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Miss Daisy

Entire Month Of Preaching On Tithing?

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Eat the meat, spit out the bones.

Just because a Quaker is not IFB does not mean that he is wrong on all topics of the Bible.

Likewise, just because we IFB's are not Quakers does not mean we are right on every topic.

For the record, I disagree with the majority of the Quakers core beliefs.

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Its called context.
The comments are information, not condemnation, and make no judgement on the subject.

As was rightly pointed out the association with Catholicism would tend the guy the other way - which also CoE would, assuming it was high church CoE.
"Noted historian" is hardly a black mark either.

Context.....
I could make up names or quote friends. These are real people who wrote real books and articles.

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:23 PM

ASongOfDegrees, on 08 Nov 2013 - 5:14 PM, said:snapback.png

would I give either way? Good question.

It was a good question, and a good deflection.

 

Standing firm has given his position about giving way back on April 5th, at 4:42pm post # 27 in reply to a RSS thread from David Cloud: Tithe and the Christian.

 

He does not give to any church because he does not attend one. He was booted out in what he called a "secret meeting" because he did not tithe/give and usurped the pastor's leadership by teaching that tithes are a man made doctrine and so doing, sowed discord among the brethren at that church. He is on a fixed income so therefore does not give. Others are on a fixed income as well and still tithe. If that's how God leads you, then so be it. 

 

Its there, in his own words, go look it up.

 

He is always quick to respond to ANYTHING about giving/tithes. That's his right to do so. You gotta admit, he's got a lot of resources to quote from. Even has his own forum for his personal views and any who agrees with him. Call him what you want but lazy and uneducated are not among them.

 

And just about every thread he does respond in, gets locked by the admins.

 

I forsee this one getting locked down soon too.

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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You are falsely accusing. Both my wife and I gave whenever we had the money to give. We did not, however, bow to the deceptive words of the pastor who said we are to tithe our money.

It was a secret meeting. We were not informed it was to take place. We were informed of the meeting after it had taken place..
I

The fact that it was a unanimous decision is proof that I did not sow discord among the Brethren. Nor did I usurp the pastors authority. I did not teach anything for or against tithing at that Church.
Get your facts straight .

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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No-one at my church knows who gives what when. We have offering bags and we rarely get cheques. Two years ago was the last cheque. Otherwise it is all cash, and the hands fit right into the bags so no-one else can see what you put in. Or don't.

It is no-one else's business - it is between you and God.

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As it should be, Dave.

However, at the Church we were voted out of, the pastor made sure it was his business (even though he was not one of the treasurers) he would confront non tithers one-on-one about their not tithing. Then he would turn around and say from the pulpit that he didn't know who was and who was not tithing.

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Post #68 is what is written in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

It is not necessarily "Catholic", it is information on the history of tithing after the first century. If anything, it reveals where the monetary tithe requirement doctrine originated...in the Catholic church.

And sadly, IFB's and other denominations went whoring after that "Catholic" invention.

Psalms 106:39 (KJV) 39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

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As an ex Catholic, the RCC doesn't even require people to tithe, anyway.

candlelight, while it may be true that your catholic church did not teach tithing, it is also true that some catholic churches do. I have found catholic sites that teach for and some that teach against. Some teach to divide the tithe to different causes.

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:42 PM

To tell you the truth, Matthew, my wife and I gave to the Church what we were able to give.  Some Sundays it was only a few dollars, some five, some more.  We are on disability and have bills and household needs and scripture says we are to take care of household first or we are worse than an infidel.

We no longer give to the Church.  Why not, you may ask?  Because, the IFB Church that we were members of for seven years until the middle of last year, had a secret meeting and voted us out because we did not put money in their tithing envelopes and because we taught against the man-made doctrine of the monetary tithe.

Yes, it is a man-made doctrine.  It is found nowhere within the pages of God's Holy Word.

Why do I say the Church had a "secret meeting"?  Because we were not informed of the meeting until after it had already taken place.  And then, it was by email we were notified.  The ones who voted us out were too cowardly to tell us to our face of the meeting and result. 

How can we still be IFB if we are not in Church?  We still hold to the IFB beliefs (except for that ungodly doctrine of a monetary tithe) and we still listen to IFB messages online.

