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Nouthetic Counseling


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You that think that all depression us a result of direct sin are entitled to your opinions. Lets hope you never have to deal with someone with post-paryum ir other kinds of depression thst isn't simply what has been referred to as an attitude of such.

Yes, I do realize that sin began in tghe garden. Im not a neophyte in scripture, I promise that. ALL sickness is a direct result of the sin that entered the wotld then. So, if you are going to say no to any physical help for mental issues, then don't go to any doc for any reason or it'll be a double standard .

Scott, what you are referring to is sin. But not all depression fits that category.

*shrugs* I make no apology for believing that meds are sometimes needed. Nor do I believe God condemns all who seek that kind of help...and its a shame that some people do, claiming that if someone uses them they aren't relying on God? Hogwash.

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So, according to some on here I shouldn't take Epilepsy medication b/c my condition is sin?  That is essentially what some of you are suggesting with your posts.  Thank you, Happy Christian.  I remember a conversation about this on Facebook, one time.  You are always a voice of reason.

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So let me ask this-does anyone believe that, due to damage in the womb, abuse of substances by a mother which in the womb, cannot be the CAUSE of someon's poor behavior? That person is just a wicked sinner, that's it-their choice, nothing more.

 

So, pumoing a baby boy with female hormones while their own system is forming, does nothing-they just deicde to be gay? See, I'm not saying someone was 'born to be that way', I am saying, parents do things that cause damage to a child before they can even make a choice, and those things can cause an artificially-produced effect in their brains, causing them to lean a certain way. I'm not saying a person is 'just born that way", I'm saying, lazy/abusive, addicted/sinning/ignorant parents can do things to damage a child, which then damages their ability to MAKE good decisions, or at least impairs that ability.

 

Then put that together with a society determined to direct children and adults into bad, wicked behaviour: teachers, entertainment, etc, everything going against those who are already susceptible, at the least, due to environmental damage in their system, sometimes to the point of literally having no conscience. Sometimes, a seared conscience is not just the result of someone ignoring the conscience, but damage done.

 

Remember, the Bile speaks in revelation of those who the Lord will judge for destroying the earth (Rev 11:18), as well as judgment against those who offend the little ones. Can someone truly be judged against if forces beyond their control damage them in such a way that they can't reasonably make good decisions? Can sin truly awaken in one who has been damaged, before an ability to judge right from wrong, to the point of not being able to make such a judgment?

 

Granted, ALL such things are, indeed, aresult of sin, but whose sin?

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Well, your thoughts are more rational than most Christians.  If I don't take Dilantin for Epilepsy 400 mg. daily, I could die.  I already have scars from having Grand Mall Seizures, on my body, to begin with.  I think my neurologist, and not "Armchair Neurologists" has a better grip on my medical history.  I have a lesion on my brain, from when I was a baby, when I fell out of my highchair.  It never healed.  If God wants it to heal, He will heal it. 

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I think some need to realize that mankind has reached such an epic proportion of sin, that we have damaged ourselve, by damaging our children, even while in the womb. The trash we eat and drink and smoke, what we ignore as corporations alter the very food that God has provided for us in creation by genetic manipulation, by over-processing to the point of emptiness, to, yes, sometimes/often unnecessary medications that doctors and the government sometimes actually forces upon people, industrial wastes like flouride in the water and toothpaste, and of course, if its in the water, it goes into the very fruits and vegetables we use the water on in gardens. We poison the temple of the Lord daily with what we fill them with-and the Lord said that those that destroy His temple, He will destroy.

 

So is it any wonder that we are reaping what we have sown? We are sickly, diseased, weak, obese, toothless, blind, bald(ing), as well as mentally befouled, all things directly related to poor nutrition and poisoning and deficiencies in vitamins and minerals. And all this in, like, just the last 100 years.

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One word:  "Hormones"   hahaha

 

I used to be staunchly against any and all clinical depression and meds.  But the older I get, the more people I meet, and the more hormones I experience (ugh) the more I realize there is just too much I do not know in order to judge this topic.

 

I do know we have a retired pastor's wife in our church and she has been on anti depressants for decades, and one day a few years ago she took an Ambien, and somehow that drug interacted with her other drugs and sent her into horrible three year spiral of the most horrible depression ever.  She's been in and out of hospitals ever since, going between feeling okay to feeling suicidal.  It's really scary and I feel bad for her.   I do know that as your body chemistry changes, the medicines change how they react in your body, and that's when it gets kind of horrible.   However I know others who are on the meds and they seem just fine, and much better than otherwise.  It is between them and God.

