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How Does The Glorious Millennium End In World-Wide Rebellion?

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From the "Chrislam" thread:

Linda: The Millennium is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7)

 

Ian:

 

No. If the millennium does end with a world wide, Satan-led rebellion, as Scripture indicates, then it is NOT the fulfilment of prophecy for Israel. Christ is reigning on earth, & saving his redeemed people. The glorious reign of Christ on earth does not fail (is it does in the premil scheme). The next prophetic event is Christ bring fire from heaven to save the day, & then God brings about a NH&NE.

 

The Rev. 20 millennium reads like the present Gospel age, with the souls of the martyrs in heaven, NOT on earth. Satan is a defeated enemy, so that the Gospel spreads among all nations. That is accompanied by persecution by the ungodly, so we are waiting for Jesus' return to vindicate us. As 2 Thes. 1 says, that coming will be final for the ungodly, & glorious for the saved. At Jesus coming, the tares will be gathered & burnt, not kept alive for 1000 years. Now is the time when the tares are allowed to grow together with the wheat - & many of those tares are changing - God has power to save.

 

 

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As I see it, there is a problem. There is no suggestion in OT prophecy that the eternal blessedness of Israel under King David with end. Yet Rev. 20 sees the earth being overrun by the Satan-led hordes of Gog-Magog. Jesus, it seems does not deal with the rebellion - it needs fire from God, out of heaven. The situation is so serious that, it seems, the promised land Israel has been enjoying is replaced by the NH&NE.

 

Ezek. 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

Zeph. 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

 

Rev. 20:And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

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In fact, the Rev. 20 millennium is extraordinarily similar to the present Gospel age.

 

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

2 Thes. 1:So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Despite Jesus' absolute victory over Satan at the cross, & commissioning the Gospel for all nations, a hostile world inflicts tribulation on the saints. As John says of the martyrs in Rev. 20: I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

That isn't a reign on earth - John saw the souls of them...

 

John's vision is of the Gospel age, NOT a future millennium after Jesus' return, & is very similar to Paul's word to the Thessalonians. Christians suffer tribulation at the hands of the ungodly, & the ungodly suffer tribulation in hell. 

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You have to understand the purpose of the Millennium.  Keep in mind that God's purpose

is to bring glory to himself by saving the greatest number of humans possible.

And he cannot violate his eternal nature in doing so.

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You have to understand the purpose of the Millennium.  Keep in mind that God's purpose

is to bring glory to himself by saving the greatest number of humans possible.

And he cannot violate his eternal nature in doing so.

Are you going to explain what the purpose of the Millennium is?

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Are you going to explain what the purpose of the Millennium is?

I always thought that even under the best of conditions (the Millennium) that man woud prove that he is a sinner. 

I'm sure there are other reasons, known only to God.

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You have to understand the purpose of the Millennium.  Keep in mind that God's purpose

is to bring glory to himself by saving the greatest number of humans possible.

And he cannot violate his eternal nature in doing so.

....

I always thought that even under the best of conditions (the Millennium) that man woud prove that he is a sinner. 

I'm sure there are other reasons, known only to God.

Why should I disagree? The Gospel has gone out to the nations for a double millennium, and still the vast majority of mankind reject the only Saviour & the Gospel of free grace. The hatred of man against the loving & gracious God is intensifying around the world, and even in nominal Christian countries.

 

While there have been many occasions in the past when Christians have thought the return of Christ MUST be imminent, times have changed - Habakkuk's prayer - in wrath, remember mercy - always applies. We cannot say with certainty that his coming is so near that the last generation is alive today. The "this generation" warnings applied to the Jews who rejected their Messiah, & were fulfilled. Peter's encouragement & warning applies:

2 Peter 3:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

....

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; .....

 

The millennium is coming to an end - watch & pray.

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The purpose of the Millennium is for several reasons...most importantly (IMO), it will be to fulfill the prophecies of Christ's physical reign on earth.  The earth will be ruled in perfect righteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, all of the inhabitants of the earth will be subject unto him.

 

It will be a time of perfect peace.  A time of perfect health.  A time of prolonged life.  A time of ALL of the things that the world claims to want today, yet they want it on their own terms.

