Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Eric Stahl

Revelation 12 And Daniel 12

Recommended Posts

Revelation 12 and Daniel 12

 

 

At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation.

 

 

 

 

Revelation 12:7-17

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe (3rd mid trib) to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (1260 days), from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

 

Daniel 12:1-13

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

 

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. ( This happens 30 days before the devil is cast to the earth and the great persecution begins spoken of in Matthew 24:15-27)

 

 

 

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Matthew 25:31-46 judgment of the sheep and the goats after the tribulation)

 

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are correct on the Dan 12 passage regarding Michael's involvment in the tribulation (though I admittedly need more study on it). However, I do disagree with your assertion out of Rev 12 that Satan and his demons will be cast out of heaven at this time. I understand this chapter to be a parenthetic that that describes a historical event, particularly describing the fall of Satan and his efforts to prevent the birth of Christ and ruin His earthly ministry. In Luke 10:18, Jesus speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven as a past and completed event; indeed it is during the NT period that we also see the attestation of a surge in demonic activity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are correct on the Dan 12 passage regarding Michael's involvment in the tribulation (though I admittedly need more study on it). However, I do disagree with your assertion out of Rev 12 that Satan and his demons will be cast out of heaven at this time. I understand this chapter to be a parenthetic that that describes a historical event, particularly describing the fall of Satan and his efforts to prevent the birth of Christ and ruin His earthly ministry. In Luke 10:18, Jesus speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven as a past and completed event; indeed it is during the NT period that we also see the attestation of a surge in demonic activity.

Luke 10:17-20

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

 

 

 

Ezekiel 28:13-19

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

 

 

(Notice that there are kings on the earth before God will cast Satan to the earth)

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

 

 

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

 

 

Satan has access to the throne of God to accuse us of sin now.

 

Revelation12:10

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

 

 

(Satan will fall after he destroys the nations)

 

Isaiah 14:12-17

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are correct on the Dan 12 passage regarding Michael's involvment in the tribulation (though I admittedly need more study on it). However, I do disagree with your assertion out of Rev 12 that Satan and his demons will be cast out of heaven at this time. I understand this chapter to be a parenthetic that that describes a historical event, particularly describing the fall of Satan and his efforts to prevent the birth of Christ and ruin His earthly ministry. In Luke 10:18, Jesus speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven as a past and completed event; indeed it is during the NT period that we also see the attestation of a surge in demonic activity.

It's still a future event. Too many people have unwittingly had their theology inspired by Milton's Paradise Lost.

 

Satan may have fallen from heaven but it's clear from scripture he still has access to it as the "accuser of the brethren". Remember Job?

 

Satan will lead another rebellion against God that will draw another 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him. Forcing the text back into the past would alter the entire meaning of the scriptures around it. Every verse in the passage in succession begins with the word "And" meaning it follows the previous event. You'll find this same thing occur in the Genesis 1 creation account.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's still a future event. Too many people have unwittingly had their theology inspired by Milton's Paradise Lost.

 

Satan may have fallen from heaven but it's clear from scripture he still has access to it as the "accuser of the brethren". Remember Job?

 

Satan will lead another rebellion against God that will draw another 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him. Forcing the text back into the past would alter the entire meaning of the scriptures around it. Every verse in the passage in succession begins with the word "And" meaning it follows the previous event. You'll find this same thing occur in the Genesis 1 creation account.

 

I've never read Milton, so I can't say he's had any direct influence on my theology. I'm yet to be convinced because you cannot temporally equate OT prophecy directly to Revelation because much happened within God's plan between those two times. Prophecies have been fulfilled and yet some still remain. Also, you cannot completely equate the Hebrew "and" with the Greek because their sentence structure and ways of communicating ideas are drastically different; so I'm not sure how valid of a point that is (though I will investigate it). I'm also uncertain of your timeline and interpretation that another 1/3 of angels will fall. This explanation does not adequately account for the immediate context of the woman in travail and resulting child because it interprets that portion as highly figurative while taking the portion regarding Michael and the fall of Satan much more literally.