 

One thing with the hormones I've noticed is that literally I get what is called a "panic attack" out of nowhere.  I might be relaxing on the sofa, but suddenly it's like I am having a heart attack...my heart speeds up dramatically, and I can't breathe good, and I feel lightheaded and numb.  It is REALLY scary, and is ER-worthy.  The first time I had one I literally thought I was dying.   That particular time I was a tad low potassium plus hormones.   I get them once in awhile but thankfully not too often, although I do get hormonal heart palps which are a little nervewracking.  Plus women often get various and assorted depressions.

 

I personally am okay with short term meds (like having a bottle of something in the cupboard for panic attacks or emergencies).   Personally I'm afraid of the longer term meds, although I can't say I am against them....because like I said, I am not smart enough to know for sure what is going on in everyone's mind and body, and it is impossible to tell someone else how they should or should not handle their problems.   I would only advise to use meds as a last resort.

 

But hey, they used to think epilepsy was demon possession, and they know now that it is misfiring circuits in the brain (basically), and that it can be genetic.  There is so much that only God knows about our minds and bodies.

 

Uke....I agree...our genes are getting weaker and weaker.  Actually my idea on the subject is that now that we are vaccinated and have health technology keeping us alive (instead of being wiped out by plague and diptheria and typhus), weaker people are surviving to reproduce.  So we have a whole several generations full of weaker genetics.  People who probably should have died as a kid from something or other are now surviving thanks to modern health care (for which I am thankful) but now we have weaker genetics being passed on to offspring.  This is the main thing I attribute allergies, autoimmune disease, and cancer to...and probably psychological disease too.

 

I don't think the internet helps psychological disease.  Just saying.   I know it doesn't help ME any, when I'm depressed or discouraged.  haha.

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One word:  "Hormones"   hahaha

 

I used to be staunchly against any and all clinical depression and meds.  But the older I get, the more people I meet, and the more hormones I experience (ugh) the more I realize there is just too much I do not know in order to judge this topic.

 

I do know we have a retired pastor's wife in our church and she has been on anti depressants for decades, and one day a few years ago she took an Ambien, and somehow that drug interacted with her other drugs and sent her into horrible three year spiral of the most horrible depression ever.  She's been in and out of hospitals ever since, going between feeling okay to feeling suicidal.  It's really scary and I feel bad for her.   I do know that as your body chemistry changes, the medicines change how they react in your body, and that's when it gets kind of horrible.   However I know others who are on the meds and they seem just fine, and much better than otherwise.  It is between them and God.

 

One thing with the hormones I've noticed is that literally I get what is called a "panic attack" out of nowhere.  I might be relaxing on the sofa, but suddenly it's like I am having a heart attack...my heart speeds up dramatically, and I can't breathe good, and I feel lightheaded and numb.  It is REALLY scary, and is ER-worthy.  The first time I had one I literally thought I was dying.   That particular time I was a tad low potassium plus hormones.   I get them once in awhile but thankfully not too often, although I do get hormonal heart palps which are a little nervewracking.  Plus women often get various and assorted depressions.

 

I personally am okay with short term meds (like having a bottle of something in the cupboard for panic attacks or emergencies).   Personally I'm afraid of the longer term meds, although I can't say I am against them....because like I said, I am not smart enough to know for sure what is going on in everyone's mind and body, and it is impossible to tell someone else how they should or should not handle their problems.   I would only advise to use meds as a last resort.

 

But hey, they used to think epilepsy was demon possession, and they know now that it is misfiring circuits in the brain (basically), and that it can be genetic.  There is so much that only God knows about our minds and bodies.

 

Uke....I agree...our genes are getting weaker and weaker.  Actually my idea on the subject is that now that we are vaccinated and have health technology keeping us alive (instead of being wiped out by plague and diptheria and typhus), weaker people are surviving to reproduce.  So we have a whole several generations full of weaker genetics.  People who probably should have died as a kid from something or other are now surviving thanks to modern health care (for which I am thankful) but now we have weaker genetics being passed on to offspring.  This is the main thing I attribute allergies, autoimmune disease, and cancer to...and probably psychological disease too.

 

I don't think the internet helps psychological disease.  Just saying.   I know it doesn't help ME any, when I'm depressed or discouraged.  haha.

 

Yep!  And, "Armchair Doctors" aren't qualified to give advice on something that a neurologist has studied for years.  God knows what is best for our individual bodies.  And, unless someone is going to pay my medical bills?  It is between me and Christ.  :)

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Scott, what you are referring to is sin. But not all depression fits that category. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

 

Sister "HappyChristian,"

 

That is why I indicated in my post >#59 that a definition for "depression" needed to be supplied before the matter could be examined according to the principles and standard of God's Word.  However, I would contend that someone simply claiming that depression is not a sin requires us to accept that declaration on the authority of that individual, rather than upon the authority of God's Word.  Yet we believers are required by the Lord our God to prove (examine and try) all things according to the standard of God's principles as revealed in His Word. 

 

So, according to some on here I shouldn't take Epilepsy medication b/c my condition is sin?  That is essentially what some of you are suggesting with your posts. 