 

Those who enter the Millennium will be saved; however, they will give birth to children who have a sin-nature.  Those who are lost at the end of the Millennium will comprise the vast army from the nations that Satan deceives.  How will he do it? I don't know, but I can imagine that those lost individuals, who have lived under the righteous rule of Jesus Christ, who know that the Lord is God...when this formerly unknown and powerful individual (Satan) comes to them...and perhaps he offers them the wicked desires that are truly in their hearts if they will side with him in opposition to the Lord...those sinful-lost people of the Millennium will jump at the chance to overthrow Righteousness for the hope of having sin reign.

 

It's the same story that we have today...sinful man rejects the Lord; however, it just shows the depravity of man's heart...they will still reject him even though they have the opportunity to experience their lives with his physical presence.

 

Covenanter, I don't understand your problem with the Lord not dealing with the Satan-led rebellion at the end of the Millennium.  Jesus Christ and God are one.  To me, it just shows that if you reject Jesus Christ, you reject God...and Satan and his deceived army will answer to God for their rebellion and rejection of Jesus Christ...and God answers them and ends eternity's final rebellion with fire.

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The purpose of the Millennium is for several reasons...most importantly (IMO), it will be to fulfill the prophecies of Christ's physical reign on earth.  The earth will be ruled in perfect righteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, all of the inhabitants of the earth will be subject unto him.

 

It will be a time of perfect peace.  A time of perfect health.  A time of prolonged life.  A time of ALL of the things that the world claims to want today, yet they want it on their own terms.

 

That sounds to me like the NH&NE. You are reading disp teaching into Scripture.

 

Those who enter the Millennium will be saved; however, they will give birth to children who have a sin-nature.

I think you are relying on Isaiah's NH&NE - expressed in terms of an idyllic time on earth. There is no suggestion in Jesus' teaching of such a future time - e.g. his parable of the tares indicates a total separation, - eternal blessing or fire - at his coming.

 

 Those who are lost at the end of the Millennium will comprise the vast army from the nations that Satan deceives.  How will he do it? I don't know, but I can imagine that those lost individuals, who have lived under the righteous rule of Jesus Christ, who know that the Lord is God...when this formerly unknown and powerful individual (Satan) comes to them...and perhaps he offers them the wicked desires that are truly in their hearts if they will side with him in opposition to the Lord...those sinful-lost people of the Millennium will jump at the chance to overthrow Righteousness for the hope of having sin reign.

 

It's the same story that we have today...sinful man rejects the Lord; however, it just shows the depravity of man's heart...they will still reject him even though they have the opportunity to experience their lives with his physical presence.

 

Now THAT's an admission - "It's the same story that we have today...sinful man rejects the Lord" so your millennium is the same story as the present Gospel age, with the same ending - see 2 Thes. 1.  

 

Covenanter, I don't understand your problem with the Lord not dealing with the Satan-led rebellion at the end of the Millennium.  Jesus Christ and God are one.  To me, it just shows that if you reject Jesus Christ, you reject God...and Satan and his deceived army will answer to God for their rebellion and rejection of Jesus Christ...and God answers them and ends eternity's final rebellion with fire.

 

The (my) problem is that the age that premils claim is "The earth will be ruled in perfect righteousness by the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, all of the inhabitants of the earth will be subject unto him.It will be a time of perfect peace.  A time of perfect health.  A time of prolonged life. etc" is certainly not as prophesied by e.g. Ezekiel:

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

  A time as promised to Abraham when:

  Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

A time when he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

 

You are imposing an interpretation invented to try to justify disp doctrine. Try reading what Scripture says without imposing a system of  interpretation. My problem is that the prophesied eternal state has a disastrous millennium where Jesus righteous reign collapses.

 

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Covenanter,

 

All that I admitted was that man is the same (sinful in heart) throughout time, and you know that.

 

You're right, that's not prophesied in Ezekiel...I didn't say that it was.  

 

I'm not imposing any type of interpretation other than what God's word plainly teaches.  Not that it matters, but I don't claim to be a dispensationalist. The only dispensations that I agree with are time-frames.  I reject any dispensationalist teaching that says salvation came any other way other than by grace through faith.  Therefore, you're wrong in your assertion in saying that I'm teaching dispensational doctrine.  It's Bible Doctrine.  

