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In AA and all other 12-Step "Recovery" programs, Jesus is only another "higher power".  I was in Al-Anon for 5 years (1981-1986) and the group frowned on the usage of naming Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord.

That can be the downfall of a 12 Step Program, Linda.  I explained above, why "Higher Power" is used.  In my area, b/c AA was started here, many meetings are "believer's meetings."  I have never been told not to use the name of the only "Higher Power" that matters, my Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind.  If someone did that? I would gently tell them, what I know and get the chance to witness to them.  In fact, my friend Eddy, is a born again believer.  He was saved in the rooms of AA after another born again believer led him to Christ, in those same rooms.  Eddy is also a Baptist with Roman Catholic beginnings.   He and many other AA's use their time, when they give their "Lead" - testimony, in a sense, to point to the cross, in the church, and talk about the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are smattering of believers in 12 Step Programs.  The Lord has used me greatly to share the gospel with the unsaved, as well.  It is also nice to know that there are backup believers to help.  "Stength in Numbers."  Many Roman Catholics sit in the rooms of AA.  I joke about it being the "communion wine" in the RCC.  Giving a 7 year old child alcohol at such a young age... on the 1st  day of the week, at Mass?  Even if it is only a sip of wine?  Not good.  Anyway, the religion of my childhood is my buggest burden.  Al-Anon gives me a great opportunity to give them the gospel.  If I am ever told that I can't do this, I will ask them who says so?  I answer to the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone.  It will only challenge me to work harder to get the word of God in their hearts and minds.  God's glory shines through in those rooms.  I have seen many people trust Jesus Christ as Personal Saviour in 12 Step Meetings.  It was my launching pad, and I plan on continuing to plant seeds to those who don't get the gospel any other way.  My :twocents: .   

Edited by candlelight

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All the more reason to battle the old devil and show him that Jesus Christ is in charge, will always be in charge, and has won the battle... set out years ago with Satan's rebellion to God in heaven.  I love a challenge, SFIC.  I didn't teach grade school for 18 years, in the inner city, to quit fighting now.  :sSig_praiseGod:

Edited by candlelight

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I'll stick with the facts. AA's "Higher Power" is not Jesus Christ. It is whatever object or idol a drunkard wants to place his or her faith in.

I don't disagree with you, brother.  The 12 Step Program is merely a seed planting ministry for me.  I have been retired for years.  All women in my church, work outside the home, except for one.  We get together occassionally.  Al-Anon is a good place to socialize  while spreading the gospel.  My husband won't allow me to go into female prisons, nor stand on the street and preach.  My choice is to go into the rooms, socialize, plant seeds and hopefully lead souls to the lost.  It is a good ministry for me.  It doesn't replace my church attendance or ministry in my church, it merely enhances it.  I led two women from Al-Anon to my former IFB church.  It works.  If something works, then I will stick with it.  I have seen Jews and Muslims along with numerous Roman Catholics come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in these 12 Step rooms.  I don't force the Spirit, God does the work and gets the glory, not me.  I am just an instrument in their lives to share my testimony with them.

I believe you and Linda live in TX, brother?  The 12 Step Program is very different in the State of TX.  In OH, we have several different types of meetings.  The ones I like the most are the small group meetings, with just a few women, talking over life's burdens while sharing our love for oneanother.  For me, it is the perfect opportunity to share the Love of Christ that people so desperately need.  The "harvest is plentiful."  Souls are coming to the Lord Jesus Christ and are hungry for the word of God.  I will share my testimony and scritptures with the lost any chance I get.  I also live with an oldest brother, who is an active drunk.  It is refreshing to meet with people who have the same thing in common.  Al-Anon and AA are like a life jacket.  I can't talk with church folk about these things.  They don't share the burden I have for these people.  Al-Anon was where my life began to change, spirtually.  Am I supposed to forsake something that helped me grow close to the Lord?  I don't think so...   

Edited by candlelight

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Oh, Linda.  I am sorry, I missed over this part of your post.

Linda said:

The extreme naivete of Christians comes through when they confidently assert that their higher Power is Jesus Christ. Since when did Jesus align Himself with false gods? Since when has He been willing to join the Pantheon or the array of Hindu deities? Jesus is not an option of one among many. He is the Only Son, the Only Savior, and the Only Way. All Twelve Step programs violate the declarations of the Reformation: Only Scripture; Only Christ; Only Grace; Only Faith; and Glory to God Only. Instead they offer another power, another gospel, another savior, another source, another fellowship, another tradition, another evangelism, and another god. Jesus’ majesty and His very person are violated by joining Him with the gods of the wide gate and the broad way. Jesus emphatically stated that His gate is strait and His way is narrow. His is the only way to life, while all other ways lead to destruction (Matthew 7:13-14).

