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What Ever Happened To Christmas?


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Spurgeon on Psalm 81 (extract) from the Treasury of David (The psalms)

Verse 2. Take a psalm. Select a sacred song, and then raise it with your hearty voices. And bring hither the timbrel. Beat on your tambourines, ye damsels, let the sound be loud and inspiriting. "Sound the trumpets, beat the drums." God is not to be served with misery but with mirthful music, sound ye then the loud timbrel, as of old ye smote it by "Egypt's dark sea." The pleasant harp with the psaltery. The timbrel for sound, must be joined by the harp for sweetness, and this by other stringed instruments for variety. Let the full compass of music be holiness unto the Lord.

Verse 3. Blow up the trumpet in the new moon. Announce the sacred month, the beginning of months, when the Lord brought his people out of the house of bondage. Clear and shrill let the summons be which calls all Israel to adore the Redeeming Lord. In the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. Obedience is to direct our worship, not whim and sentiment: God's appointment gives a solemnity to rites and times which no ceremonial pomp or hierarchical ordinance could confer. The Jews not only observed the ordained month, but that part of the month which had been divinely set apart. The Lord's people in the olden time welcomed the times appointed for worship; let us feel the same exultation, and never speak of the Sabbath as though it could be other than "a delight" and "honourable." Those who plead this passage will keep such feasts as the Lord appoints, but not those which Rome or Canterbury may ordain.

Verse 4. For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob. It was a precept binding upon all the tribes that a sacred season should be set apart to commemorate the Lord's mercy; and truly it was but the Lord's due, he had a right and a claim to such special homage. When it can be proved that the observance of Christmas, Whitsuntide, and other Popish festivals was ever instituted by a divine statute, we also will attend to them, but not till then. It is as much our duty to reject the traditions of men, as to observe the ordinances of the Lord. We ask concerning every rite and rubric, "Is this a law of the God of Jacob?" and if it be not clearly so, it is of no authority with us, who walk in Christian liberty.

 

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2 hours ago, Doc Flay said:

With all that said and done, I am going to give my Christmas tree a big hug, yes I am keeping it and no you have not convinced me of any wrong of holding to the traditions of Christmas that I have received from childhood! Merry Christmas!

 Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 
 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 
 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 

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3 hours ago, Doc Flay said:

With all that said and done, I am going to give my Christmas tree a big hug, yes I am keeping it and no you have not convinced me of any wrong of holding to the traditions of Christmas that I have received from childhood! Merry Christmas!

Ever wonder why, when Israel was taking the land of Canaan, the Lord commanded that they kill even the children of those nations? Its is primarily because they would bring along with them the traditions they had received as children, idolatries that the Lord didn't want them to observe. Sadly, they didn't always heed, and because of that, they fell also into idolatry, Molech worship and Baal worship, and worship in the groves in their high places, abominations before the Lord. I understand the traditions and joys of childhood, but I must, for the Lord's sake, reject even those if they are against my Lord.  I also remember the fun of drinking and carousing and womanizing when I was overseas in the Navy, but I reject those 'good times' because they are abominable before the Lord.

So please, hug your tree, Doc, but you might want to be silent next time your church sings "All to Jesus I surrender, all to Him I freely give..."

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Very good response, although I am not convinced of sin in the Observance of Christmas as it is. The sin of idolatry is what I am having a problem with in connection to general Christmas celebration today. I never think about Baal when I am singing "silent night".

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I suppose my main point in it all, is that there is only one reason that Dec 25 is attached to the birth of Jesus Christ, and that is because the Catholic institution used that day in the pagan Saturnalia and various other winter feasts, and declared it the feast of Jesus' birth, in order to make it more comfortable for those pagans to consider themselves 'Christian', while still indulging in the old pagan festivities. For a few hundred years before that, no believers ever celebrated Jesus' birth at any time, because scripture doesn't tell us when it is, nor makes mention of celebrating it.  So it is only Christmas because the Catholics said so, to compromise with pagans and make them feel comfortable-the very thing we fundamental Baptists claim we don't do. There is literally no other reason to celebrate the birth of Christ on that, or any other day.

As well, do some historical research: no Christians celebrated it for about the first 200 years that Christians were here in America-it was celebrated by Catholics and by secularists, but true Christians shunned it as being popish and non-Christian. Consider a quote:

"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas: first, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be said or sung in Latin or in English; and, secondly, because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Savior; and, consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority." (Charles Spurgeon, Sermon on Dec. 24, 1871).

This was the general belief for most Christians until maybe the middle to latter half of the 19th century. Before that it was known as a purely Catholic invention.

So you are certainly free to do as you please in such things, but while I may sing the songs, (and do so throughout the year), and while I may use some of the trappings in order to bring the gospel to others on this one day when some may be a little more tender toward hearing it, I otherwise reject its keeping because it is not just man-made, but based purely on Catholic compromise and Christianized paganism. Doesn't matter what my feelings are toward my childhood or family-they pale in comparison to my love for Christ. And, in the time I have not bought presents for my family, including my grandchildren, they all still love me just fine.

