How Many Times Must I Be Baptized?

[JerryNumbers]

Landmark Baptists hold that the NT model for the church is only the local and visible congregation and that it violates NT principles to speak of a universal, spiritual church. They also believe that Communion should be restricted to members of the local assembly and that baptism is valid only when administered in a properly constituted local Baptist congregation. They also believe that a historic "Baptist succession" may be traced from John the Baptist to modern Baptist churches in which believer's baptism and Landmark principles have prevailed.

 

http://middletownbiblechurch.org/lochurch/landmark.htm

 

Landmark Baptists is another name for Baptist Brider.

 

Just go to the Bible & see what it says about the subject, the Bible is always right.

[JerryNumbers]

 The church is the body of born again believers from the resurrection to the rapture that have been and will be united with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  This is as clear as the noon day sun in the scripture. Who cares what the RCC may or may not say. They say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and are correct about that. Do we reject that truth because the RCC teaches it? Just because the RCC may say one thing doesn't make it incorrect.

 

Some people likes to know where a teaching started, maybe you don't, so if you want to use the RCC doctrine, have at it & enjoy. Yet its best to go by the Bible.

[JerryNumbers]

It may not fully exist but it still does. It's a still temple being built.

 

Not really, like, each New Testament Church is being added to, just as it was on the day of Pentecost.

 

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

At that time there was only one church, the one Jesus started, the church at Jerusalem, & on that day they added members to the church church at Jerusalem, & if you will read forward from there you will read about many more churches, each one of them being a fully complete church.

[JerryNumbers]

I would like to ask a question.

 

I believe most of you would agree that there’s only one way a person can be saved, that being by grace though faith in Jesus, not of self, not of works, it’s a free gift.

 

Most churches in this country do not teach that, they teach your saved by works, by baptizing, & you must be a member of their church. That is like a thief they try to steal their way into Heaven.

 

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

 

As this verse says, they refuse to come into the door of the sheepfold, they try to climb in some other way, just as a robber would try to come in your house.

 

Do you really believe those churches that teaches this has any scriptural [God given} authority from Jesus to baptize those who accept Him as their Savior as He has set it up? Do you believe such churches are true New Testament Churches? What about their pastors, being as they try to come into the sheepfold by another door, & are not saved, do you believe they're called to preach & be pastors of one of His churches. 

 

Remember those who try to come into the sheepfold by another door, John 10:1, are lost in their sins & Jesus will tell them I never knew you, Matthew 7:21,22,23.

[Ukulelemike]

No, its not. Being as there is no universal church, your not a member of every New Testament Church that exist, if there was a universal church there would be no local church, & all of us would be members of the universal church & there would only be one pastor.

 

Yes, Jesus started the 1st church, during that time there was only one church, but He sent them out, scattered them, them there was not just one church, but churches. Start off reading Acts, you will discover the many local churches during that day that were founded, each one of them was self sufficient, self govern, & fully a New Testament Church, & had a pastor {under-shepherd}, with Christ as its head

 

And the point is, your not a member of a universal church, your a member of your local church. My local church has no authority over you, yet the local church your a member of does. Therefore when you partake of the Lord's Supper, do so with your church family as God wishes.

 

Saul & Barnabas can be seen submitting their self under the authority of a local church in Acts 13:1-3

 

As for us all being one, we will one day, when the harvest comes, until them each local church & its members has a big important job on their hands in their local church, lets be about it, while encouraging our fellow church members to good works.

 

Oh, RCC invented the universal church you speak of, & placed a called a pope as its head, not Christ.

 

Yes, I understand, when a person is use to hearing one thing, & have been taught that, when someone bring something that's different, usually they will quickly reject it, without diving into the Bible to see if its truly supported by the Bible. The wise will dive into the Bible to check it out, not just reject it just because they never heard of it.

So what you are saying is that Jesus only built one church, the one in Jerusalem? Because according to your interpretation, that is the only one He claimed to be building.

 

In Gal 1:13, Paul said, "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:" Which "church', singular, did Paul persecute? Apparently he was persecuting many churches but in his mind, was it ONLY one church? In context, being Galatians was it the Galatian churches? As well, there were Galatian "churches", not just a sinlge church, so Paul refering to the 'church' he persecuted could not be that to which he was sriting, as he wrote to more than one church in Galatia.

 

 

Eph 1:22, Paul wrote, "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," Which church? Just Ephesus?

   

When Paul speaks of the relationship of husband and wife as a picture of Jesus and 'the church', which one? Only Ephesus?

 

My point being, in context, there is obviously a 'church' in a more general sense than just the individual, local church. Otherwise Jesus is the head of only the Ephesian church, and the church in Colosse, (And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."Colossians 1:18).

