

Do you listen to "sermons" or read books from "Christian bookstores" or watch "Christian T.V." or listen to "Christian radio messages"??

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Nehemiah 1-6

 

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Isaiah 44:24-28  "Thus saith the LORD"

.

v. 28a  sayeth of Cyrus

v. 28b  say to Jerusalem

These are seperate statements, not to be cojoined

I know of nowhere in the Bible is there an exact date given as shown on a calender (ie; June 21, 0021)

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I know of nowhere in the Bible is there an exact date given as shown on a calender (ie; June 21, 0021)

Well, those that rely "only on the Bible" are unable to produce dates.  In that case, we really cannot determine even the year Jesus was born (for example).

Say, a scroll was found or a cuneiform tablet, in that case we would be forbidden to even examine it.  As it stands right now, for example,

there is little or no evidence that the Exodus even took place.

Suppose evidence was found for the Exodus, would those that rely "only on the Bible" be sinning to even examine the evidence?

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Well, those that rely "only on the Bible" are unable to produce dates.  In that case, we really cannot determine even the year Jesus was born (for example).

Say, a scroll was found or a cuneiform tablet, in that case we would be forbidden to even examine it.  As it stands right now, for example,

there is little or no evidence that the Exodus even took place.

Suppose evidence was found for the Exodus, would those that rely "only on the Bible" be sinning to even examine the evidence?

No. However when some "discovered" evidence is contradictory to the Bible, then we have a Major problem. 

Either we accept the Bible as the Word of God which He has preserved for us or we don't. The Bible is not to be used as a buffet; pick and choose what we like and discard what we don't like.

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No. However when some "discovered" evidence is contradictory to the Bible, then we have a Major problem. 

Either we accept the Bible as the Word of God which He has preserved for us or we don't. The Bible is not to be used as a buffet; pick and choose what we like and discard what we don't like.

There are those who disagree with you and rely "only on the Bible".  The Bible is not a "history book" per se IMO, and there are "apparent" contradictions.

For example, some state that Cyrus is responsible for building the wall in Jerusalem.  Others point out that, Belshazzar "appears" to be the ruler of

all Babylon (Daniel 5), which seems to be "contradictory".  And then there is the Exodus, which is very clear in scripture but not elsewhere.

If you are left with NOTHING but the Bible, then many "unsolved mysteries" remain unanswered.  But I must respect that there are those

who do rely "only on the Bible" for all their information.

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There are those who disagree with you and rely "only on the Bible".  The Bible is not a "history book" per se IMO, and there are "apparent" contradictions.

For example, some state that Cyrus is responsible for building the wall in Jerusalem.  Others point out that, Belshazzar "appears" to be the ruler of

all Babylon (Daniel 5), which seems to be "contradictory".  And then there is the Exodus, which is very clear in scripture but not elsewhere.

If you are left with NOTHING but the Bible, then many "unsolved mysteries" remain unanswered.  But I must respect that there are those

who do rely "only on the Bible" for all their information.

I believe its time for me to 'stop beating a dead horse'. However, I must say:

I DO rely only on the Bible. So-called discovered evidence is in the eye of the beholder and therefore is interpreted by same.

As far as who was responsible for rebuilding the wall; I could care less; what really matters is that it was rebuilt.

As for the exodus; Just the fact that God took them from Egypt and took them into the 'promise land' is all I really need to know. Yes- all those events that occurred in between is great to know; because it tells us how God dealt with his children and took care of them. But the bottom line is that they were once in bondage and now they're free. Just as God's children is today. :wave: 

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No more sola scriptura?

Absolutely, however, we have been given history as a resource to broaden or flesh out the truths the Bible give us. We don't shape our truths and cotrines by historym but instead, history gives us additional information. Just as looking to the stars shows us the gory and handiwork of God-do we "Need" them, alng with scripture? Well, scripture seems to think so, as it is in scripture that we see David telling us that the heavens declare the handiwork of God. Is looking to the heaven taking away from sola scriptura? Not at all. Its a resource given to us by the Lord, like history, like the wisdom of some perhaps wiser than oursleves. History confirms the truths of scripture.  And its actually done a dandy job of it!