 

You answered my question without answering the question.  I don't see why you have such a hard time with the fact that God ends the rebellion rather than Jesus Christ doing it.  Jesus Christ could certainly end the rebellion; however, God chooses to do so.  It certainly isn't a failure to the end of the Millennium! It's God doing what God wants to do.  If the Father wants to be the one to end the rebellion, I don't think the Lord Jesus Christ is going to protest.

Edited by No Nicolaitans

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The Lord Jesus Christ is God.

 

Invicta, I'm not trying to start anything with you...just wondering if you don't accept the Trinity?  

 

Covenanter,

 

This is the last I'll say on the subject.  You and I both claim to be believers; therefore, we both have the same Holy Spirit indwelling us.  The Holy Spirit teaches only truth.

 

I arrived at my beliefs long before I ever heard of Dispensations or Covenant Theology...just a new Christian who was hungry for God's word.  While studying, it never once occurred to me that some of God's word should be spiritualized.  For that matter, I'd never heard of Calvinism either...it never even once occurred to me while reading and studying God's word what Calvinism teaches. I just took God at his word and let it say what it says.  I was never taught "dispensations" as far as I remember.  I saw in God's word that Jesus Christ would rule and reign on this earth one day for 1,000 years, and I accepted it as the truth of God's word.

 

Man has added a lot to God's word.  I would rather stand alone and have every IFB, Southern Baptist, Calvinist, Dispensationalist, Preterist, and any other "ist" in the world hate and despise me before I would teach a man-made doctrine that doesn't agree with God's plain word.

 

If you and I are both saved, and we both have the same Holy Spirit indwelling us...yet we have diametrically opposing views on God's word...then one of us is wrong.  The Holy Spirit wouldn't teach a false interpretation to one child of God and the truth to another.

 

We will both have to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ one day and answer for how we presented this.  One of us will be wrong that day.

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Yes of course I believe in the Trinity

 

Tha father is God 

The Son is God

The Holy Spirit is God.

 

Therefore Jesus is God.

 

Genesis 1:1 ¶  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
 
John 1:1 ¶  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
 
Hebrews 1: 1 ¶  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 
John 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
 

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Covenanter,

 

This is the last I'll say on the subject.  You and I both claim to be believers; therefore, we both have the same Holy Spirit indwelling us.  The Holy Spirit teaches only truth.

 

True - but have you (we) never heard teachers, sermons, read books, tracts internet articles, etc?

 

I arrived at my beliefs long before I ever heard of Dispensations or Covenant Theology...just a new Christian who was hungry for God's word.  While studying, it never once occurred to me that some of God's word should be spiritualized.

 

So you didn't notice Jesus constantly correcting the Scribes & Pharisees for their literalism? Or Paul in 2 Cor. 3:Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

 For that matter, I'd never heard of Calvinism either...it never even once occurred to me while reading and studying God's word what Calvinism teaches. I just took God at his word and let it say what it says.  I was never taught "dispensations" as far as I remember.  I saw in God's word that Jesus Christ would rule and reign on this earth one day for 1,000 years, and I accepted it as the truth of God's word.

 

Rev. 20 does say that. John sees the souls of the martyrs in heaven, not on earth, ... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Man has added a lot to God's word.  I would rather stand alone and have every IFB, Southern Baptist, Calvinist, Dispensationalist, Preterist, and any other "ist" in the world hate and despise me before I would teach a man-made doctrine that doesn't agree with God's plain word.

 

The obvious danger is that if every other Christian by the same Holy Spirit teaches something contrary to what we believe, then we have to consider whether we are wrong rather than everybody else. That. of course, is why I only answer these threads from Scripture. Do you "hate & despise me" because I teach what YOU consider man-doctrine? I preach Jesus Christ crucified & risen, LORD & Saviour, & I preach his return in glory for resurrection & judgement, & to establish new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

If you and I are both saved, and we both have the same Holy Spirit indwelling us...yet we have diametrically opposing views on God's word...then one of us is wrong.  The Holy Spirit wouldn't teach a false interpretation to one child of God and the truth to another.

 

We will both have to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ one day and answer for how we presented this.  One of us will be wrong that day.