 

However, you and Eric have given some good material to think about. I'll definitely put some more study into it when time allows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Satan and the fallen angels have already been cast out of the Thrid Heaven, but they haven't fully materialized upon the earth.

He is called the Prince of the power of the air.  I know it's hard to understand, but we are speaking of the spiritual realm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Satan and the fallen angels have already been cast out of the Third Heaven, but they haven't fully materialized upon the earth.

He is called the Prince of the power of the air.  I know it's hard to understand, but we are speaking of the spiritual realm.

beameup,

 

Satan and his bad angels will become earth bound at the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment. Then the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ Revelation 11:15. They don't come down to the earth at that time but use it as a prison Isaiah 24:21-23.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

beameup,

 

Satan and his bad angels will become earth bound at the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment. Then the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ Revelation 11:15. They don't come down to the earth at that time but use it as a prison Isaiah 24:21-23.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,

having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12

Most, but not all, consider that the Devil himself will posess the AntiChrist.

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.  Rev 12:9  eis=into, unto, to, towards, among

 

We understand that there is a "third heaven" and a "second heaven" and a "first heaven".

And then there is the (surface of the) earth, as well as abodes inside the earth.

Some suggest that the Devil and his Angels are presently in the "second heaven".

Edited by beameup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,

having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12

Most, but not all, consider that the Devil himself will posess the AntiChrist.

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.  Rev 12:9  eis=into, unto, to, towards, among

 

We understand that there is a "third heaven" and a "second heaven" and a "first heaven".

And then there is the (surface of the) earth, as well as abodes inside the earth.

Some suggest that the Devil and his Angels are presently in the "second heaven".

 

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,

having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12

Most, but not all, consider that the Devil himself will posess the AntiChrist.

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.  Rev 12:9  eis=into, unto, to, towards, among

 

We understand that there is a "third heaven" and a "second heaven" and a "first heaven".

And then there is the (surface of the) earth, as well as abodes inside the earth.

Some suggest that the Devil and his Angels are presently in the "second heaven".

 

 

Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and      his angels were cast out with him.

 

Satan and his angels have control of earths kingdoms now and access to the third heaven but they will become earth bound at the middle of the tribulation.

Edited by Eric Stahl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never read Milton, so I can't say he's had any direct influence on my theology. I'm yet to be convinced because you cannot temporally equate OT prophecy directly to Revelation because much happened within God's plan between those two times. Prophecies have been fulfilled and yet some still remain. Also, you cannot completely equate the Hebrew "and" with the Greek because their sentence structure and ways of communicating ideas are drastically different; so I'm not sure how valid of a point that is (though I will investigate it). I'm also uncertain of your timeline and interpretation that another 1/3 of angels will fall. This explanation does not adequately account for the immediate context of the woman in travail and resulting child because it interprets that portion as highly figurative while taking the portion regarding Michael and the fall of Satan much more literally.

 

However, you and Eric have given some good material to think about. I'll definitely put some more study into it when time allows.

Stay away from the Hebrew and Greek and stick with the English. The English establishes the method of interpretation throughout the bible. The Hebrew and Greek will only mess you up.

 

The war in heaven takes place AFTER the woman flees into the wilderness which is a reference to the second part of the tribulation. Why would John have a vision of a rebellion that took place before the garden of Eden? It would be totally irrelevant to what is taking place at the time of his vision and would be illogical in the timeline to interpreted it that way. That's why it has to be read that another rebellion will take place yet future. Notice too this verse:

 

[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

This announcement takes place AFTER Satan is tossed. It would make no sense in the timeline of things or the flow of the passage to say the event took place over 6,000 years ago. It's obviously a future event that takes place just before the Second Coming.

 

 

 

You didn't necessarily have to read Paradise Lost for it's theology to pass into your understanding. It is a false teaching that has passed to most people unwittingly like the general belief that the "Magi" were made up of only three men who visited Jesus when he was in the manger. We know this isn't true but this false teaching has passed to most people unwittingly.