Here is the full post from back in April. I will stand corrected by this: you did give to the church, while you were still members.

You are right, I am wrong. Forgive me.

 

Here's where the water gets muddy: You taught agents the tithe, calling it a man made doctrine, while still a member of that church.

Were you teaching a Sunday school when you did this? From the pulpit? If you were not given the authority from the pastor (and possibly the deacons) then you usurped his authority.

 

And because you were not envited to the meeting does not mean it was a secret meeting.

 

Was some heavy handed politics used by that pastor agents you? Kinda looks like it.

 

If you believe the tithe is wrong, why did you give when you were a member? or was it a free will offering?

 

Have you found a church to attend yet?

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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candlelight, while it may be true that your catholic church did not teach tithing, it is also true that some catholic churches do. I have found catholic sites that teach for and some that teach against. Some teach to divide the tithe to different causes.

 

I don't know of any RCC that teaches tithing, SFIC.  It may be outlined in the doctrine of the RCC, but it is not taught.  The RCC relies on people who have a lot of money.  For example, I know a family, who donated an altar to an RCC church, years ago.

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Here is the full post from back in April. I will stand corrected by this: you did give to the church, while you were still members.

You are right, I am wrong. Forgive me.

 

Here's where the water gets muddy: You taught agents the tithe, calling it a man made doctrine, while still a member of that church.

Were you teaching a Sunday school when you did this? From the pulpit? If you were not given the authority from the pastor (and possibly the deacons) then you usurped his authority.

 

And because you were not envited to the meeting does not mean it was a secret meeting.

 

Was some heavy handed politics used by that pastor agents you? Kinda looks like it.

 

If you believe the tithe is wrong, why did you give when you were a member? or was it a free will offering?

 

Have you found a church to attend yet?

 

 

Dr. Roberson

The monetary tithe requirement doctrine is man-made.  It cannot be found anywhere in Scripture.

No, I was not teaching Sunday School, nor was I teaching from the pulpit.  I taught outside the walls of the Church... not even in their parking lot.  When I did teach the truth concerning tithing, I did not represent the Church at all.  I was not sent by the pastor to teach, nor was I elected by any deacons to teach. 

Rather, it is God's Word that elicited the urge to teach the truth.

Yes, the pastor was heavy-handed.  By the way, he is also no longer a member of that Church.  He did his dirty work turning the ears of the hearers against the truth and then moved to Florida to deceive another congregation.

All my giving has been free will offering, just as the Bible prescribes our giving should be.

As to our finding another Church yet, no... we haven't.  We are IFB, and that Church is the only IFB in this town.  Our limited income does not afford us the luxury of driving 30 miles to Church 3 times a week.  So, we stay at home and listen to sermons by IFB pastors readily available on the internet.

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Here is the full post from back in April. I will stand corrected by this: you did give to the church, while you were still members.

You are right, I am wrong. Forgive me.

 

Here's where the water gets muddy: You taught agents the tithe, calling it a man made doctrine, while still a member of that church.

Were you teaching a Sunday school when you did this? From the pulpit? If you were not given the authority from the pastor (and possibly the deacons) then you usurped his authority.

 

And because you were not envited to the meeting does not mean it was a secret meeting.

 

Was some heavy handed politics used by that pastor agents you? Kinda looks like it.

 

If you believe the tithe is wrong, why did you give when you were a member? or was it a free will offering?

 

Have you found a church to attend yet?

 

 

Dr. Roberson

"You taught agents the tithe, calling it a man made doctrine, while still a member of that church."   What are "agents the tithe"?

The monetary tithe is a man-made doctrine.  The Biblical OT tithe was never money.

 

That meeting was a "secret meeting" if members are not told that there is going to be a meeting of the "members" at a certain time and place.  At that time, we were still members and we were never informed about a meeting....that makes it "secret".  In addition, the "secret" meeting was about confronting us.  We were not even allowed to "defend" ourselves. Even a criminal is allowed to defend himself in a court of law.  Basically, that meeting was a farce.  The leaders of that church had 4 months to "confront" us, and did nothing until they called that "secret" meeting.  We were informed of the "results" of the "unanimous" vote by email. 

 

No, we have not found another church.