 

Good point - but Paul was constantly correcting errors in the churches he was writing to. Surely in truth both of us will be right when we stand before God - right with God through faith in Jesus. We are all redeemed sinners, saved by grace.   

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I said that I wouldn't say anymore about this, but since you asked me some questions, I will oblige.

 

 

 

Well, yes and no...I don't read other men's books concerning theology, but that's me.  Since you mention this, I have to ask if you held this position for your entire Christian life, or did you become a Covenanter after being exposed to the writings/teachings/sermons of others? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

 

 

No; however, what I did notice was Jesus correcting them for their self-righteousness and their teaching for doctrine the commandments of men...they added to God's word and taught it as God's word.

 

I don't see what 2 Corinthians 3:6 has to do with spiritualizing anything...it's very literal.  We are made ministers of the new testament, not of the letter (the law).  

 

 

 

 

They will rule and reign with Christ...when Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years.  

 

 

 

 
My point was...too many people's allegiance is to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system.  It wouldn't matter if the movement, doctrine, denomination, or system went completely heretical...those people would still fight tooth-and-nail for their movement, doctrine, denomination, or system...rather than staying true to God's word.  It has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen.
 
No sir, I do not hate and despise you. From what I've read in some of your posts, I think you're someone that I could be friends with. You seem to have a joyful demeanor, you present yourself as a gentleman, and you have an obvious love for the Lord. However, I believe you're wrong in your doctrine and your promotion of it; therefore, scripture says that I should have no fellowship with you.  
 

 

 

 

 

That also is a good point; however, those churches didn't have the full counsel of God as we do today.  Maybe I'm too hard-nosed about this, but man has no excuse for teaching error today.  We have the full counsel of God, and we also have the Holy Spirit to teach us as we read and study his word.  The problem is...as I mentioned above...too many give their allegiance to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system rather than to the Lord and his word...and many just want their own following because of pride.  They are willing (and do) turn their head away from error, adopt error, and eventually promote error in order to please men.

 

Am I saying that I'm above error? No, and there have been times that I've realized that I was wrong. Am I immune to error? No, I'm still human. Is that an excuse for error? A thousand times no!

 

Yes, we will both be "right" when we stand before the Lord, but that doesn't negate the fact that we will be judged according to our works in order to gain or lose rewards. Sadly, one of us will have this area to answer for, and it's a tremendously important area, because it has to do with the teaching of God's holy word...which he holds above his very name.  One of us will see this burn as stubble for tampering with his word. There will be no excuses. We will know we were wrong, and we will lose out on a reward that we could have cast back at the feet of the One who suffered, bled, died, and rose again for us.

 

He's the only One worthy of our allegiance...not Calvin, Arminius, Scofield, Preterism, or any other movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.  If any of them disagree with him and his word, then we are better off to lay them aside and stay true to him.  The Lord doesn't require us to jump through hoops, yet many are willing to jump through hoops in order to justify a man-made movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.

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I said that I wouldn't say anymore about this, but since you asked me some questions, I will oblige.

 

 

Well, yes and no...I don't read other men's books concerning theology, but that's me.  Since you mention this, I have to ask if you held this position for your entire Christian life, or did you become a Covenanter after being exposed to the writings/teachings/sermons of others? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

 

No; however, what I did notice was Jesus correcting them for their self-righteousness and their teaching for doctrine the commandments of men...they added to God's word and taught it as God's word.

 

I don't see what 2 Corinthians 3:6 has to do with spiritualizing anything...it's very literal.  We are made ministers of the new testament, not of the letter (the law).  

 

 

 

They will rule and reign with Christ...when Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years.  

 

 

 
My point was...too many people's allegiance is to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system.  It wouldn't matter if the movement, doctrine, denomination, or system went completely heretical...those people would still fight tooth-and-nail for their movement, doctrine, denomination, or system...rather than staying true to God's word.  It has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen.
 
No sir, I do not hate and despise you. From what I've read in some of your posts, I think you're someone that I could be friends with. You seem to have a joyful demeanor, you present yourself as a gentleman, and you have an obvious love for the Lord. However, I believe you're wrong in your doctrine and your promotion of it; therefore, scripture says that I should have no fellowship with you.  
 