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Doctrinally speaking it is understood especially in fundamental circles that offence or causing offence is prohibited. I feel that my way of looking at  the subject as to whether or not that it is proper or improper to celebrate Christmas and my making light of your oppinion  has become offensive, and for this please accept my apology, and forgive me this sin. I should be very careful and sensitive in addressing this matter in light of my ignorance of the history of Christmas.  My daughters do not celebrate or observe Christmas for the very same reasons as have been posted here on this thread. I would like to learn more about the history of Christmas, and have a better understanding of not only my opinion on Christmas but other views too.  

 

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4 hours ago, Doc Flay said:

Doctrinally speaking it is understood especially in fundamental circles that offence or causing offence is prohibited. I feel that my way of looking at  the subject as to whether or not that it is proper or improper to celebrate Christmas and my making light of your oppinion  has become offensive, and for this please accept my apology, and forgive me this sin. I should be very careful and sensitive in addressing this matter in light of my ignorance of the history of Christmas.  My daughters do not celebrate or observe Christmas for the very same reasons as have been posted here on this thread. I would like to learn more about the history of Christmas, and have a better understanding of not only my opinion on Christmas but other views too.  

 

Not at all-no offense taken. It was my thought that this conversation was going very well and politely, though perhaps I have seemed flippant in some of my answers, and for that, I apologize. I enjoy these types of discussions because they challenge me to always stay up on WHY I believe as I do, not just that I follow something I can't back up.

The problem with the history of Christmas is that it is very convoluted. Santa Claus, for instance, is built up from many different origins, all the way from Woden/Odin and Thor, of Nordic mythology, to Saint Nikolas, and Svarte Piet (Black Peter). Throw in Yule traditions, Pre-Catholic Roman Saturnalia even the tradition from ancient Egypt of bringing palms from the trees into the house to decorate during the dark winter months, and you get a real mish-mash. Then of course, on top of it all, the Catholics included Jesus in the mix and really made a mess of it. 

If you have some time, look at this: http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html   I don't want to put in the article, because it is very long, but here you can see the convoluted mess that has become Christmas.

One thing to note that I have always found interesting, concerning Santa Claus, (I am sure you don't do the Santa thing, but just an interesting side); Originally, Santa Claus' name was a slight changing from Saint Nikolas, SANt' NIklas-Santa Klaus. Now, Nikolas was always pictured as a tall thin man with a white beard and a bishop's robe and hat. Nikolas rode a white horse, (See the Jesus imagery?) and he had a companion, named Black Peter, or Svarte Piet-this is the Dutch tradition. Today, Black peter is pictured as a black servant in festive clothes, but back in the 1800's, he was a short, gnomish man with black furs and a black beard-and it was Black Peter that delivered the presents. He was black because he was covered in soot from the chimneys. However, he didn't just deliver presents, but he delivered punishments to the bad children, such as whippings or, if really bad, he would drag them to hell. If you are familiar with the Krampus, same sort of thing. The thing with Peter, is that he was the devil, Satan, who was somehow bound one day each year to serve Saint Nikolas in this manner. So, it was Satan that delivered the presents, not Nikolas. 

Because of this, most children kind of ignored Nikolas and had Black Peter in their minds connected to Christmas.  So, in the 1800's, when Thomas Nast, who was Dutch, was commissioned to produce some pictures of this Santa Claus for advertising, he didn't draw Saint Nicolas, he drew what was associated with Christmas in his mind: Black Peter. He was drawn as a short hairy man in dark furs. Later they made the furs red and white, changed the beard to white, and boom, Santa Claus as we know him today. But he is designed from Satan. nast.jpg

So, all things considered, a pretty creepy origin story.  

13276.jpgAnother early Nast picture of Claus/Black Peter.

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There is also the idea that December 25th was specifically chosen in order to confront paganism, eliminate the false worship and turn that day from one of paganism to one of Christ worship. Naturally the RCC's hand in this over the years made things far from perfect. Even so, any day of the year can be redeemed for the Lord and Christ should be worshiped each day.

Christmas presents a unique opportunity to share Christ as many people who otherwise might be closed to such are more open during the "Christmas season".

Those who twist and turn to try and prove Christ was actually born on December 25th and those who proclaim such as fact are not doing well in this. We can worship Christ, even celebrate His birth, while acknowledging we don't know the date of His actual birth.

Like all celebrations/holidays which spread forth into a broad appeal the event changes much over time and from one culture to the next. It's common for many different aspects to be mixed and mingled and for some to hold to one aspect more than others. An obscure example would be the American preference for red being a main Christmas color while in South Korea blue is the preferred color.

For most Americans "santa" is the Coca-cola ad inspired version which they see depicted most while in other parts of the world "santa" is often viewed much differently.

