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Revelation 12 And Daniel 12


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Revelation 12 and Daniel 12

 

 

At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation. [...]

Hi,

 

Would you mind if I disagree, based upon the scriptures of course, with that which was stated and have a bit of room to expound?  or would you think it better for me to begin a separate thread?

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Hi,

 

Would you mind if I disagree, based upon the scriptures of course, with that which was stated and have a bit of room to expound?  or would you think it better for me to begin a separate thread?

I always want to learn. lets talk here.

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Can't say I've ever believed much of the things you say came from Milton or the like as you describe above. It's a moot point and painting me into a Milton-esque box isn't all that accurate.

 

Regarding your interpretation of the passage and point out of v. 10, wouldn't a future interpretation of this statement require that salvation is not yet come? Perhaps it's not the salvation brought by Jesus? If not, then what is it referring to? If this is a future event then the power of Christ is also still far off. I think you misunderstand my interpretation of the timeline. I readily believe that Satan had access to heaven (in some capacity) in OT times (as evidenced in Job), but that this access was cut off when he was cast out sometime before the birth of Christ and his defeat was ensured at Calvary.

 

Finally, on your exhortation to ignore Greek and Hebrew, I flatly disagree. Depth of meaning and clarity is easy to lose in translation, particularly between a language that is highly inflective and one that is not. The semantic range of an English word can overlap multiple words in Greek and/or Hebrew and vice versa. For the average reader, yes, study English and learn it better and the historical meanings of words for a better understanding of the Bible. Greek and Hebrew should not be approached casually, but rather should be earnestly studied. I don't just pick up a concordance and look up all the definitions for a word and choose the one that makes the most sense to me. That method I highly disagree with. I study Greek and Hebrew in depth and it adds to my understanding. Ignoring the differences in the way languages communicate information solely on the basis of giving preference to one is folly. That doesn't mean I believe the KJV was inaccurately translated or try to correct it, but I study original languages because limits the available semantic range of the English words used and adds clarity to the intended meaning.

There are varying kinds of salvation. Some are yet future.

 

Hebrews 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

I Peter 1:5- Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

Messing with the Greek and Hebrew will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. If you truly believe that the KJV is the pure words of God why mess with the Greek or Hebrew? God gave you in English the words that he wanted you to have. Use an English dictionary to find the meaning of the words.

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There are varying kinds of salvation. Some are yet future.

 

Hebrews 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

I Peter 1:5- Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

 

 

So perhaps the real difference in what we're talking about here is whether the salvation referenced in verse 10 is intended to reference as a whole or collective concept or as an individual event. If you understand it as an individual reference, then I understand what you're trying to say. However, I think context of repeated collective statements (e.g., our, them, the kingdom of God) point toward salvation as a whole concept and intended to mean work Christ accomplishing on our behalf. If that's the case, then it is not far off, but immediately available. Additionally, salvation is truly a future event, as you point out in 1 Peter 1:5 because what we are saved from is an eternity separated from God in a placed called hell because of our sin, which is not fully affected until we pass from this life into eternity; so in a sense, we have assurance of salvation when we die.

 

 

Messing with the Greek and Hebrew will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. If you truly believe that the KJV is the pure words of God why mess with the Greek or Hebrew? God gave you in English the words that he wanted you to have. Use an English dictionary to find the meaning of the words.

 

This argument can be turned completely in reverse and hold the same truth.  If you stick to only an English dictionary it will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. English words have range of meaning that can overlap multiple Greek or Hebrew words. Likewise, Greek/Hebrew words have a range of meaning that can overlap multiple English words. Simply checking an English dictionary can, and often does, lead to someone choosing a definition that is far from the intended meaning. Here is a very basic, and exaggerated, example:

 

Romans 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

body:

1. the physical structure and material substance of an animal or plant, living or dead.

2. a corpse; carcass

3. the trunk, or main mass of a thing

4. the physical structure of a human being or animal, not including the head, limbs, and tail; trunk; torso.