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The High churches all taught a "tax" at times in the past - and most often more than 10% which is the literal meaning of the word tithe.
And it was enforced by the governments of the time who were owned by (or owned) the high churches.

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True, Dave. 

But it is a historical fact that the ancient tithe laws were not taught in the Early Church.  They were resurrected in 585 A.D., at the Council of Macon... a Catholic Council.  For the first couple hundred years after being resurrected, the tithes were the same as in the Mosaic/Levitic Law... of agricultural products.  It was not until 777 A.D. that the Catholic Church once again convened and a decision was made to include money in the list of tithable items.

All recorded historical facts.  Those who teach the monetary tithe requirement doctrine are teaching Catholic doctrine and don't even realize it.

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It was a good question, and a good deflection.

 

Standing firm has given his position about giving way back on April 5th, at 4:42pm post # 27 in reply to a RSS thread from David Cloud: Tithe and the Christian.

 

He does not give to any church because he does not attend one. He was booted out in what he called a "secret meeting" because he did not tithe/give and usurped the pastor's leadership by teaching that tithes are a man made doctrine and so doing, sowed discord among the brethren at that church. He is on a fixed income so therefore does not give. Others are on a fixed income as well and still tithe. If that's how God leads you, then so be it. 

 

Its there, in his own words, go look it up.

 

He is always quick to respond to ANYTHING about giving/tithes. That's his right to do so. You gotta admit, he's got a lot of resources to quote from. Even has his own forum for his personal views and any who agrees with him. Call him what you want but lazy and uneducated are not among them.

 

And just about every thread he does respond in, gets locked by the admins.

 

I forsee this one getting locked down soon too.

 

 

Dr. Roberson

So then he wouldn't give anyway. Why even discuss the issue if this is the case.

 

I wouldn't get into a long drawn out discussion about voting if I never planned to vote to begin with.

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DaveW....what's a "high church"?


Most often in relation to CoE/Anglican but also used generally of Catholic/Lutheran/Orthodox etc.
It relates to the big organised churches which considered themselves above the others.
Anglicans have had two tiers - High, with all the Robes, ceremony, structured priesthood etc; and low, which have at times been almost biblical in their structure, polity, and in some instances teaching.

basically High church is the big grand ceremony type churches, and low church are the independent type non-conformists (wild generalisation there by the way).

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Post #68 is what is written in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

It is not necessarily "Catholic", it is information on the history of tithing after the first century. If anything, it reveals where the monetary tithe requirement doctrine originated...in the Catholic church.

And sadly, IFB's and other denominations went whoring after that "Catholic" invention.

Psalms 106:39 (KJV) 39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

 

Yes, I know, that's why I mentioned Catholic.

 

History outside of the Bible is not God's Word, & we don't build doctrine of word of man, need to stay in the Bible, least that's how I see it. 

 

 

Oh, Catholic & tithing has come up.

 

Tithing is absolutely still necessary in the Catholic Church today. When God introduced the concept of the tithe in the Old Testament He told the Israelites this contribution was necessary from them to support the work of the Levites and the poor in the community. Today our Church still needs our support to pay the expenses and financial obligations it incurs as it operates in a commercial society. Salaries, benefits, insurance, maintenance, utilities and service fees are all expenses that never even existed when Our Lord first decreed that each of us was to give back a percentage of what we have. Additionally, we are still called to care for the poor among us.

 

 
 
And this one seems not to teach tithing.
 

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      Received tithes of the spoils of war, not Abram’s silver and gold.
      Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
      Again, the tithe that men that die receive is referring to the agricultural tithe. The Levites were still receiving that tithe. They would receive it for another four years and then Titus would invade Jerusalem and destroy the Temple, putting a stop to the collection of tithes.

      Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

      Not one of the verses on tithing throughout the Word of God support the doctrine that one is to tithe one’s money. No instruction is given in the Word of God to tithe one’s money. It is a man-made doctrine that began in the Roman Catholic religious system in the year 777 A.D., and not adopted by any Protestant Church until 1873 A.D..

      The Baptists were the last Church denomination to adopt the monetary tithe doctrine. This was around the middle of the twentieth century A.D..
    • By Standing Firm In Christ
      I wrote this article several months ago and just got it off of my blog to share here...

