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The 144,000 Jewish Evangelists And The Great Harvest Of Souls In The Tribulation

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Boy...I'm really slow! I just read your "Signature Line" for the first time...now I know why you go by "candlelight"!

Hehe:)  That's alright, brother.  ;)  I don't seek recognition when I post on OB.  The only thing I want to do is please my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

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Petra is said to be the place to which the Jerusalem Christians fled when the saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies during the Roman war. AD 66-70, in obedience to Christ's command.  Matt.14:15, Mark 13:15, Luke 21:20.

Edited by Invicta

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Thanks for clarification, John.  "Petra" is just a name used for Jordon. 

From my understanding only 1/3 of the Jews will be saved in the Great Tribulation.  2/3 of Israel is destroyed.  This is what it says in the Book of Daniel.

 

Zechariah 13:7-9

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

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Zechariah 13:7-9

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Thanks, Eric.  It is in Zechariah, as you pointed out, not Daniel.

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Thank you Jerry, for agreeing with me that those teachings are not found in the Bible. Why then do you list a mix of Biblical teachings & non-Biblical teachings?

 

Thanks for misrepresenting what I stated, those who bring up teachings not found in the Bible just loves to do that.

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Candle light:

From my understanding only 1/3 of the Jews will be saved in the Great Tribulation.  2/3 of Israel is destroyed. 

 

Zechariah 13:7-9

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

What is the context of Zech. 13? How did Jesus reference it?

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. ....... Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Mat. 26:31-2, 53-4

 

The context is the cross, the rejection of the Messiah, the salvation of the 1/3 remnant of those who repented at the preaching of the Apostles, and the judgment of the 2/3 persisted in unbelief who suffered in the days of vengeance (Luke 21.)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Why should these verses be given an "end times tribulation after the supposed rapture" when the plain literal context is the judgment of the generation that rejected its Messiah?

 

And who are the 144,000 faithful Jews who are protected from the tribulation? Surely those who believed Jesus as Messiah & fled Jerusalem when they saw the warning signs of Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21?

 

 

 

 

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Good morning, Covenater.  Why did you quote what I posted?

You referred to the deliverance of 1/3 Jews during/from the tribulation; Eric quoted the reference in Zechariah; & I commented on the way Jesus referred to Zec. 13. Yet future end times tribulation, or AD 70 tribulation?

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You referred to the deliverance of 1/3 Jews during/from the tribulation; Eric quoted the reference in Zechariah; & I commented on the way Jesus referred to Zec. 13. Yet future end times tribulation, or AD 70 tribulation?

I have no idea what you are getting at, Covenanter.  Although, if you are "trying" to get into a disagreement about the "Rapture of the saints"... I am not going there.  You believe what you want to believe.

If you persist, I will have to block you and also unfriend you on my Facebook account.  My days of talking about the "Rapture" are over.  Thank you in advance:) 

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I have no idea what you are getting at, Covenanter.  Although, if you are "trying" to get into a disagreement about the "Rapture of the saints"... I am not going there.  You believe what you want to believe.

If you persist, I will have to block you and also unfriend you on my Facebook account.  My days of talking about the "Rapture" are over.  Thank you in advance:) 

I apologize for being so blunt, Covenanter.  After the past few days, with SFIC's bloodbath, I won't engage in any further disagreements with any saints on OB.  I won't let the Devil have any victory.  Hope you understand.

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I think everyone here is in agreement that Jesus will return and call us to Him. The differences seem to be in the details; such as timing.

 

Beyond that, there is disagreement over just what will occur just prior to, during and after the End. Even among those who hold to very similar views there are some differences.

 

Discussions of these matters can be helpful, but arguments are not.

 

It is rather interesting to see how various views have been the dominate views at different times and how different views have changed over the centuries.

 

The main thing to remember is that after we consider these views, we have to take it all back to Scripture and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

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You referred to the deliverance of 1/3 Jews during/from the tribulation; Eric quoted the reference in Zechariah; & I commented on the way Jesus referred to Zec. 13. Yet future end times tribulation, or AD 70 tribulation?

 

Covenanter,

 

Do you believe 1/3 of the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 AD accepted Jesus as Lord before they where killed or sold into slavery?

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If your "starting position" is that ALL prophecies were fulfilled by 70 A.D., then there is no point in debate.

It's called "preterism" and was a Catholic Doctrine from the 4th Century with St. Augustine as its main proponent.

Catholics and most Protestants have "embraced" this doctrine.

 

Does it really matter if most Christians are unaware of the things coming shortly to planet earth??

Edited by beameup

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If your "starting position" is that ALL prophecies were fulfilled by 70 A.D., then there is no point in debate.

It's called "preterism" and was a Catholic Doctrine from the 4th Century with St. Augustine as its main proponent.

Catholics and most Protestants have "embraced" this doctrine.

 

Does it really matter if most Christians are unaware of the things coming shortly to planet earth??

 

 

I don't thin the teaching went back to Augustine.  While I believe it was a RCC doctrine invented after the reformation to deflect the reformed teaching that the pope was Antichrist.  When that failed due to the obvious shortcomings in the theory, they invented futurism for the same reason.  About 200 years after that it began to spread to protestants and shortly after that dispensationalism came about.

