Another Giving/stewardship Post With A Twist

[Calvary]

1 Corinthians 9 is not about salaried pastors.  It is about missionaries and evangelists having a right to receive compensation for their service. 

1 Corinthians 16 was concerning a collection for a different congregation other than the one the collections was being gathered at.

Paul instructed the early Church that Elders were to work with their hands so that they would have to provide for the weak.  Nowadays, so many pastors want it the other way around.  They expect the weak to provide for them while they neglect the work that the Bible tells them to do

Again dead wrong. As usual you put your own twisted viewpoint on a passage. 1 Corinthians 9 simply says those that MINISTER in the temple have a right to PARTAKE of the altar having just said HE SPEAKS AS A MAN, in other words, COMMON SENSE tells you that the minister should be compensated. PERIOD. Not some class of minister. Your anger at a man of God receiving his due is always present, always evident and always nauseating.

 

If 1 Corinthians 16 was a special one time event as many of the anti pay a pastor crowd advocate, why did Paul ordain it is other churches? It was a principle that he taught in other congregations, regardless of what the offering in Corinth was destined for, the principle was taught is several places. Principles are always lost of you tight fisted, stingy grumblers like yourself who only can see the letter and never the spirit.

 

Working with your hands in 1 Thess 4 has no bearing on the subject., As usual, your caviling is out of context, twisted logic and lacking of any truth.

 

I only wonder when the rest of you that post regular on this board are going to rebuke this fool for his constant contentious spirit and just run him off. Why do you suffer fools? He certainly has a right to his opinion about giving and he certainly has a right to withhold his goods from the Lord´s servants, but why so many of you tolerate his prattling is beyond me. Or could it be that there is none of you wise? None of you able to discern?

 

He claims to be pushed out of a church for teaching against the tithe. I submit to you that he was pushed out for his contentious spirit that is evidenced here on a  regular basis.

 

To allow his false statement on the conclusion of 1 Cor. 9 to stand is tantamount to negligence on your part moderators. False teachers should not be suffered.

 

Good day sirs.

[ThePilgrim]

I only wonder when the rest of you that post regular on this board are going to rebuke this fool for his constant contentious spirit and just run him off. Why do you suffer fools? He certainly has a right to his opinion about giving and he certainly has a right to withhold his goods from the Lord´s servants, but why so many of you tolerate his prattling is beyond me. Or could it be that there is none of you wise? None of you able to discern?

 

He claims to be pushed out of a church for teaching against the tithe. I submit to you that he was pushed out for his contentious spirit that is evidenced here on a  regular basis.

 

To allow his false statement on the conclusion of 1 Cor. 9 to stand is tantamount to negligence on your part moderators. False teachers should not be suffered.

 

Good day sirs.

 

Are ad hominem attacks a part of good christian response?

 

God bless,

Larry

[John81]

Are ad hominem attacks a part of good christian response?

 

God bless,

Larry

I don't know that his response would rightly be called ad hominem.

[ThePilgrim]

Well I could be wrong about the term and probably am, not being a logician or a philosopher.

 

I found this at  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AdHominem

 

The ad hominem in rhetoric

"A word of warning to any would-be applied logicians out there: while the ad hominem leads to bad judgement and ruin, it has great persuasive power. (I refer here to genuine ad hominems, not insults.) If you're on the receiving end of the examples in the first section above, the other person has just spanked you publicly. The same applies to all the other fallacies named in classical and medieval times.

The way to counter a material fallacy, as illustrated above, is to expose the false connection implied in the fallacy--to distinguish what was confused. However, the ad hominem is particularly nasty because it taints anything that you say from then on. After the ''ad hominem,'' most people will hear anything you say as just a desperate rationalization, no matter how logically sound or factual. They won't hear you anymore. The fallacy, skillfully applied, is like cutting off your microphone.