 

Sister "Candlelight,"

 

I am not certain that you are including me in your statement above.  However, since it appears within the context of this thread that you are likely including all of those who have posted things contrary to your position, I am guessing that you are including me therein.  If this conclusion is correct, then I believe that it is appropriate for me to indicate that your opening statement above represents a misunderstanding of my position. 

 

Actually, thus far I have not directly presented the depths or details of my position on this matter.  Rather, I have simply asked some very hard and spiritually important questions.  However, my personal position on the matter would not at all stand contrary to your taking medication for your epilepsy.  Your epilepsy is a physical problem in your physical body, specifically in that physical part called "the brain."  Certainly, physical ailments require physical solutions such as physical doctoring and physical medication. 

 

However, it must be understood that a problem with the brain is not the same as a problem with the mind.  The brain is a part of an individual's physical body; the mind is a part of an individual's intangible soul.  The brain can be treated physically, since it is a physical element.  The mind must be treated spiritually, since it is a soulish element.  God's Holy Word does not speak much (if at all) concerning the treatment of an individual's brain.  However, God's Holy Word speaks a great deal concerning the matter of an individual's mind.  Now, since the Lord our God and Creator is the One who is the most knowledgeable concerning the human soul (and mind), yea the One who has perfect knowledge concerning the human soul (and mind), I myself will choose to take His Word for such things rather than the word of human psychoanalysts (who in the great majority of cases are not spiritually and Biblically minded believers). 

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One word: "Hormones" hahaha


Haven't you been following this thread?

Can't be because the links say so.
You can test chemically for hormones so it can't possibly have anything to do with hormones. ........
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....because like I said, I am not smart enough to know for sure what is going on in everyone's mind and body, and it is impossible to tell someone else how they should or should not handle their problems. 

 

Sister "Kitagrl,"

 

Actually, no human individual whatsoever at all (including the doctors, whether medical or psychoanalytical) know fully "what is going on" in another individual's mind.  In fact, according to the truth of God's Holy Word, the individual himself or herself does not even understand all that is "going on" in his or her mind. 

 

Yet it is not precisely accurate according to God's Word to say that it is impossible to tell an individual how he or she should handle problems in the thinking and attitude of his or her mind.  In fact, those who are called to preach and teach the truth of God's Word are required by the Lord our God Himself to tell individuals how they should handle such problems of thinking and attitude.  Yet we are not called to provide that instruction in accord with the human teaching of psychoanalysis.  Rather, we are called to provide that instruction in accord with the divine teaching of God's Holy Word.

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Sister "HappyChristian,"

 

That is why I indicated in my post >#59 that a definition for "depression" needed to be supplied before the matter could be examined according to the principles and standard of God's Word.  However, I would contend that someone simply claiming that depression is not a sin requires us to accept that declaration on the authority of that individual, rather than upon the authority of God's Word.  Yet we believers are required by the Lord our God to prove (examine and try) all things according to the standard of God's principles as revealed in His Word. 

 

 

Sister "Candlelight,"

 

I am not certain that you are including me in your statement above.  However, since it appears within the context of this thread that you are likely including all of those who have posted things contrary to your position, I am guessing that you are including me therein.  If this conclusion is correct, then I believe that it is appropriate for me to indicate that your opening statement above represents a misunderstanding of my position. 

 

Actually, thus far I have not directly presented the depths or details of my position on this matter.  Rather, I have simply asked some very hard and spiritually important questions.  However, my personal position on the matter would not at all stand contrary to your taking medication for your epilepsy.  Your epilepsy is a physical problem in your physical body, specifically in that physical part called "the brain."  Certainly, physical ailments require physical solutions such as physical doctoring and physical medication. 

 

However, it must be understood that a problem with the brain is not the same as a problem with the mind.  The brain is a part of an individual's physical body; the mind is a part of an individual's intangible soul.  The brain can be treated physically, since it is a physical element.  The mind must be treated spiritually, since it is a soulish element.  God's Holy Word does not speak much (if at all) concerning the treatment of an individual's brain.  However, God's Holy Word speaks a great deal concerning the matter of an individual's mind.  Now, since the Lord our God and Creator is the One who is the most knowledgeable concerning the human soul (and mind), yea the One who has perfect knowledge concerning the human soul (and mind), I myself will choose to take His Word for such things rather than the word of human psychoanalysts (who in the great majority of cases are not spiritually and Biblically minded believers). 