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I don't thin the teaching went back to Augustine.  While I believe it was a RCC doctrine invented after the reformation to deflect the reformed teaching that the pope was Antichrist.  When that failed due to the obvious shortcomings in the theory, they invented futurism for the same reason.  About 200 years after that it began to spread to protestants and shortly after that dispensationalism came about.

No, it was invented for the purpose of deflecting any thought that the Emperor of the Roman Empire was "the antichrist".

When the church merged with the state, all opposition had to be silenced.  Clearly Augustine was the architect of

"replacement theology" and "preterism" and other false doctrines that have been promulgated for almost 2,000 years.

It has only been in recent times that the "forgotten truths" have been revived.

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No, it was invented for the purpose of deflecting any thought that the Emperor of the Roman Empire was "the antichrist".

When the church merged with the state, all opposition had to be silenced.  Clearly Augustine was the architect of

"replacement theology" and "preterism" and other false doctrines that have been promulgated for almost 2,000 years.

It has only been in recent times that the "forgotten truths" have been revived.

You mean  invented recently.

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Covenanter,

 

Do you believe 1/3 of the Jews in Jerusalem in 70 AD accepted Jesus as Lord before they where killed or sold into slavery?

The 1/3 represents those who fled the city BEFORE the final siege, & possible the "many thousands" reported to believe when Paul returned to Jerusalem. I can't give details apart from the information revealed in Scripture.

 

The 144,000 is a "perfect" symbolic number of faithful Jews protected from the 4 winds of tribulation. These saw the warning signs & escaped from the city. (virgins with regard to religious purity, not necessarily celibate.)

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Could you give precedent for understanding virgin as religious purity rather than sexual purity please?
Why should we not understand the word in its normal useage?

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If your "starting position" is that ALL prophecies were fulfilled by 70 A.D., then there is no point in debate.

It's called "preterism" and was a Catholic Doctrine from the 4th Century with St. Augustine as its main proponent.

Catholics and most Protestants have "embraced" this doctrine.

 

Does it really matter if most Christians are unaware of the things coming shortly to planet earth??

My "starting position" is Scripture - context & cross references, with Jesus & the Apostles given prominence in understanding the OT. From where I stand - & read - many (most) prophecies have a direct fulfilment in the life, ministry, death & resurrection of the LORD Jesus, the Apostolic era, which ended with the death of the Apostles & the fall of Jerusalem.

 

There is a great final prophecy to be fulfilled - the return of the LORD Jesus in person, in glory, for resurrection & judgement.

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Could you give precedent for understanding virgin as religious purity rather than sexual purity please?
Why should we not understand the word in its normal useage?

There are references in prophecy to Israel as the virgin, corrupting herself by idolatory.

 

In normal usage, "virgin" refers to girls, not young men. And of course marriage does not defile.

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There are references in prophecy to Israel as the virgin, corrupting herself by idolatory.

In normal usage, "virgin" refers to girls, not young men. And of course marriage does not defile.


Well the overwhelming useage is personal sexual purity; those which speak of the nation clearly do so.
And then there is this:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If we allow the passage to define the meaning we find the clear indication is sexual purity.
"....not defiled with women; for they are virgins...".

How can you possibly force this to mean religious purity when it so clearly places the context otherwise?

Furthermore, "....these are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth."
Not "which fled from an enemy" - they followed, not fled.

By the way, I am not placing this event into any understanding or position - simply pointing out that your interpretation does not fit easily with what the Bible plainly says.

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Well the overwhelming useage is personal sexual purity; those which speak of the nation clearly do so.
And then there is this:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If we allow the passage to define the meaning we find the clear indication is sexual purity.
"....not defiled with women; for they are virgins...".

How can you possibly force this to mean religious purity when it so clearly places the context otherwise?

Furthermore, "....these are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth."
Not "which fled from an enemy" - they followed, not fled.

By the way, I am not placing this event into any understanding or position - simply pointing out that your interpretation does not fit easily with what the Bible plainly says.

Hi Dave,

 

I think these virgin men were not defiled Spiritually by Harlot Babylon but were true to God.

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Hi Dave,

I think these virgin men were not defiled Spiritually by Harlot Babylon but were true to God.


You can think that, but the primary meaning of the word virgin in this verse is defined in the verse as not defiled by women.
The fact they follow the Lamb is an additional thought, not a further definition. THAT thought indeed indicates that, but it does not supplant the sexual purity indicated by the first clause.

In other words, both are true, not the second defining the first.

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Rev 14:4b These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Placing this verse IN the Tribulation indicates that they are the "firstfruits"
saved by faith at the beginning of the Tribulation. Many feel that these Jews
will be saved in the manner of Saul/Paul and will go out to fulfill The Great Commission.
Given the examples of Philip's supernatural transportation and the gifts of supernatural linguistics,
it is easy to see how 144,000 could "follow the Lamb" and evangelized every corner of the globe.

Edited by beameup

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