      Extortion:  The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.
      Spanning from 1959 to 1963, Robert Stack starred as Federal Agent Eliot Ness in the TV series “The Untouchables”.
      Eliot Ness worked hard at cleaning up the streets of Chicago, ILL after the city was infiltrated by many crime bosses who would extort money from store owners using strongarm tactics, threats, and often gunplay and murder.
      Extortion was a serious offense and carried a stiff sentence in the Federal Penitentiary if one was convicted of it.  Eliot Ness did not go easy on those who tried to extort money from the citizens of Chicago using scare tactics.
      Today, we can glean from the many episodes of “The Untouchables” an important spiritual truth.  That truth is, just as crime bosses answered to Eliot Ness for their misdeeds, those who offend God’s children will also one day answer to God.
      Many a pastor today stood behind a pulpit and preached a message that was meant to extort money from their congregation through a sermon that was “under color of official right”
      That message is taken from Malachi 3:8-10…. “Will A Man Rob God?”
      Many a pastor had his congregation open their Bibles to Malachi 3:8-10 and read the passage that chapter 1 reveals was to the children of Israel.  They then try to bring the letter to Israel out of Israel and into their city or town in their own country.
      They preach to their congregation that they are “robbing God” because they are not bringing the tithe of their income to the house of God.
      The pastor continues to inform his congregation that if they do not begin to tithe their money, God will attack their finances, their home, their families, their health,  their jobs, their vehicles; the list could go on and on.
      Friends, that message they are presenting fits the legal system’s definition of extortion.  They are trying to instill fear into your mind, fear of disaster, if you don’t get protection.
      They then tell you how to get protection… pay 10% of your income to God!  Friends, that is extortion through and through.
      They preach the message of a 10% tithe “under color of official right,” but if one studies out the specifics of God’s Holy tithe, one will discover that they have no “official right” to collect a tithe from their congregation.
      The tithe was limited to within the boundaries of national Israel and was to be given to the Levites who were living in 48 cities.  It was never authorized to the New Testament Church.
      God’s tithe was also never money according to Leviticus 27 and Numbers 18.
      Shame on those pastors who are guilty of extorting money from their flock!  They one day will answer to God for handling His Word deceitfully and oppressing His people with fear tactics under the guise of “official right.”
      Friends, God’s Holy Word tells us in 2 Corinthians 9:7 that we are to give as we purpose in our own hearts to give.  A tithe does not allow one to purpose what they will give. A tithe is a set amount…10%.  How is one purposing in one’s own heart what to give if he is giving 10% because his pastor told him that is what he is supposed to give?  The fact is, giving what your pastor determines is nothing more than giving of compulsion… giving because you have to.
      Notice 2 Corinthians 9:7…
      2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
      The word “purposeth” is translated from the Greek word “proaireomai”, and it means “to choose for oneself”.  A pastor has no “official right” to tell his congregation to give 10% of their money to the Church.  God’s Word tells the congregation to “choose for oneself” what one wants to give.  God did not tell that pastor to preach to his congregation that they must tithe their money.  Nor did he tell that pastor that the congregation would be cursed if they didn’t tithe their money.
      Friends, give to the Church.  The Church does need money to pay for electricity, sanitation, etc..  But give what you choose for yourself to give, not what someone else tells you you must give.  If you are giving a set amount because you have been told by your pastor to give that amount, then you are not giving according to God’s instructions.
    • By Standing Firm In Christ
      The pastor preached on tithing.

      Now, he knows my wife and I don't tithe. We do not believe it is a New Testament teaching for Christians. The Apostles never taught it in any of their epistles.

      Now, mind you it is not that he preached on tithing that upset us, he has preached on tithing in the past. What upset us is an out and out lie he told in his pulpit.

      He told the congregation that he does not know who tithes and who does not.

      The fact is, he knows my wife and I don't tithe. He has cornered me in the past and told me we need to start tithing. So his statement that he doesn't know who tithes and who does not was an out and out lie.

      Truth be known, no one in the Church tithes... even when they put 10% of their money in one of those white and green "Tithes" envelopes, so the whole sermon was built upon a lie.
    • By Miss Daisy
      Should I tithe from the child support I receive for my daughter?
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