 

 

That also is a good point; however, those churches didn't have the full counsel of God as we do today.  Maybe I'm too hard-nosed about this, but man has no excuse for teaching error today.  We have the full counsel of God, and we also have the Holy Spirit to teach us as we read and study his word.  The problem is...as I mentioned above...too many give their allegiance to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system rather than to the Lord and his word...and many just want their own following because of pride.  They are willing (and do) turn their head away from error, adopt error, and eventually promote error in order to please men.

 

Am I saying that I'm above error? No, and there have been times that I've realized that I was wrong. Am I immune to error? No, I'm still human. Is that an excuse for error? A thousand times no!

 

Yes, we will both be "right" when we stand before the Lord, but that doesn't negate the fact that we will be judged according to our works in order to gain or lose rewards. Sadly, one of us will have this area to answer for, and it's a tremendously important area, because it has to do with the teaching of God's holy word...which he holds above his very name.  One of us will see this burn as stubble for tampering with his word. There will be no excuses. We will know we were wrong, and we will lose out on a reward that we could have cast back at the feet of the One who suffered, bled, died, and rose again for us.

 

He's the only One worthy of our allegiance...not Calvin, Arminius, Scofield, Preterism, or any other movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.  If any of them disagree with him and his word, then we are better off to lay them aside and stay true to him.  The Lord doesn't require us to jump through hoops, yet many are willing to jump through hoops in order to justify a man-made movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.

 

While I certainly appreciate your input here, I have to ask why you believe you can't fellowship with someone who holds to a different eschatological viewpoint than you do?

 

Christians have had the Word of God for centuries and throughout that time, different men of God have come to different conclusions when it comes to their study of eschatology. Some of the "greats" have held to nearly identical views on the key points of Scripture yet held differing views regarding eschatology.

 

Unless one is a fanatic about their eschatological viewpoint and can do nothing but focus upon that, I don't see why another Christian couldn't fellowship with them (unless you are using a different definition of fellowship than I am).

 

Thus far, I've only personally encountered a couple of people I couldn't fellowship with because of their eschatology (they were pre-mil, but it wasn't that fact that was the problem). It wasn't really their eschatology that was the problem, it was the fact they were totally eschatological centered and could discuss nothing and do nothing without it having some relationship to their eschatological viewpoint. If they heard a report on the news of a bird dying while flying over Damascus they would talk about it for days and how that all fit into God's plan of the end times and this would directly lead to this and that. If one wanted to discuss something with them regarding another aspect of Scripture they would yet turn it all into a Tim LaHaye novel. Even if someone tried to speak with them about their childs upcoming birthday, they would find a way to make it a Left Behind lecture.

 

Other than them, I know Christians who hold to pre-mil, mid-trib, post-trib, Amil, etc., and because their whole life doesn't revolve around that one view, we can have fellowship.

 

Anyway, not really "arguing" with you or anything, as I say, I appreciate you adding your points here, but I don't understand the point regarding fellowship.

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While I certainly appreciate your input here, I have to ask why you believe you can't fellowship with someone who holds to a different eschatological viewpoint than you do?

 

(unless you are using a different definition of fellowship than I am).

 

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 
Perhaps my definition is different.  In my opinion, the fellowship as viewed today is much different than the biblical definition and how fellowship was experienced by the early church.  Today, and this is a loose explanation, fellowship basically means to enjoy one another's company. Many churches have "a time of fellowship" during their services where you go around the church shaking hands and greet the other members. That's good, but it's not biblical fellowship.  It's just saying hello and shaking hands.
 
Many churches have "fellowship meals" together.  That can be part of biblical fellowship, but it doesn't entail all that biblical fellowship is.
 
Many Christians spend time talking to one another, laughing, sharing heartaches, etc.  That too, can comprise part of biblical fellowship, but true biblical fellowship is much deeper.
 
Biblical fellowship is a partnership.  It is to partner together because you share the same goals and beliefs.  It is to pool your resources together as one...to even share each other's financial burdens as one.
 
It's not that I couldn't laugh with Covenanter about life or sit down and eat a meal with him.  I would probably enjoy that.  But I couldn't partner with him. Preterism isn't simply a different Eschatological view...it's a completely different way of interpreting God's word.  
 