Our church "celebrates" Christmas, not with "santa" and such, but as an opportunity to focus upon the reality of Christ, what His coming means, and as an opportunity to get the Gospel to those who may only enter church during the "Christmas season".

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6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Not at all-no offense taken. It was my thought that this conversation was going very well and politely, though perhaps I have seemed flippant in some of my answers, and for that, I apologize. I enjoy these types of discussions because they challenge me to always stay up on WHY I believe as I do, not just that I follow something I can't back up.

Neither is any apology necessary on your, I haven't taken any offence, I also find these discussions helpful and informative. Also I find your giving of the history of Santa Clause very interesting, it reminds of my first visit to Santa Clause when I was five. My conclusion of the whole experience was that he was just a man dress in a costume and playing a part like in a play or a story book. I understood at that age that the whole thing was only make-believe and not real. So to me it was just for fun and entertainment.

I would like to continue in these discussions and perhaps learn something. I am sure although that I will continue my enjoyment in celebration of Christmas as I have since I was a child, not that I am stubborn but not  easily convinced. 

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3 hours ago, Doc Flay said:

Neither is any apology necessary on your, I haven't taken any offence, I also find these discussions helpful and informative. Also I find your giving of the history of Santa Clause very interesting, it reminds of my first visit to Santa Clause when I was five. My conclusion of the whole experience was that he was just a man dress in a costume and playing a part like in a play or a story book. I understood at that age that the whole thing was only make-believe and not real. So to me it was just for fun and entertainment.

I would like to continue in these discussions and perhaps learn something. I am sure although that I will continue my enjoyment in celebration of Christmas as I have since I was a child, not that I am stubborn but not  easily convinced. 

Slightly off topic but this reminded me of when our youngest son was still very young and he saw the "Easter Bunny" walking through Wal-Mart. Our son hugged "E.B." as the "E.B." was hugging and shaking kids hands as he walked through the store. We walked a few steps after than and our son looked up and asked me why the "Easter Bunny" was someone wearing a suit!

Most children (unless the parents go to great effort to prevent it) are pretty quick to figure out things like "Santa", "Easter Bunny", "Tooth Fairy" and such are just stories like those they read in books, pretend play and TV characters. These things open doors to help our children understand the difference between real and pretend, fiction and non-fiction, what's really important and what isn't.

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19 hours ago, John81 said:

Slightly off topic but this reminded me of when our youngest son was still very young and he saw the "Easter Bunny" walking through Wal-Mart. Our son hugged "E.B." as the "E.B." was hugging and shaking kids hands as he walked through the store. We walked a few steps after than and our son looked up and asked me why the "Easter Bunny" was someone wearing a suit!

Most children (unless the parents go to great effort to prevent it) are pretty quick to figure out things like "Santa", "Easter Bunny", "Tooth Fairy" and such are just stories like those they read in books, pretend play and TV characters. These things open doors to help our children understand the difference between real and pretend, fiction and non-fiction, what's really important and what isn't.

Quite the contrary John, I think it's right on topic and may even prove somewhat of my argument for celebrating Christmas. I have been a fundamentalist ever since may of 1976; and I have never come across this controversy before. In the seventies at Christmas time all anyone was worried about was to much of the world in Christmas and not enough Christ, or being to much about the getting rather than the giving. When I first became a Christian there was no talk about a deception in Christmas or any connection with Baal. This is all relatively new to me even though I have heard it before it seams as though it is getting more and more popular here of late.   

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4 hours ago, Doc Flay said:

Quite the contrary John, I think it's right on topic and may even prove somewhat of my argument for celebrating Christmas. I have been a fundamentalist ever since may of 1976; and I have never come across this controversy before. In the seventies at Christmas time all anyone was worried about was to much of the world in Christmas and not enough Christ, or being to much about the getting rather than the giving. When I first became a Christian there was no talk about a deception in Christmas or any connection with Baal. This is all relatively new to me even though I have heard it before it seams as though it is getting more and more popular here of late.   

Until about the last 10 years or so online I'd not heard any fundamentalists (or others) bringing up the things which seem to be the pet peeves now regarding the origins and roots of Christmas and things associated with Christmas.

While most Christians seem to realize they aren't worshiping a false god by having a Christmas tree or kissing their wife under a mistletoe, many modern-day pagans have jumped on the information provided by Christians attacking Christmas. How ironic that in attempting to tell Christians they are involving themselves in pagan worship they instead have helped in the revitalization of paganism and the outright paganistic worship practices of modern-day pagans.

Virtually all our holidays today have pagan and/or secular roots. I worship the God of Scripture each day so there are no pagan celebrations here regardless of what holiday we are or are not taking note of.

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Thank you John, that is a perfect balance to the controversy. I believe a lot of good can come out of Christmas' traditional activities. All the charities benefit at this time and I am not too sure but I think even our economy is valuated somewhat through the spending for Christmas gifts.   

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