 

Another false teaching that most people (saved and unsaved) believe is that Satan is ruling in hell or that his kingdom is in hell. This is false yet it's what is commonly perceived among most people. This is another teaching that passed over from John Milton's writings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,

having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12

Most, but not all, consider that the Devil himself will posess the AntiChrist.

 

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.  Rev 12:9  eis=into, unto, to, towards, among

 

We understand that there is a "third heaven" and a "second heaven" and a "first heaven".

And then there is the (surface of the) earth, as well as abodes inside the earth.

Some suggest that the Devil and his Angels are presently in the "second heaven".

Good quote. For Satan to "come down" he has to be up there. He may have fallen from heaven which signified his fallen from a position of authority as a cherub but he still has access to heaven as the accuser of the brethren. It's not until the war in heaven that he is tossed once and for all.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stay away from the Hebrew and Greek and stick with the English. The English establishes the method of interpretation throughout the bible. The Hebrew and Greek will only mess you up.

 

The war in heaven takes place AFTER the woman flees into the wilderness which is a reference to the second part of the tribulation. Why would John have a vision of a rebellion that took place before the garden of Eden? It would be totally irrelevant to what is taking place at the time of his vision and would be illogical in the timeline to interpreted it that way. That's why it has to be read that another rebellion will take place yet future. Notice too this verse:

 

[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

This announcement takes place AFTER Satan is tossed. It would make no sense in the timeline of things or the flow of the passage to say the event took place over 6,000 years ago. It's obviously a future event that takes place just before the Second Coming.

 

 

 

You didn't necessarily have to read Paradise Lost for it's theology to pass into your understanding. It is a false teaching that has passed to most people unwittingly like the general belief that the "Magi" were made up of only three men who visited Jesus when he was in the manger. We know this isn't true but this false teaching has passed to most people unwittingly.

 

Another false teaching that most people (saved and unsaved) believe is that Satan is ruling in hell or that his kingdom is in hell. This is false yet it's what is commonly perceived among most people. This is another teaching that passed over from John Milton's writings.

 

 

Revelation 12:14

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (1260 days), from the face of the serpent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revelation 12:14

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (1260 days), from the face of the serpent.

Yes, like I said, after the Tribulation begins. Technically, the "great tribulation" doesn't began until the second half of the seven years.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stay away from the Hebrew and Greek and stick with the English. The English establishes the method of interpretation throughout the bible. The Hebrew and Greek will only mess you up.

 

The war in heaven takes place AFTER the woman flees into the wilderness which is a reference to the second part of the tribulation. Why would John have a vision of a rebellion that took place before the garden of Eden? It would be totally irrelevant to what is taking place at the time of his vision and would be illogical in the timeline to interpreted it that way. That's why it has to be read that another rebellion will take place yet future. Notice too this verse:

 

[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

This announcement takes place AFTER Satan is tossed. It would make no sense in the timeline of things or the flow of the passage to say the event took place over 6,000 years ago. It's obviously a future event that takes place just before the Second Coming.

 

 

 

You didn't necessarily have to read Paradise Lost for it's theology to pass into your understanding. It is a false teaching that has passed to most people unwittingly like the general belief that the "Magi" were made up of only three men who visited Jesus when he was in the manger. We know this isn't true but this false teaching has passed to most people unwittingly.

 

Another false teaching that most people (saved and unsaved) believe is that Satan is ruling in hell or that his kingdom is in hell. This is false yet it's what is commonly perceived among most people. This is another teaching that passed over from John Milton's writings.

 

Can't say I've ever believed much of the things you say came from Milton or the like as you describe above. It's a moot point and painting me into a Milton-esque box isn't all that accurate.