 

But aside all that, the Bible specifically speaks of a general, universal, heavenly church:

          "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," (Hebrews 12:22, 23)

 

Simply spoken, there are not many, but deifinitely, there are some references to the 'church' that in context, cannot refer to a local church assembly. As well, Hebrews 12 says it specifically, that there is a general assembly and church of the firstborn, which is in heavenly Jerusalem.

 

I am surely a local church person. What the RCC espouses as a universal church is THEIR wicked organization, not God's general assembly of Hebrews 12. But there is surely and clearly the local church, and there is the general assembly in Heaven.

[Ukulelemike]

 

I would like to ask a question.

 

I believe most of you would agree that there’s only one way a person can be saved, that being by grace though faith in Jesus, not of self, not of works, it’s a free gift.

 

Most churches in this country do not teach that, they teach your saved by works, by baptizing, & you must be a member of their church. That is like a thief they try to steal their way into Heaven.

 

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

 

As this verse says, they refuse to come into the door of the sheepfold, they try to climb in some other way, just as a robber would try to come in your house.

 

Do you really believe those churches that teaches this has any scriptural [God given} authority from Jesus to baptize those who accept Him as their Savior as He has set it up? Do you believe such churches are true New Testament Churches? What about their pastors, being as they try to come into the sheepfold by another door, & are not saved, do you believe they're called to preach & be pastors of one of His churches. 

 

Remember those who try to come into the sheepfold by another door, John 10:1, are lost in their sins & Jesus will tell them I never knew you, Matthew 7:21,22,23.

 

I don't know, but apparently, Laodicea was still the Lord's church, even though He was locked out of it-their candle was still in place.

 

However, the issue of a universal church has nothing to do with physical local churches, but that which is made up af all believers, which will exist only in heaven, called 'the general assembly and church of the firstborn' in Hebrews 12.

 

You are thinking flesh, which is the local church-I am speaking spirit, the heavenly assembly.

[DaveW]

The church in heaven that you speak of is a local church - all in one place with a pastor (the Lord). It fits the proper meaning of a local church in every way. It is just huge. ;)

[Ukulelemike]

The church in heaven that you speak of is a local church - all in one place with a pastor (the Lord). It fits the proper meaning of a local church in every way. It is just huge.

True, but it is still the 'universal' church, in that it will one day contain ALL believers of ALL times at ONE place. This is the 'church', specifically, that Jesus spoke of when He said He would build His church-not a specific, local, earthly assembly, but a universal-(all Christans included and a member, regardless of their local affiliation on earth)-church. It will be the ONLY local church at some point.

[JerryNumbers]

I don't know, but apparently, Laodicea was still the Lord's church, even though He was locked out of it-their candle was still in place.

 

However, the issue of a universal church has nothing to do with physical local churches, but that which is made up af all believers, which will exist only in heaven, called 'the general assembly and church of the firstborn' in Hebrews 12.

 

You are thinking flesh, which is the local church-I am speaking spirit, the heavenly assembly.

 

 

I did not refer to the church at Laodicea, I refereed to all those churches throughout our country that teaches works base salvation. You failed to mention your thoughts about them. One thing for sure, according to the Bible they are not New Testament Church & Jesus has nothing to do with them.

 

No, I'm not thinking flesh, I thinking of God's way, which is not mans way.

[Ukulelemike]

I did not refer to the church at Laodicea, I refereed to all those churches throughout our country that teaches works base salvation. You failed to mention your thoughts about them. One thing for sure, according to the Bible they are not New Testament Church & Jesus has nothing to do with them.

 

No, I'm not thinking flesh, I thinking of God's way, which is not mans way.

The reason I mentioned Laodicea is because it is a great picture of many of the churches you mention-worldly, man-centered, Jesus locked out in preference to the ways of the world, seeking after riches not God. Luke-warm. Laodicea had NOTHING going for it, EXCEPT that Jesus still considred them His.

 

See, somewhere I think our trains of thoughts are on different but parallel tracks, and I think maybe you aren't understanding what I am saying, because you're really not answering what I am saying here.

 

I am NOT saying that every organization that calls itself a church, IS a church, nor that we should fellowship with them all, nor that we should all join hands and sing Kumbayah together as we partake of the Lord's supper. What I AM saying is that clearly, from a biblical point of view, there are local, New testament churches, and there is a general assembly church of the firstborn in heaven, which will one day be made up of all believers. When Jesus speaks in a general sense of the church, or when Paul or others did, this is the 'church' being spoken of, not some earthly universal 'church'. Its in the Bible. On this earth, yes, we are cnocerened with the local assemblies, of which we are to join and be a part. Today thee is no universal church upon earth-but there WILL be one day, under Christ, which will be made up of all believers-it has begun to form in heaven made up of the saints, but it is not yet fully realized.

 

Not seeing the problem here.