 

Myself, along with other born again believers, make it perfectly clear that Jesus Christ is the only "Higher Power" there is.  He is the only one that matters.  I talk about salvation through His shed blood, on the cross of Calvary, and w/o the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.  Members are fully aware of where I stand on the whole "Higher Power" thing.  This has never been a problem for me, but I am pretty bold when I witness to the lost.  God made it a commandment for me to go and preach the gospel to others.  So far, so good.  If it does become unsuccesful, I won't continue.  As of yet, it has been very productive.  The 12 Step Program is the strongest, in the world, in Cleveland, OH.  Over 900 meetings, most all of them in churches?  I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't believe it worked.  Don't be surprised when you get to heaven, one day, and see these precious former drunks and people who suffer at the hands of drunks, in heaven.  Christ died for all of us, as you know.  BTW, I also have some wonderful Christian material from the 12 Step Program. 

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In AA and all other 12-Step "Recovery" programs, Jesus is only another "higher power".  I was in Al-Anon for 5 years (1981-1986) and the group frowned on the usage of naming Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord.

 

Right, when many use the word higher power, they are not referring to God.

 

I believe once that Oprah said the higher power was this earth, nature, not God & Jesus. Yet many there be that still falls for it.

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Let's put it in perspective for a moment shall we?
It is not a Christian program.It does not claim to be a Christian program.
It is a worldly program that uses some Biblical principles, and is used by some Christians as a witnessing tool.

It is effective FOR SOME people to control their addiction.

It is not something that I personally would involve myself in - I think there are more biblically sound ways.

But no one is saying it is Christian, nor that it is perfect.

Some use it as a tool to reach the lost - not unlike we use our children's sporting club to be a testimony to those there.

I also don't like the way they present a "higher power" but it can be used.
Paul did - this unknown god whom ye worship......

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Let's put it in perspective for a moment shall we?
It is not a Christian program.It does not claim to be a Christian program.
It is a worldly program that uses some Biblical principles, and is used by some Christians as a witnessing tool.

It is effective FOR SOME people to control their addiction.

It is not something that I personally would involve myself in - I think there are more biblically sound ways.

But no one is saying it is Christian, nor that it is perfect.

Some use it as a tool to reach the lost - not unlike we use our children's sporting club to be a testimony to those there.

I also don't like the way they present a "higher power" but it can be used.
Paul did - this unknown god whom ye worship......

Good points.

 

These groups were designed to be beneficial to anyone. Some groups are more secular, some are more Christian, it just depends upon what group one is in. I know of some who have been through these in this area and the groups were overtly and openly Christian. At the same time, some other groups in the area leaned secular.

 

These groups can be a blessing to some, but they aren't for everyone.

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2 Corinthians 6:11-18 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Those Corinthians Paul was addressing in the above passage were walking amongst the idolaters.  They obviously were identified with them because they were amongst them. 

What did God say to them?  Come out from amongst them and be ye separate.  If they failed to do that, God would not receive them.  God does not want us in the enemies camp.  He did not say identify yourself with them and I will receive you.  No, He said Come out.

One who wants to be received of God should not be defending Alcoholics Anonymous or Al-Anon.  Those groups are rife with idols and idolaters.  And God says: "Come out from amongst them and I will receive you."

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

How is one abstaining from "appearance of evil" when one is seen walking in and out of that den of idolaters?

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2 Corinthians 6:11-18 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Those Corinthians Paul was addressing in the above passage were walking amongst the idolaters.  They obviously were identified with them because they were amongst them. 

What did God say to them?  Come out from amongst them and be ye separate.  If they failed to do that, God would not receive them.  God does not want us in the enemies camp.  He did not say identify yourself with them and I will receive you.  No, He said Come out.

One who wants to be received of God should not be defending Alcoholics Anonymous or Al-Anon.  Those groups are rife with idols and idolaters.  And God says: "Come out from amongst them and I will receive you."

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

How is one abstaining from "appearance of evil" when one is seen walking in and out of that den of idolaters?

An AA meeting isn't a worship service. When people see folks walking out of one they are thinking "there are some folks trying to overcome being an alcoholic".

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Well, tomorrow I am converting to being Amish.  I can't live with the English anymore.  The unsaved aren't important to me now, b/c Christ only died for me.  I see.  :umno:   Have a blessed night SFIC.

Edited by candlelight

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Candlelight,

 

SFIC and I are not living in TX.  We live in Northwest Mississippi (in the delta), just south of Memphis, TN.  He was born in Tripoli, Libya (North Africa....his father was in the military there).  After his father died (he drowned in a diving accident in the Mediterranean Sea on Christmas Day, 1960), his mother packed up the family and moved back to the states and they lived in Manassas Park, VA...that's where he was raised.