 

Regarding your interpretation of the passage and point out of v. 10, wouldn't a future interpretation of this statement require that salvation is not yet come? Perhaps it's not the salvation brought by Jesus? If not, then what is it referring to? If this is a future event then the power of Christ is also still far off. I think you misunderstand my interpretation of the timeline. I readily believe that Satan had access to heaven (in some capacity) in OT times (as evidenced in Job), but that this access was cut off when he was cast out sometime before the birth of Christ and his defeat was ensured at Calvary.

 

Finally, on your exhortation to ignore Greek and Hebrew, I flatly disagree. Depth of meaning and clarity is easy to lose in translation, particularly between a language that is highly inflective and one that is not. The semantic range of an English word can overlap multiple words in Greek and/or Hebrew and vice versa. For the average reader, yes, study English and learn it better and the historical meanings of words for a better understanding of the Bible. Greek and Hebrew should not be approached casually, but rather should be earnestly studied. I don't just pick up a concordance and look up all the definitions for a word and choose the one that makes the most sense to me. That method I highly disagree with. I study Greek and Hebrew in depth and it adds to my understanding. Ignoring the differences in the way languages communicate information solely on the basis of giving preference to one is folly. That doesn't mean I believe the KJV was inaccurately translated or try to correct it, but I study original languages because limits the available semantic range of the English words used and adds clarity to the intended meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The woman Israel will flee to the river ford on the Arnon River 1/3 of the way south on the Jordan side of the dead sea to be with the survivors of Moab.      Notice Israel is not going to Petra.

 

Isaiah 16:1-5

1 Send ye the lamb(Jesus) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

 

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

 

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

 

4 Let mine outcasts (Israel) dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

 

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he(Jesus) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Edited by Eric Stahl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revelation 12 and Daniel 12

 

 

At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation. [...]

Hi,

 

Would you mind if I disagree, based upon the scriptures of course, with that which was stated and have a bit of room to expound?  or would you think it better for me to begin a separate thread?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Would you mind if I disagree, based upon the scriptures of course, with that which was stated and have a bit of room to expound?  or would you think it better for me to begin a separate thread?

I always want to learn. lets talk here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't say I've ever believed much of the things you say came from Milton or the like as you describe above. It's a moot point and painting me into a Milton-esque box isn't all that accurate.

 

Regarding your interpretation of the passage and point out of v. 10, wouldn't a future interpretation of this statement require that salvation is not yet come? Perhaps it's not the salvation brought by Jesus? If not, then what is it referring to? If this is a future event then the power of Christ is also still far off. I think you misunderstand my interpretation of the timeline. I readily believe that Satan had access to heaven (in some capacity) in OT times (as evidenced in Job), but that this access was cut off when he was cast out sometime before the birth of Christ and his defeat was ensured at Calvary.

 

Finally, on your exhortation to ignore Greek and Hebrew, I flatly disagree. Depth of meaning and clarity is easy to lose in translation, particularly between a language that is highly inflective and one that is not. The semantic range of an English word can overlap multiple words in Greek and/or Hebrew and vice versa. For the average reader, yes, study English and learn it better and the historical meanings of words for a better understanding of the Bible. Greek and Hebrew should not be approached casually, but rather should be earnestly studied. I don't just pick up a concordance and look up all the definitions for a word and choose the one that makes the most sense to me. That method I highly disagree with. I study Greek and Hebrew in depth and it adds to my understanding. Ignoring the differences in the way languages communicate information solely on the basis of giving preference to one is folly. That doesn't mean I believe the KJV was inaccurately translated or try to correct it, but I study original languages because limits the available semantic range of the English words used and adds clarity to the intended meaning.

There are varying kinds of salvation. Some are yet future.

 

Hebrews 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

I Peter 1:5- Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

Messing with the Greek and Hebrew will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. If you truly believe that the KJV is the pure words of God why mess with the Greek or Hebrew? God gave you in English the words that he wanted you to have. Use an English dictionary to find the meaning of the words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are varying kinds of salvation. Some are yet future.