I know that it sounds harsh, and it's not my intention to harm Covenanter, because I do actually like him.  However, if I'm to avoid him because of doctrinal differences, I certainly can't fellowship with him.
 
I've purposely avoided commenting on his posts up until now out of respect and so as not to cause any dissension.  I shouldn't have commented on this thread.
 
I apologize.

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Well, yes and no...I don't read other men's books concerning theology, but that's me.  Since you mention this, I have to ask if you held this position for your entire Christian life, or did you become a Covenanter after being exposed to the writings/teachings/sermons of others? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

I was taught a premil outline at Bible class, without understanding it. I was puzzled as it had never occurred to me that anything other than the eternal state came after Jesus' return. At university I heard more about the premil from users of Scofield, & queried the doctrine with pastors at uni & at home. They showed my from Scripture how to understand Rev 20 from the amil perspective, & how that understanding agreed with NT prophecy

 

Covenant theology is separate from eschatology - the NT is absolutely clear that the new covenant was inauguarated at the last supper & ratified at the cross. I could still believe in a future millennium & hold to covenant theology. My preterist understanding is relatively recent - about 10 years.  

 

My point was...too many people's allegiance is to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system.  It wouldn't matter if the movement, doctrine, denomination, or system went completely heretical...those people would still fight tooth-and-nail for their movement, doctrine, denomination, or system...rather than staying true to God's word.  It has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen.

 

I entirely agree, but I see that attitude with the premils who, except in your case, are following a century old tradition popularised by Scofield with his one volume annotated Bible which was made freely available to US Bible colleges. As you will see on another thread, they are resorting to slander.

 

Christians disagree on many things - the KJV translators were ALL infant baptists, & all church of England. Does that invalidate their work?  

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Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 
Perhaps my definition is different.  In my opinion, the fellowship as viewed today is much different than the biblical definition and how fellowship was experienced by the early church.  Today, and this is a loose explanation, fellowship basically means to enjoy one another's company. Many churches have "a time of fellowship" during their services where you go around the church shaking hands and greet the other members. That's good, but it's not biblical fellowship.  It's just saying hello and shaking hands.
 
Many churches have "fellowship meals" together.  That can be part of biblical fellowship, but it doesn't entail all that biblical fellowship is.
 
Many Christians spend time talking to one another, laughing, sharing heartaches, etc.  That too, can comprise part of biblical fellowship, but true biblical fellowship is much deeper.
 
Biblical fellowship is a partnership.  It is to partner together because you share the same goals and beliefs.  It is to pool your resources together as one...to even share each other's financial burdens as one.
 
It's not that I couldn't laugh with Covenanter about life or sit down and eat a meal with him.  I would probably enjoy that.  But I couldn't partner with him. Preterism isn't simply a different Eschatological view...it's a completely different way of interpreting God's word.  
 
I know that it sounds harsh, and it's not my intention to harm Covenanter, because I do actually like him.  However, if I'm to avoid him because of doctrinal differences, I certainly can't fellowship with him.
 
I've purposely avoided commenting on his posts up until now out of respect and so as not to cause any dissension.  I shouldn't have commented on this thread.
 
I apologize.

 

Actually, I think it was good that you commented on this thread.

 

There are differing levels, per se, of fellowship. There is the deep level of those who walk together, attend the same church together, work together for the Lord and such. Then there is fellowship shared with other Christians on a much smaller scale which typically doesn't involve any partnership or working together. Similar to the difference between a truly best friend which one spends much time with and does much with, and a casual friend that one only sees once in awhile. That's closer to what I was thinking.

 

By your interpretation of fellowship, I can understand why you said what you did. While I believe one can have a measure of fellowship on a limited scale, which I would place there with your description of meeting with someone for a meal, you don't consider such fellowship. That's fine, as I don't see that our definitions of fellowship is the issue, more that we would both be wiling to have a meal and share a bit of time with a fellow Christian even if they held to a different eschatological view.

 

Again, I appreciate your input, and I do hope you won't limit your sharing of potentially helpful insights. Thank you for your explanation which makes your view on that point clear to me.