5. the principal mass of a building.

6. the main part or majority of something

 

Is the "body of Christ" here a corpse? The rest of the verse is talking about being dead in the body...? What about the mass of a building? Is it talking about the church building then? Perhaps it means the material substance of Christ? The Greek rules out some of the possibilities.

 

Word translated "body" is somatos (σώματος).

1. the living body of both men or animals

2. planets or stars (heavenly bodies)

3. a large or small number of men closely united into one society or family

 

This leaves out "corpse;carcass"; that would be the Greek word nekros (νεκρός). Building or physical structure? No, that's also not in the range of somatos. Likewise, planets and stars is not in the English range of "body" so it's out. We're left with "living body", "number of men closely united", "majority/main part", and "physical structure of a human being" because they are the only points of overlap. From Eph 2:8-9 that being a part of a church or in a building doesn't save you or make one dead to the law, so those two are out. We're left only with "living body of men" and "the physical structure of a human being" which can essentially be understood to be the same thing. The beautiful truth lost in translation from Greek to English is that it specifically refers to a living body. We're dead to the Law because Christ rose again. This is hinted at, but not emphasized, by the second half of the verse.

 

Suppose the someone looked only at the English dictionary and decided to go with "building" or "main part" and say that we're made dead to the Law by the Church or church building? That's a heresy called Catholicism. I've heard that very assertion on more than one occasion.

 

A similar study of 1 Cor 12:25 would show that where the same words are used (body and somati) is intended to mean the other point of overlap and mean the church or collecitve group.

 

Consider also the word "baptize". The English definition is:

1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism

2. to cleanse spiritually; intiate or dedicate by purifying

3. to give a name to at baptism; christen.

 

These definitions give, and even emphasize, alternate modes of baptism as well as baptismal regeneration. I doubt you would agree with either of those concepts. The Greek word ALWAYS used in the Bible for baptize is baptizo (βαπτίζω, or an inflected form of it). It means:

 

1. to dip repeatedly

2. to immerse

3. to submerge

 

The Greek word used makes clear that baptism is by immersion only while the English leaves it open for sprinkling and pouring. You absolutely cannot deny that this mistake is made in abundance. Studying and using Greek and Hebrew only brings confusion and error when it is done carelessly or maliciously, juse like English.

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I always want to learn. lets talk here.

Ok, thank you for the wonderful opportunity to open the Scripture together.

 

If I may ask you a question to begin with?

 

Where do you personally find the "7 year tribulation" in Scripture?  What I am asking for is not the explanation, but simply the location in Scripture of such a teaching.   If you could please list the specific Bible references, either in Short [ex.  Gen 1:1; etc] or in full quotation: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1"  I would very much appreciate it, that I may see the passages for myself, and then ask further questions for dialogue.  I do not want to jump ahead of anyone and assume, so please, if you will present the texts plainly, and then we may continue from there.  :)

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Daniel 9:24-27

There is still one "week" [shabuwa`] of years (7 years) yet unfulfilled in this prophecy.

 

In the same way, Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and stopped mid-sentence and declared

that the prophecy had been fulfilled.  There remains yet complete fulfillment of the rest of this Prophecy.

See Luke 4:18-21 (see Isaiah 61:1-3).  The "Day of Vengence" is the Battle of Armageddon.

This really is basic Prophecy 101

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Ok, thank you for the wonderful opportunity to open the Scripture together.

 

If I may ask you a question to begin with?

 

Where do you personally find the "7 year tribulation" in Scripture?  What I am asking for is not the explanation, but simply the location in Scripture of such a teaching.   If you could please list the specific Bible references, either in Short [ex.  Gen 1:1; etc] or in full quotation: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1"  I would very much appreciate it, that I may see the passages for myself, and then ask further questions for dialogue.  I do not want to jump ahead of anyone and assume, so please, if you will present the texts plainly, and then we may continue from there.  :)

 

Revelation 11:1-14

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

((This is the last 42 months or 1/2 of 7 years when Jerusalem is under the control of the antichrist after he breaks the 7 year covenant from Daniel 9:27))

 

((Next the first 1260 days or 1/2 of the 7 years occurs while the two witnesses do their testimony.))