 

Hebrews 9:28- So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

I Peter 1:5- Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

 

 

So perhaps the real difference in what we're talking about here is whether the salvation referenced in verse 10 is intended to reference as a whole or collective concept or as an individual event. If you understand it as an individual reference, then I understand what you're trying to say. However, I think context of repeated collective statements (e.g., our, them, the kingdom of God) point toward salvation as a whole concept and intended to mean work Christ accomplishing on our behalf. If that's the case, then it is not far off, but immediately available. Additionally, salvation is truly a future event, as you point out in 1 Peter 1:5 because what we are saved from is an eternity separated from God in a placed called hell because of our sin, which is not fully affected until we pass from this life into eternity; so in a sense, we have assurance of salvation when we die.

 

 

Messing with the Greek and Hebrew will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. If you truly believe that the KJV is the pure words of God why mess with the Greek or Hebrew? God gave you in English the words that he wanted you to have. Use an English dictionary to find the meaning of the words.

 

This argument can be turned completely in reverse and hold the same truth.  If you stick to only an English dictionary it will lead to nothing but adding or subtracting from the word of God. It happens all the time. English words have range of meaning that can overlap multiple Greek or Hebrew words. Likewise, Greek/Hebrew words have a range of meaning that can overlap multiple English words. Simply checking an English dictionary can, and often does, lead to someone choosing a definition that is far from the intended meaning. Here is a very basic, and exaggerated, example:

 

Romans 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

body:

1. the physical structure and material substance of an animal or plant, living or dead.

2. a corpse; carcass

3. the trunk, or main mass of a thing

4. the physical structure of a human being or animal, not including the head, limbs, and tail; trunk; torso.

5. the principal mass of a building.

6. the main part or majority of something

 

Is the "body of Christ" here a corpse? The rest of the verse is talking about being dead in the body...? What about the mass of a building? Is it talking about the church building then? Perhaps it means the material substance of Christ? The Greek rules out some of the possibilities.

 

Word translated "body" is somatos (σώματος).

1. the living body of both men or animals

2. planets or stars (heavenly bodies)

3. a large or small number of men closely united into one society or family

 

This leaves out "corpse;carcass"; that would be the Greek word nekros (νεκρός). Building or physical structure? No, that's also not in the range of somatos. Likewise, planets and stars is not in the English range of "body" so it's out. We're left with "living body", "number of men closely united", "majority/main part", and "physical structure of a human being" because they are the only points of overlap. From Eph 2:8-9 that being a part of a church or in a building doesn't save you or make one dead to the law, so those two are out. We're left only with "living body of men" and "the physical structure of a human being" which can essentially be understood to be the same thing. The beautiful truth lost in translation from Greek to English is that it specifically refers to a living body. We're dead to the Law because Christ rose again. This is hinted at, but not emphasized, by the second half of the verse.

 

Suppose the someone looked only at the English dictionary and decided to go with "building" or "main part" and say that we're made dead to the Law by the Church or church building? That's a heresy called Catholicism. I've heard that very assertion on more than one occasion.

 

A similar study of 1 Cor 12:25 would show that where the same words are used (body and somati) is intended to mean the other point of overlap and mean the church or collecitve group.

 

Consider also the word "baptize". The English definition is:

1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism

2. to cleanse spiritually; intiate or dedicate by purifying

3. to give a name to at baptism; christen.

 

These definitions give, and even emphasize, alternate modes of baptism as well as baptismal regeneration. I doubt you would agree with either of those concepts. The Greek word ALWAYS used in the Bible for baptize is baptizo (βαπτίζω, or an inflected form of it). It means:

 

1. to dip repeatedly

2. to immerse

3. to submerge

 

The Greek word used makes clear that baptism is by immersion only while the English leaves it open for sprinkling and pouring. You absolutely cannot deny that this mistake is made in abundance. Studying and using Greek and Hebrew only brings confusion and error when it is done carelessly or maliciously, juse like English.

Edited by TheSword

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always want to learn. lets talk here.

Ok, thank you for the wonderful opportunity to open the Scripture together.