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I was taught a premil outline at Bible class, without understanding it. I was puzzled as it had never occurred to me that anything other than the eternal state came after Jesus' return. At university I heard more about the premil from users of Scofield, & queried the doctrine with pastors at uni & at home. They showed my from Scripture how to understand Rev 20 from the amil perspective, & how that understanding agreed with NT prophecy

 

Covenant theology is separate from eschatology - the NT is absolutely clear that the new covenant was inauguarated at the last supper & ratified at the cross. I could still believe in a future millennium & hold to covenant theology. My preterist understanding is relatively recent - about 10 years.  

 

Thank you for your answer to my question.

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I said that I wouldn't say anymore about this, but since you asked me some questions, I will oblige.

 

 

Well, yes and no...I don't read other men's books concerning theology, but that's me.  Since you mention this, I have to ask if you held this position for your entire Christian life, or did you become a Covenanter after being exposed to the writings/teachings/sermons of others? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

 

No; however, what I did notice was Jesus correcting them for their self-righteousness and their teaching for doctrine the commandments of men...they added to God's word and taught it as God's word.

 

I don't see what 2 Corinthians 3:6 has to do with spiritualizing anything...it's very literal.  We are made ministers of the new testament, not of the letter (the law).  

 

 

 

They will rule and reign with Christ...when Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years.  

 

 

 
My point was...too many people's allegiance is to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system.  It wouldn't matter if the movement, doctrine, denomination, or system went completely heretical...those people would still fight tooth-and-nail for their movement, doctrine, denomination, or system...rather than staying true to God's word.  It has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen.
 
No sir, I do not hate and despise you. From what I've read in some of your posts, I think you're someone that I could be friends with. You seem to have a joyful demeanor, you present yourself as a gentleman, and you have an obvious love for the Lord. However, I believe you're wrong in your doctrine and your promotion of it; therefore, scripture says that I should have no fellowship with you.  
 

 

 

That also is a good point; however, those churches didn't have the full counsel of God as we do today.  Maybe I'm too hard-nosed about this, but man has no excuse for teaching error today.  We have the full counsel of God, and we also have the Holy Spirit to teach us as we read and study his word.  The problem is...as I mentioned above...too many give their allegiance to a movement, a doctrine, a denomination, or a system rather than to the Lord and his word...and many just want their own following because of pride.  They are willing (and do) turn their head away from error, adopt error, and eventually promote error in order to please men.

 

Am I saying that I'm above error? No, and there have been times that I've realized that I was wrong. Am I immune to error? No, I'm still human. Is that an excuse for error? A thousand times no!

 

Yes, we will both be "right" when we stand before the Lord, but that doesn't negate the fact that we will be judged according to our works in order to gain or lose rewards. Sadly, one of us will have this area to answer for, and it's a tremendously important area, because it has to do with the teaching of God's holy word...which he holds above his very name.  One of us will see this burn as stubble for tampering with his word. There will be no excuses. We will know we were wrong, and we will lose out on a reward that we could have cast back at the feet of the One who suffered, bled, died, and rose again for us.

 

He's the only One worthy of our allegiance...not Calvin, Arminius, Scofield, Preterism, or any other movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.  If any of them disagree with him and his word, then we are better off to lay them aside and stay true to him.  The Lord doesn't require us to jump through hoops, yet many are willing to jump through hoops in order to justify a man-made movement, doctrine, denomination, or system.

 

 

 

On the other hand, you could both be wrong.  And the various points of view about eschatology are just that.  It is not doctrine but personal interpretation.  If you should read the Baptist declarations of 1644, 1646, and 1689, you will see that the Baptists at that time did not agree with either of you.  Would you not have fellowship with the early Baptists?

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On the other hand, you could both be wrong.  And the various points of view about eschatology are just that.  It is not doctrine but personal interpretation.  If you should read the Baptist declarations of 1644, 1646, and 1689, you will see that the Baptists at that time did not agree with either of you.  Would you not have fellowship with the early Baptists?

 

That's a good suggestion Invicta...it may be bad on my part, but I don't have an interest in reading things like that.  Well, if the mood hits me, I might.  I have a Church History book that I've had for months and months.  I was really excited to get it, and I dove into it for about 15 minutes...and I haven't looked at it again since.   

 

To be honest, there are many Baptists today that I wouldn't fellowship with.