Thank you for your reply PSM.  I was making a general statement to those who aren't qualified to know how the human brain works, physically.  I was just clarifying that my problem is physical in nature.  It is also hereditary, as well.  Awhile back, I met a woman who is studying holistic medicine.  She demanded that I go on her "special" herbs and vitamins.  One of them was called a "tinture" which she made soaked in 80 proof Vodka.  When I told her that I would not take anything with alcohol in it, she went off on me and said that my neurologist was a nut and just interested in taking my money.  Well, I have always had success with him, and he is very conservative.  My doctors are with the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, in Cleveland, OH and I am certain I have great care.  He was also the only person who suggested I go to a chiropractor for my tension headaches.  Well, he was correct.  When I get a bad headache, the chiropractor makes adjustments to my back, and I am as good as new.  My husband also put a luan board under my side of our mattress, will memory foam, across the entire bed.  I was also instructed to buy an orthopedic pillow.  I am fine now, and don't get the horrible headaches I was having for a long period of time.  When we get a little extra money, my husband and I are going to by a good mattress.

If I came across blunt, I apologize.  I just get tired of having conversations with Christians who think our good medical doctors don't know what they are doing.  And, sadly b/c of Obamacare things will change drastically.  The Cleveland Clinic Foundation stands to loose 3,000 employess throughout all the centers, and also 3 million dollars b/c of the A.C.A.

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Good speculation on all sides I think. I would add from experience and later research that much hormonal imbalance and related mental illness is caused by all the issues UK Mike brought up. The distortion of foods (and all related and ingested) over the years in our country has wreaked havoc on the endocrine system of America. All hormonal problems are directly tied to the diseases of the thyroid, pancreas (diabetes), pituitary glands. These diseases result in serious mental issues of all types.

 

I am skeptical on the prenatal female hormones making boys gay idea however. I spent 3 years as a drill sergeant at Benning and had access to studies the army had done on entry level separations of homosexuals. 96% admitted molestation and indoctrination into homo activity at young ages by older men. The other 4% wouldn't answer the question. These were military wide stats over a 10 year period. The homo lifestyle is absolutely learned behavior.

The female hormones may have something to do with their softer, gentler, narrow shouldered natures, but that is not what made them queers.

Uncle Creepy or father buggerer at the local diocese getting alone with them is what made them homos.

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Good speculation on all sides I think. I would add from experience and later research that much hormonal imbalance and related mental illness is caused by all the issues UK Mike brought up. The distortion of foods (and all related and ingested) over the years in our country has wreaked havoc on the endocrine system of America. All hormonal problems are directly tied to the diseases of the thyroid, pancreas (diabetes), pituitary glands. These diseases result in serious mental issues of all types.

 

I am skeptical on the prenatal female hormones making boys gay idea however. I spent 3 years as a drill sergeant at Benning and had access to studies the army had done on entry level separations of homosexuals. 96% admitted molestation and indoctrination into homo activity at young ages by older men. The other 4% wouldn't answer the question. These were military wide stats over a 10 year period. The homo lifestyle is absolutely learned behavior.

The female hormones may have something to do with their softer, gentler, narrow shouldered natures, but that is not what made them queers.

Uncle Creepy or father buggerer at the local diocese getting alone with them is what made them homos.

 
You've certainly hit the nail on that, wretched.  When I was an inner city school teacher, a very effeminate 5th grade boy came to me, and told me that his mother's boyfriend was molesting him for years.  It wasn't shocking to me, as this boy, was made fun of by the others boys on the playground.  I reported it to the principal and we called in Child Protective Services.  Then, of course, this sick man went after me with death threats.  Oh, how those years bring back some good memories.  LOL

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1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

We are to cast all our cares on the Lord.  If something tragic happens that causes our minds to fear, or to become burdened, we are to cast our cares upon Him. 

If, instead of casting those cares upon Him, we dwell upon them and allow them to burden us even more... even to the point that we take a mind altering drug in order to assuage our emotions, then we have sinned.  We have allowed the situation become the controlling factor in our lives.

If you cut your leg off, you can cast your cares upon the Lord, but you'd still best see a doctor pretty lickity-split.

 

I agree-not everything that psycs and doctors say is a medicine need, is, indeed, a medicine need-in fact, probably less than 5% are-most drugs do nothing more than deal with the symptom, while ignoring the cause, physically as well as mental. But there are things that we sometimes need assistance with, and of course, finding a proper doctor to help, one who seeks causes to deal with them-WHY are you depressed, WHY do you have gallstones, WHY WHY WHY? Not, Oh, gallstones? Here, lets just take out that pesky gall bladder! That'll fix it! Guess what? IT DOESN'T!  Unless one deals with WHY they have something like gallstones, even with no gall bladder, they willhave the symptoms and worse problems, becaue they are started in the liver, NOT the gall bladder. Seek the problem fix the problem and get on with life.

 

And on those occasional issues that it can't be fixed, but may be permanent, find what it is and seek at least something to help, and often, nutritional and supplemental things can help. This isn't denying God's help-we ought to be seeking direction and help and wisdom from God when we have problems, but neither do we ignore things that can help.

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