 

I was born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio (I see that is where you are from).  I lived in Colorado for almost 30 years.  Moved to Mississippi in June of 2000.  The rest of the sordid details of my life I will reserve for another post.

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As Christians, there is a defining line that we must walk in our witnessing to the unsaved. 

If we are seen going in and coming out of, and spending any amount of time in a bar week after week, those who see us leaving don't see a Christian who is attempting to be a soul-winner.  They see a drunkard, a person who has to hit the bottle week after week.

If we are seen going in and out of, and spending any amount of time in a crack house, we give the appearance of being a person who has to have his crack "fix."

The defining line?  Abstain from all appearance of evil. 

In other words, don't be seen doing those things week after week.  Though you may think you are being a good Christian witness, in reality... you are not.

I am not saying "don't witness to the drunks."  What I am saying is repitition breeds familiarity.  

A Christian should not even be associated with such groups as AA and Al-Anon.  If they truly are Christians, they cannot be drunkards.  And yet, that is the very thing they are identifying themselves as... drunkards.  

"Hi, my name is _______, and I am an alcoholic."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How can one be a Christian and a drunkard at the same time?  The two are diametrically opposed to one another.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And yet, so many who name the name of Christ want to identify themselves to the world as being drunkards.

Truly sad.

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As Christians, there is a defining line that we must walk in our witnessing to the unsaved. 

If we are seen going in and coming out of, and spending any amount of time in a bar week after week, those who see us leaving don't see a Christian who is attempting to be a soul-winner.  They see a drunkard, a person who has to hit the bottle week after week.

If we are seen going in and out of, and spending any amount of time in a crack house, we give the appearance of being a person who has to have his crack "fix."

The defining line?  Abstain from all appearance of evil. 

In other words, don't be seen doing those things week after week.  Though you may think you are being a good Christian witness, in reality... you are not.

I am not saying "don't witness to the drunks."  What I am saying is repitition breeds familiarity.  

A Christian should not even be associated with such groups as AA and Al-Anon.  If they truly are Christians, they cannot be drunkards.  And yet, that is the very thing they are identifying themselves as... drunkards.  

"Hi, my name is _______, and I am an alcoholic."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How can one be a Christian and a drunkard at the same time?  The two are diametrically opposed to one another.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And yet, so many who name the name of Christ want to identify themselves to the world as being drunkards.

Truly sad.

Did every sin in your life end when you were saved?

 

Is it your belief that when one is saved they are also delivered from alcoholism?

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If you mean, did I cease to identify myself with the same sin week after week upon trusting Christ? Then the answer is Yes. I no longer wanted to do things that would cause others to think there had been no change in my life. I no longer wanted to murder the one that did the crime that I was accused of. I no longer wanted to seek revenge for being sent to prison even though innocent.

Yes, John. I do believe the drunkard is delivered from alcoholism.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Yes, John. I do believe the drunkard is delivered from alcoholism.

So when we are saved we are delivered from our sins. What's the point of 1 John 1:9 then? Why have I never known a Christian who doesn't still sin?

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John, I did not say we never sin. We do sin from time to time. But, the difference is, the saved are chastened by the Lord when they sin. The saved do not defend their sin.

How is someone struggling with the sin of drunkenness defending their sin by seeking help?

 

Yes, the saved are chastened by the Lord when they sin, but we have seen even here on this board over the years that saved folks do indeed sometimes defend their sin. We don't all mature at the same rate. The Lord doesn't deal with each of us about the same sin at the same time.

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AA: Christian or Occult Roots?

 

Christians continue to insist that Alcoholics Anonymous is compatible with Christianity because of its so-called Christian roots. That is because of its early connection with the Oxford Group, which is now called Moral Re-Armament (MRA). The founders of AA were involved in the Oxford Group movement during the early days, but there is no record of either Bill Wilson or Bob Smith professing Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord or as the only way to the Father. Neither is there a record of them believing or teaching that the only way of salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

 

Frank Buchman, a Lutheran minister, began a movement which he originally called "A First Century Christian Fellowship." In 1928 the name of the movement changed to the "Oxford Group." The other leader of the movement, who was influential in the development of AA, was Samuel Shoemaker, rector of an Episcopal church. The thrust of the movement was experience rather than clear biblical doctrine.

 

Buchman explained that, as he did "he never touched any doctrine in any of his meetings not want to upset or offend anyone."1 (Emphasis in original.) By keeping his doctrinal beliefs to himself, Buchman was able to appeal to people of all religious persuasions.

 

The following is Wilson’s description of the Oxford Group:

   

     The Oxford Group was a nondenominational evangelical movement, streamlined for the modern world and then at the height of its very considerable success. . . . They would deal in simple common denominators of all religions which would be potent enough to change the lives of men and women.2 (Emphasis added.)