 

I'm really digging myself into a hole.  I promise that I don't think that I'm perfect (there are people on this forum who know this).  I just have some convictions that I have been asked about, and I'm answering them honestly...and humbly.

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That's a good suggestion Invicta...it may be bad on my part, but I don't have an interest in reading things like that.  Well, if the mood hits me, I might.  I have a Church History book that I've had for months and months.  I was really excited to get it, and I dove into it for about 15 minutes...and I haven't looked at it again since.   

 

To be honest, there are many Baptists today that I wouldn't fellowship with.

 

I'm really digging myself into a hole.  I promise that I don't think that I'm perfect (there are people on this forum who know this).  I just have some convictions that I have been asked about, and I'm answering them honestly...and humbly.

 

Please, don't apologize for stating God's truths. So sad, many will follow any breeze no matter which direction it may blow, & never make a stand. Seems they feel the Christian is never to take a stand, & never tell anyone they're wrong. And the fact is if we take a stand with Jesus, if we truly walk with Him, some will be offended. And they also believe your to fellowship with anyone who calls them self a Christian, no matter what they believe & teach.

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That's a good suggestion Invicta...it may be bad on my part, but I don't have an interest in reading things like that.  Well, if the mood hits me, I might.  I have a Church History book that I've had for months and months.  I was really excited to get it, and I dove into it for about 15 minutes...and I haven't looked at it again since.   

 

To be honest, there are many Baptists today that I wouldn't fellowship with.

 

I'm really digging myself into a hole.  I promise that I don't think that I'm perfect (there are people on this forum who know this).  I just have some convictions that I have been asked about, and I'm answering them honestly...and humbly.

One thing about Christian history books, one typically has to read such with a huge grain of salt, a lot of prayer and discernment, and it certainly doesn't hurt if one already has at least a basic understanding of history in general.

 

The problem is, most Christian history books are written by those attempting to either make their "brand" of Christianity look good regardless of the facts, or to make Christians in general look bad.

 

Oddly enough, the best Christian history book I've ever read was written by a Catholic and a Christian. That book had the most accurate history of the RCC I've ever read (most either leave stuff out and gloss things over to make the RCC look good, or they go to unfactual extremes to make the RCC look even worse than they are). Reading that book one could clearly see the corruption and worldliness of the RCC from its roots to the present (present date of the book). There was also an accurate putting forth of the "other Christians" who existed all along outside the RCC from its beginning (not since the Reformation as the RCC tries to teach) to today (time of books writing).

 

I found that book in a corner of our local library and decided to try it during a summer reading program when I was desperate to find anything at all that might be worth my time reading. Had I known the library was going to toss the book I would have wrote down the title and authors, and if possible I would have allowed them to give me the book rather than putting it out in the trash.

 

As to your positions, I don't see you trying to force your personal convictions for separation upon others, simply stating them, which is appropriate.

 

There are a number of IFB and other Baptist churches in this area that are little different than many of the "protestant" churches around. Again, nothing wrong with you pointing out the truth there either.

 

Speaking in general now, not specifically to you, I respect any Christian who can put forth a Scriptural reason for their particular eschatological views whether I agree with them or not. For instance, I've heard some Christians put forth a very pathetic argument for the pre-mil position and there is nothing to respect there, yet I've heard/read David Jeremiah put forth a reasonable Scriptural argument for the pre-mil position and that I do respect. (The same applies to other views, I only point out the pre-mil example because most here are pre-mil and likely familiar with what I'm referring to)

 

Again, thank you for your contributions.

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At the beginning of the 1000 year, kingdom age all of Israel's people will be brought back to Israel where the Gentiles will serve them gladly. The Gentiles will bring supplies to rebuild the temple and the cities of Israel on the earth. The church will be in the New Jerusalem in the sky over the hills of Israel.

 

Micah 4:1

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

 

Isaiah 14:1-2

1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

 

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

 

 

Isaiah 60:1-22

1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

 

2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

 

3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

 

4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

 

5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

 

6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.

 

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

 

8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

 

9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

 

10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

 

11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

 

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

 

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

 

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

 

15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

 

16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

 

18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

 

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

 

20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

 

21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

 

22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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