 

If I may ask you a question to begin with?

 

Where do you personally find the "7 year tribulation" in Scripture?  What I am asking for is not the explanation, but simply the location in Scripture of such a teaching.   If you could please list the specific Bible references, either in Short [ex.  Gen 1:1; etc] or in full quotation: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1"  I would very much appreciate it, that I may see the passages for myself, and then ask further questions for dialogue.  I do not want to jump ahead of anyone and assume, so please, if you will present the texts plainly, and then we may continue from there.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daniel 9:24-27

There is still one "week" [shabuwa`] of years (7 years) yet unfulfilled in this prophecy.

 

In the same way, Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and stopped mid-sentence and declared

that the prophecy had been fulfilled.  There remains yet complete fulfillment of the rest of this Prophecy.

See Luke 4:18-21 (see Isaiah 61:1-3).  The "Day of Vengence" is the Battle of Armageddon.

This really is basic Prophecy 101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, thank you for the wonderful opportunity to open the Scripture together.

 

If I may ask you a question to begin with?

 

Where do you personally find the "7 year tribulation" in Scripture?  What I am asking for is not the explanation, but simply the location in Scripture of such a teaching.   If you could please list the specific Bible references, either in Short [ex.  Gen 1:1; etc] or in full quotation: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1"  I would very much appreciate it, that I may see the passages for myself, and then ask further questions for dialogue.  I do not want to jump ahead of anyone and assume, so please, if you will present the texts plainly, and then we may continue from there.  :)

 

Revelation 11:1-14

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

((This is the last 42 months or 1/2 of 7 years when Jerusalem is under the control of the antichrist after he breaks the 7 year covenant from Daniel 9:27))

 

((Next the first 1260 days or 1/2 of the 7 years occurs while the two witnesses do their testimony.))

 

 

 

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Edited by Eric Stahl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revelation 11:1-14

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

((This is the last 42 months or 1/2 of 7 years when Jerusalem is under the control of the antichrist after he breaks the 7 year covenant from Daniel 9:27))

 

((Next the first 1260 days or 1/2 of the 7 years occurs while the two witnesses do their testimony.))

 

 

 

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

What if I told you, based upon the Scripture, that those 1,260 are already fulfilled, and were years, not days?  And that they are not part of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9?  and that the two witnesses have already witnessed of their testimony?

 

Would you like to see this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daniel 9:24-27

There is still one "week" [shabuwa`] of years (7 years) yet unfulfilled in this prophecy.

 

In the same way, Jesus read from Isaiah 61 and stopped mid-sentence and declared

that the prophecy had been fulfilled.  There remains yet complete fulfillment of the rest of this Prophecy.

See Luke 4:18-21 (see Isaiah 61:1-3).  The "Day of Vengence" is the Battle of Armageddon.

This really is basic Prophecy 101

 

I disagree, would you like to see why?  May we look at the Scriptures together?

 

Can you explain to me what Jesus meant here:

 

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

What "time" was Jesus referring to?

 

Or can you tell me the same for what Jesus said here in regards to the "time":

 

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matthew 26:18

 

I have questions for those which believe in futurism or preterism.  Would any like to see if they may answer them for me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, would you like to see why?  May we look at the Scriptures together?

 

Can you explain to me what Jesus meant here:

 

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

 

What "time" was Jesus referring to?

 

Or can you tell me the same for what Jesus said here in regards to the "time":

 

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Matthew 26:18

 

I have questions for those which believe in futurism or preterism.  Would any like to see if they may answer them for me?

 

kairos (καιρός) - it's an appointed or certain time. Mark 1:15 is Jesus announcement that He is beginning His earthly ministry. Matthew 26:18 is referencing Jesus' appointed time of glory and revelation (i.e. cruicifixion).

 

If you're about to assert that the time and the two witnesses refer to the OT prophets and the time leading up to Christ then you're going to make another major eisegetical error and force an understanding that is not in harmony with the immediate context of either of those verses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...