 

However, there is some evidence that the founders of AA did have opportunity to hear the Gospel,3 but instead of receiving Christ as Lord and Savior and experiencing freedom in Christ and victory over sin through faith in Christ alone, Wilson and Smith took only what they wanted from the Oxford Group. Here we will examine three aspects of what AA borrowed: guidance, surrender, and moral principles.

 

1. William C. Irvine. Heresies Exposed. New York: Loizeaux Brothers, Inc., 1921, p. 54.

 

2. Wilson quoted in Pass It On: The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., 1984, pp. 127,128.

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Let's put it in perspective for a moment shall we?
It is not a Christian program.It does not claim to be a Christian program.
It is a worldly program that uses some Biblical principles, and is used by some Christians as a witnessing tool.

It is effective FOR SOME people to control their addiction.

It is not something that I personally would involve myself in - I think there are more biblically sound ways.

But no one is saying it is Christian, nor that it is perfect.

Some use it as a tool to reach the lost - not unlike we use our children's sporting club to be a testimony to those there.

I also don't like the way they present a "higher power" but it can be used.
Paul did - this unknown god whom ye worship......

 

But look what he said to them.

 

Ac 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you

 

He rebuked them, he did not encourage them to keep on keeping on worshiping the unknown God, he pointed, or tried to point them in the right direction as seen in the Holy Scriptures below.

 

Ac 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Ac 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Ac 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

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None can be delivered from the sin of being a drunkard by attending AA meetings. They remain drunkards as long as they are in that cultic organization because they always identify themselves as drunkard.

I have never heard of an AA member standing up in one of those group meetings and saying, "Hi, my name is_______, and I used to be an alcoholic." No, they always identify themselves as drunkards.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

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Candlelight,

 

SFIC and I are not living in TX.  We live in Northwest Mississippi (in the delta), just south of Memphis, TN.  He was born in Tripoli, Libya (North Africa....his father was in the military there).  After his father died (he drowned in a diving accident in the Mediterranean Sea on Christmas Day, 1960), his mother packed up the family and moved back to the states and they lived in Manassas Park, VA...that's where he was raised.

 

I was born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio (I see that is where you are from).  I lived in Colorado for almost 30 years.  Moved to Mississippi in June of 2000.  The rest of the sordid details of my life I will reserve for another post.

 

At one time I had a half-brother that lived at Southhaven, just south of Memphis. I visited him one time after finding him in about 1993 or so. He was a drunk, he did not care for me because I would not drink with him.

 

That evening a half-sister I had found at the same time along with her husband & my wife went to his house. Present was also a sister of my birth father & 2 cousins.

 

We had a wonderful meal, & after it my bother would get up walking out of the house once in a while, them each time coming back in he would have changed some what from his drinking.

 

During the time he was out I would visit with my aunt & two cousins, after he would come back in he was all mouth, waning to talk about drinking, bar hopping, bar fights, & could not understand my lack of interest. And as the night got older it just got worse. And the only nice time was while he was out taking a drink.

 

The next night my aunt & two cousins came over to my half-sisters house & we had a joyful time with great conversations. And since that time I've met them once more having more enjoyable time finding things about my family I never knew.

 

I believe it was the next day just before we were leaving my half-brother called, I talked to him for a while on the phone & he called me a do-gooder because I still did not care for drinking & bar hopping.

 

Later on I went though Memphis & Mississippi to Alabama to visit another half sister.

 

Back in my trucking days in the 70's I came south out of Memphis a few times to miss the scales, them cross the river at Helena on down though Pine Bluff & on towards Southwest Arkansas.

 

So I've been though your neck of the woods. Its always neat to me when I come across someone & I have been though their part of the country.

 

Happy Thanksgiving,

Jerry

 

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None can be delivered from the sin of being a drunkard by attending AA meetings. They remain drunkards as long as they are in that cultic organization because they always identify themselves as drunkard.

I have never heard of an AA member standing up in one of those group meetings and saying, "Hi, my name is_______, and I used to be an alcoholic." No, they always identify themselves as drunkards.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners years after he was saved. That didn't bind him to sin because he admitted that.

 

I don't know of any Christians who have confused the difference between spiritual deliverance from alcohol through Christ, and help in dealing with other aspects staying sober.

 

The sad fact is, we (IFBs and Christians in general) don't offer much help in this area. Some IFB and other churches now offer help through RU, but I've even heard some denounce this form of help.

 

I'm certainly not saying AA is a Christian organization, nor that every AA group is helpful for a Christian, but some are, and for some Christians, this is the only place they are able to get some of the help they need.

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