The ad hominem exploits our meme-filtering cognitions: it moves such irrelevant considerations as one's position in the social hierarchy into place to block out genuinely relevant facts. It takes you down a notch in the social hierarchy so no one feels like they need to listen to you anymore. One of our own, intelligent, cherished Wikizens even started a page (ConsiderTheSource) in which the ad hominem is touted as a good reason to not take an idea or a person seriously--a very explicit (and favorable!) description of the ad hominem as a tool of disrespect.

Watch out for this thing. It's a powerful poison, no one is immune, and probably the majority of humanity will never understand what an ad hominem is or why it's bad. That includes people who use the term to criticize what other people say (usually just as a synonym for "insulting remark")."

 

God bless,

Larry

[Ukulelemike]

I have foreborne saying anything more to this point, as I was interested in what the various views were. My position, for what its worth:

 

    I am an unpaid pastor of a small church, and I DO believe in giving. When I began, I was given a smal stipend, $300 per month, but when I got an outside job, as I needed, I shortly thereafter ceased the stipend, but I did continue to give, and have., Often times, in fact, my wife and I have borne the cost of some of the bills, and as many know, with so little coming in overall, we have lost our building as of Dec 5 this year.

 

I agree with SFIC in this one place: I disagree with the idea of the NT tithe, but I DO absolutely believe in the NT principle of giving as one has received from the Lord. I was once asked why not teach the tithe, so the people would feel compelled to give more, but the Bible itself says that we should not give out of necessity-a tithe would be necessity, and so in all conscience before the Lord, I could not do that. I rarely speak on giving in any capacity, because honestly, when I have, the giveng has actually decreased. The issue of living in a depressed area, I suppose.

 

Where I got the idea for the post was, many years ago, I had a preacher come and speak at a special meeting, named Johnny "The Baptist" Campbell. He asked if the church paid me and I told him no, and why, and he said, "So basically you pay your church for the privilege to be their pastor." I never really agreed with that concept, and told him such, but that idea has played around in my mind ever since-my wife and I sometimes have joked about it. So I thought I would throw it out there, just to see where it went.

[JerryNumbers]

Lets see, isn't Jesus our example, & did not He set the example for every Christian including pastors, of being a servant.

 

So its true, there's going to be some pastors that are going to be paid little, some more, I'm one of them that gets paid little & I never complain about it, I'm thankful for the wonderful blessing God has given the wife & I although we have to spend very thrifty & cannot keep up with the world having as they have.

 

To many pastors in this modern world wants to keep up with world, & worldly people, having just as they have & feel there's no sacrifices they have to make & they should never be deprived of what others have.

 

And I would take a big guess that most have much more than Jesus did.

 

Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Lu 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

 

Yet many of us still complains.

 

Ukulelemike, You will be blessed for that.

 

 

 

And remember any investment, sacrifices, you make with or for our Lord will be perfectly safe & in that day you will get a very wonderful return if you've invested rightfully according to His Word.

[Ukulelemike]

 

Lets see, isn't Jesus our example, & did not He set the example for every Christian including pastors, of being a servant.

 

So its true, there's going to be some pastors that are going to be paid little, some more, I'm one of them that gets paid little & I never complain about it, I'm thankful for the wonderful blessing God has given the wife & I although we have to spend very thrifty & cannot keep up with the world having as they have.

 

To many pastors in this modern world wants to keep up with world, & worldly people, having just as they have & feel there's no sacrifices they have to make & they should never be deprived of what others have.

 

And I would take a big guess that most have much more than Jesus did.

 

Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Lu 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

 

Yet many of us still complains.

 

Ukulelemike, You will be blessed for that.

 

 

 

And remember any investment, sacrifices, you make with or for our Lord will be perfectly safe & in that day you will get a very wonderful return if you've invested rightfully according to His Word.

 

Thanks, Jerry-kind words. They help these days, too.

[JerryNumbers]

Thanks, Jerry-kind words. They help these days, too.