 

 

 

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

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Revelation 11:1-14

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

((This is the last 42 months or 1/2 of 7 years when Jerusalem is under the control of the antichrist after he breaks the 7 year covenant from Daniel 9:27))

 

((Next the first 1260 days or 1/2 of the 7 years occurs while the two witnesses do their testimony.))

 

 

 

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

What if I told you, based upon the Scripture, that those 1,260 are already fulfilled, and were years, not days?  And that they are not part of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9?  and that the two witnesses have already witnessed of their testimony?

 

Would you like to see this?

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Daniel 9:24-27

There is still one "week" [shabuwa`] of years (7 years) yet unfulfilled in this prophecy.

 

In the same way, Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and stopped mid-sentence and declared

that the prophecy had been fulfilled.  There remains yet complete fulfillment of the rest of this Prophecy.

See Luke 4:18-21 (see Isaiah 61:1-3).  The "Day of Vengence" is the Battle of Armageddon.

This really is basic Prophecy 101

 

I disagree, would you like to see why?  May we look at the Scriptures together?

 

Can you explain to me what Jesus meant here:

 

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

What "time" was Jesus referring to?

 

Or can you tell me the same for what Jesus said here in regards to the "time":

 

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matthew 26:18

 

I have questions for those which believe in futurism or preterism.  Would any like to see if they may answer them for me?

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I disagree, would you like to see why?  May we look at the Scriptures together?

 

Can you explain to me what Jesus meant here:

 

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

What "time" was Jesus referring to?

 

Or can you tell me the same for what Jesus said here in regards to the "time":

 

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matthew 26:18

 

I have questions for those which believe in futurism or preterism.  Would any like to see if they may answer them for me?

 

kairos (καιρός) - it's an appointed or certain time. Mark 1:15 is Jesus announcement that He is beginning His earthly ministry. Matthew 26:18 is referencing Jesus' appointed time of glory and revelation (i.e. cruicifixion).

 

If you're about to assert that the time and the two witnesses refer to the OT prophets and the time leading up to Christ then you're going to make another major eisegetical error and force an understanding that is not in harmony with the immediate context of either of those verses.

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I disagree, would you like to see why?  May we look at the Scriptures together?

 

Can you explain to me what Jesus meant here:

 

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

What "time" was Jesus referring to?

 

Or can you tell me the same for what Jesus said here in regards to the "time":

 

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matthew 26:18

 

I have questions for those which believe in futurism or preterism.  Would any like to see if they may answer them for me?

You can disagree all you want to.  Basic prophecy uses Daniel's prophecy as the "timeline" for Israel, and the last 7 years have not been fulfilled.

 

Jesus speaking:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  see Matt 24:15-22 
NOTE the reference to the observance of the SABBATH DAY in vs. 20
 
The Jews were expected to know the exact day that the Messiah would enter Jerusalem riding on a donkey,
(triumphal entry) by reading Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9 and counting from the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus.
 
"Preterists" will tell you that ALL prophecy was completely fulfilled by 70AD.
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What if I told you, based upon the Scripture, that those 1,260 are already fulfilled, and were years, not days?  And that they are not part of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9?  and that the two witnesses have already witnessed of their testimony?

 

Would you like to see this?

You would be wrong.

 

Revelation 11:12-14

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

In order for the 1260 days to have been completed 25% of the world's population would have had to die in the first 6 seal judgments. And another 25% would have to have died in the first 6 trumpet judgments. All the crops on the earth would have had to been destroyed at one time. A falling star would have had to of poisoned 1/3 of the fresh water on earth.

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