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Some of you are like the JWs, you have one or two proof texts and refuse to look further into the scriptures to see if you are correct.

 

What does the scripture say?

 

28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

 

Who said that? I didn't, God did.

 

If we take the generally, but not universally received chronology, Nehemiah must have been over 150 years old when he worked on the walls as he was one of the Jewish leaders who returned with Zerubbabel,

 

Ezra 2:1 ¶  Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
2  Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah.

 

 

The list is repeated again in Neh. 10:1, with different spellings and one addition.

Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, (Nahamani,) Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, Baanah.

 

38  And because of all this we make a sure covenant, and write it; and our princes, Levites, and priests, seal unto it.
1 ¶  Now those that sealed were, Nehemiah, the Tirshatha, the son of Hachaliah, and Zidkijah,
Seraiah, Azariah, Jeremiah,
3  Pashur, Amariah, Malchijah,
4  Hattush, Shebaniah, Malluch,
5  Harim, Meremoth, Obadiah,
6  Daniel, Ginnethon, Baruch,
7  Meshullam, Abijah, Mijamin,
8  Maaziah, Bilgai, Shemaiah: these were the priests.
9  And the Levites: both Jeshua the son of Azaniah, Binnui of the sons of Henadad, Kadmiel;
10  And their brethren, Shebaniah, Hodijah, Kelita, Pelaiah, Hanan,
11  Micha, Rehob, Hashabiah,
12  Zaccur, Sherebiah, Shebaniah,
13  Hodijah, Bani, Beninu.
14  The chief of the people; Parosh, Pahathmoab, Elam, Zatthu, Bani,
15  Bunni, Azgad, Bebai,
16  Adonijah, Bigvai, Adin,
17  Ater, Hizkijah, Azzur,
18  Hodijah, Hashum, Bezai,
19  Hariph, Anathoth, Nebai,
20  Magpiash, Meshullam, Hezir,
21  Meshezabeel, Zadok, Jaddua,
22  Pelatiah, Hanan, Anaiah,
23  Hoshea, Hananiah, Hashub,
24  Hallohesh, Pileha, Shobek,
25  Rehum, Hashabnah, Maaseiah,
26  And Ahijah, Hanan, Anan,
27  Malluch, Harim, Baanah.

 

You may be able to find more.  Is it likely that that many of those who returned at first were still alive if the longer chronology is followed?

 

OK I was trying to quote only the bible and not 'history'  Modern chronology is based on the teahings of one Claudius Ptolemy who wrote in the 2nd century AD.  He gave a list of supposed Persian kings which made the length of the Persian empire about  205 years.  However Jewish and Persian traditions gave it only 53 years. Ptolemy was a pagan astrologer, astronomer who taught that the sun went round the earth.  He probably made only guesses as to the number of Persian kings and the length of their reigns.

 

History 2.  Josephus the Jewish Historian said that Cyrus gave the command to build the city and the temple.  He probably gave the Jewish understanding of the time. ((About 100 AD +/-)

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Mike, as you probably realize, I wasn't saying that no other source should ever be looked at. My only point was/is that the Bible is sufficient in itself. As you pointed out, we don't "need" the historical proofs of the Bible's accuracy, but there is nothing wrong with noting them.

 

The problem comes when some take sources other than Scripture as being equal to or greater than Scripture. Along this same line are those who may say that history proves "A" in the Bible is true, but history is silent on "B" so I can't fully believe what the Bible says about "B" and on point "C" history seems to contradict the Bible so something is wrong with that portion of Scripture.

 

In cases such as those, it must be sola scriptura, which in it's real meaning is simply that the Bible is the full and final authority; all other sources must bow to Scripture.

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