 

Your welcome, it makes me sick, some pastors spends much time talking about money, not having enough, while looking for ways to have more of it. I suppose many of them have a wife behind them that may keep complaining that they never have as much as others of their church & of the world & they may keep them talking about money more often than they mean to.

 

Now, I'm not against paying a pastor, yet there's always going to be some good pastors out there trying their best to pastor a small church that has little to no money to pay them. God will very much appreciate their sacrifice & bless them for their sacrifices made during this life.

 

Yet I think many are to greedy & go after the money more than they follow Jesus.

 

Such as this little story I've told before.

 

The pastor told his wife go start packing our bags, the larger Independent Baptist Church on the other end of town sent a deacon to tell me they've called me to be their pastor, I'll be down in the basement for just a very few minutes praying them I'll be right up & help you pack our bags.

 

Yes, it seems he made up his mind before consulting God about the matter.

 

I had a pastor a several years back, this was his 1st church & he had preached for several other churches, & right after we called him a larger church's pastor resigned them called him to come be their pastor. The more money, more members made his think about it seriously. Yet he prayed about it, meditated on it, them come to the conclusion that God directed him to this church giving him a job to take care of for Him, & a large church with a larger pay day should not blind him to God's will for him. To me it seems these type of pastors are few & far between.

 

And that is no put down to those who are at larger churches that pays more that's been guided their by God. They have to have pastors to. And God directs pastors by the Holy Ghost who will listen to Him to the church He wants them to be at.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

The many things the Holy Ghost will do for us & our churches & help us with if we will be sensitive to its leading.

[Ukulelemike]

I agree, Jerry-some get a bit too focused on money, but I am for paying a pastor-the workman is worthy of his hire, particularly those who labor in the gospel. The church I used to attend in San Diego is quite large and they pay their pastor quite well-but he became pastor when the previous pastor was arrested-I won't go into why, but it should have ended the church. But he believed it was God's church and He would end it or continue it as He chose-he was just called to be the pastor. So basically it started over with him and a music director he called in, and now they are in the thousands with a thriving Spanish ministry. So he deserves what he makes, I would say. As much as any of us deserve anything.

[John81]

I agree, Jerry-some get a bit too focused on money, but I am for paying a pastor-the workman is worthy of his hire, particularly those who labor in the gospel. The church I used to attend in San Diego is quite large and they pay their pastor quite well-but he became pastor when the previous pastor was arrested-I won't go into why, but it should have ended the church. But he believed it was God's church and He would end it or continue it as He chose-he was just called to be the pastor. So basically it started over with him and a music director he called in, and now they are in the thousands with a thriving Spanish ministry. So he deserves what he makes, I would say. As much as any of us deserve anything.

Folks in the congregation expect to get paid for the work they do, and they want to be paid well, and most have secular jobs, so it would seem if that work deserves good pay, the work a good pastor does should qualify for good pay as well.

 

When our pastor came to this church the attendance was between 30-40 each service. Last Sunday we had 235 in attendance. He put in a lot of hard work for years, carrying a great deal of the ministry himself. As the congregation grew, so did his salary. A man of God who is actually working hard at the Lord's business deserves good pay.

 

What a shame that in some decent size churches the lowliest factory worker in the congregation is paid better than the pastor.

[JerryNumbers]

If everyone will read my post I never said a pastors should not be paid, yet if a man is pastor, & in it for the money so that he can live a very worldly life having everything with no worries about providing for their family, he is in it for the very wrong reason.

 

If any Christian, whether it be a pastor, teacher, deacon, & or church member, never sacrifices for their Lord, never becomes the servant, they have not yet followed Jesus.

 

Yet today most Christians seem to think they deserve money blessed to them by God, & much of it, so they have no worry about paying the bill, having food, shelter, clothes, & such.

 

And please, I know not what any of you are doing, I just pointing what we should be like, & trusting our Lord, for life, family, for our day to day needs. And not be money hungry as so many are nowadays, especially those that are part of the feel good & prosperity churches that's spilling over into our churches.