[JerryNumbers]

The church at Laodicea is a complete local church. As is, Ro 16:1 the church which is at Cenchrea, Ro 16:5 the church that is in their house, 1Co 1:2 the church of God which is at Corinth, 1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia, Col 4:15 the church which is in his house, 1Th 1:1 the church of the Thessalonians, 2Ti 4:22 the church of the Ephesians, Tit 3:15 the church of the Cretians, 1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, Re 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna, Re 2:12 the church in Pergamos, Re 2:18 the church in Thyatira, Re 3:1 the church in Sardis, Re 3:7 the church in Philadelphia.

 

And the letters are addressed to the church at ------------! Describing the problems they have in that church. Not to the church.

 

Universal Church versus the Local Church

 

THE CHURCH AS THE BRIDE OF CHRIST  by Jack Hyles This touches on the thing you & many others call the universal church, its a sermon you can set & listen to, & it tells how you can become a mbmer of one of Jesus new Testament Churches.

[Salyan]

Not really, like, each New Testament Church is being added to, just as it was on the day of Pentecost.

 

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

At that time there was only one church, the one Jesus started, the church at Jerusalem, & on that day they added members to the church church at Jerusalem, & if you will read forward from there you will read about many more churches, each one of them being a fully complete church.

 

Jerry, if there are only local churches and no eventual one great church in heaven, then which church is this passage speaking about?

 

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
Hebrews 12:22-24

[irishman]

Did you all know that the Catholic church calls themselves a "Universal church"?  In fact, the word Catholic means universal.  I believe that many babe have sprung from the "mother church" (Catholics call themselves that too!), and only the Baptist church can properly trace it's roots back to Christ and the New Testament.  All other churches are illegitimate children of the great whore in Revelation, who has committed adultery with the world in many ways. 

 

That being said I see no universal church too.  I go to a "visible" church with a "visible" pastor and a "visible" local congregation, not an invisible church without deacons, pastors, or even baptisms or communions.  If you want to refer as the jolly green giant did to Christs statement to Peter, "Upon this Rock will I build my church" take a close look at it.  First, the foundation was laid for "the church" as a whole, which answers his statement about the church in Galations (post #50).  When Paul said he persecuted "the church of God" he spoke of churches collectively, which would be the churches all over the place.  We are all members of Christ's body, but not all members an invisible church, not until it is united in Heaven at the wedding.  Today, now, here on earth, we have only local churches, not universal--a "universal" church would destroy fellowship with the brethren, baptisms, communion, missionary support, etc--all the duties and joys of the local church would be of none effect, and who would be the shepherd?  If you say Christ would, you promote anarchy on earth, as He is claimed by many false teachers as their motivation for their doctrines.(which is the problem today).

THINK about it.

[bzmomo7]

http://www.jackhyles.com/Enemies.htm  This is a link to Jack Hyle's book The Enemies of Soul-Winning.   Scroll down to Chapter 11 to find out quickly what he believed on the subject.  In some ways, many people are arguing semantics.  Hyles did not believe the way Landmark Baptists do.  There are Baptist churches who teach that you must be baptized by a "church of like faith" in order to transfer your membership to their church without having to be re-baptized.  (this may include the exclusion of other "Baptist" churches who do not share their doctrine on specific issues apart from the Baptist distinctives or it will vary from church to church, as in some will take other "Baptist baptisms only, and some will be fine as long as it was by immersion)  There are Baptist churches who will require you to be re-baptized no matter where you came from.  These churches teach church succession.  (like following a lineage, and they believe that they alone have the ONLY authority to teach and preach God's Word and administer His ordinances, etc.)  They believe all other churches to be apostate, and have "alien" baptisms.  We actually sat under a preacher for a short time who said all other churches that were not of his like faith were of the devil and he believed even if their were saved people in those churches, that they would NOT be taken in the rapture.  (but he wouldn't call himself a Baptist Brider).   Our family has studied it out and knows what it believes on the succession issue, but we still struggle with the idea that IF you  get re-baptized, are you forsaking and denying the validity of the preceding baptism as "false"?  When you get baptized are you "identifying" with every single belief of that baptizing pastor/church that is baptizing you--even any beliefs you might be unaware of?  (I'm sorry, I know this is a can of worms)  The other side we have struggled with is if it is just a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and your public proclamation of faith in Christ......if you've been immersed in good faith on your behalf, should someone have to be re-baptized say, if they came from a Bible church background to a IFB church?  (This was the case with two of my sons previously)  It seems to me that it should be God who validates baptism, not the man or institution who is doing the baptizing, but I'm seriously at a loss for Scripture so far to be solid about what I believe on this.  I have one son who has been re-baptized, and one who has not.  This doctrine being hammered down on my teenager (who previously thought he was "right" before the Lord and demonstrated well the fact he was saved) has nearly destroyed him spiritually. 

[Bro K]

NOW back to the OP: 

How Many Times Must I Be Baptized?

As Evangelist Maze Jackson would say: Till the tadpoles knows your social security number!   I know it's easy to get side tracked and go into a completely different direction; but it would help immensely  if a new Thread is started.