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Bakershalfdozen

Speaking In Tongues - What Does The Bible Say About Them?

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[quote="kevinmiller"][quote]which of course they did along with ALL other sign gifts as many verses clearly demonstrate for those willing to rightly divide[/quote]
I'll answer the rest of your post later(I'm cleaning my apartment, at the moment) but I wanted to throw this question in there.

What are these "many" elusive verses that you are referring to? I don't remember you posting any that we could "rightly divide" to mean that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer existent. :huh:[/quote]

Good morning Bro Kevin (or is it evening there?) I found Korea beautiful whilst there in Kunsan in the mid 80's. Let me clarify however that I didn't say that the 'gifts of the spirit' no longer exist, but rather, I say it is quite evident that the particular gifts which were given as sign gifts (i.e. Healing, Miracles, Prophesying and Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues) have ceased. The gifts for edification (which I say are just as wondrous and divine) are still being given at the point of salvation (in adults) and at point in spiritual maturity in youths.

As for a few verses which cast some question upon the continuation of the Holy Spirit's empowering folk in the church with the gift of healing (or tongues in my view) - here are just a few off the top of my head.

II Cor 12:12 Paul points out that the 'signs of an Apostle' {never mind the implications of the word apostle} [b][u]WERE [as in not still being now] [/u][/b]wrought among you... He's careful to say those signs 'were' once (past tense) wrought among you.

Philippians 2:27 Where not a soul has the gift of healing in the church to help out bro Epaphroditus. Noting of course that Paul {who previously was endued with 'power from on high' to raise the dead} was unable to heal the sick here.

And again at the end of Paul's ministry, after he's given much guidance on how to pray over sick folk (and not said a word about getting one of the folks with the gift of Healing involved) is himself now unable to heal any longer II Tim 4:20 as evidenced by his leaving of Trophimus sick at Miletum.

Again in James 5 where there isn't a word mentioned about anyone with the gift of healing but rather, a totally different method of prayer & laying on of the preacher's elder's hands and fervent prayer!

Again in Paul's instruction to Timothy to use wine for his health problems! Wine? come on man....why not just heal him? Or better yet, tell him to go get one of those supposed still for today got the gifts of the Spirit "healers" to edify the body by healing one of its members? Why medicinal instructions instead?

No more pillars of fire.... the just shall live by faith....no sign shall be given it except that of the prophet Jonah.... the evidence of things NOT SEEN (like someone getting a new leg instantly to replace the one they just lost in a fall)(like someone being raised from the dead when the person with the gift of Healing opens their casket).

The apostles went about openly performing miracles, healing, and prophesying - calling upon everyone to see it (Acts 3:1-19) and using it as a platform to prove openly that Jesus Christ is the son of God! They hid it not, restricted it not to the confines of the church walls, nor justified why they couldn't use this power of God at will. You find no Apostle saying anywhere.....well...uhh....I can't help you cause you ain't got no faith err....uhh...... I notice also that there aint a word mentioned about having faith to be healed in this fellow's case. They just healed him....cause they had the power to do so and to do plainly, publicly, openly, in front of Wal-mart if you will and then when the crowd is ready for somebody to explain it, they point to Jesus!

But thats dumb old redneck country preacher talk you say? Well....maybe so I guess....

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:goodpost: PastorHarrison!

The apostles went about openly performing miracles, healing, and prophesying - calling upon everyone
to see it (Acts 3:1-19) and using it as a platform to prove openly that Jesus Christ is the son of God! They hid it not, restricted it not to the confines of the church walls, nor justified why they couldn't use this power of God at will. You find no Apostle saying anywhere.....well...uhh....I can't help you cause you ain't got no faith err....uhh...... I notice also that there aint a word mentioned about having faith to be healed in this fellow's case. They just healed him....cause they had the power to do so and to do plainly, publicly, openly, in front of Wal-mart if you will and then when the crowd is ready for somebody to explain it, they point to Jesus!

But thats dumb old redneck country preacher talk you say? Well....maybe so I guess....


Not where I sit, it isn't. The more simple---the better. God bless.

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Sorry brothers - I don't want you angry with me over your pet gift, but in the end you've still got Jewish signs, performed without ONE exception in the presence of Jews,


You know, I agree with you more than I disagree, but I am not sure why you keep saying the signs were ONLY for the Jews? Besides Jonah, who I already mentioned, lets look at this passage:


"Acts 28:1-10 And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god. In the same quarters were possessions of the chief man of the island, whose name was Publius; who received us, and lodged us three days courteously. And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed: Who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary."

These were not Jews. Obviously Christ, through Paul, was working signs among them at that point though...

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I know I am NOT a brother...Seth; however, I know that the signs weren't JUST for the Jews. :Green

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Hey Brother Seth! Good comments and the most compelling observations I've thus far seen.... but I call to your pondering this thought....

1. Jonah performed el-zero signs in Nineveh bro. He went there preaching.... not zip else. Also (a). Jonah aint a gentile, he's a Jew, so you still have a Jew involved. (B). Jonah performs not a single sign to convince the gentile ninevites of anything. Lastly ©. Jonah's belly of the whale trip was made in solitude with not one ninevite present to see anything. The only sign Jonah is involved with will be used by Christ to illustrate that 1. Unless some folk see signs they wont believe and 2. No sign is gone be given them except that of Jonas.... 3 days in the grave!
*The ninevites got some good preaching....but no miracles. Shame it didn't help cause they got destroyed later.

2. Acts 28 -- Good points! but go back and read the whole account from ch 25 onward.... Paul is a prisoner at this point and ever being defamed in court by Jews (who according to law had to be present) and ends up in jail with a bunch of Jews (and gentiles) some of whom are bound for "Caesar's judgment Seat" (25:10-15) and by the time they get into the shipwreck of ch 28 there are more than 260 passengers on-board (I dare say the reading conveys that Paul and Luke aint the only Jews present on thet thar island). What have ya got there? I say you've got a shipload of folk, certainly some unsaved Jews among them if not ALL of them, who get to see some signs performed by a Jew (only) and I figure, some get saved by seeing said signs. Are there a whole load of gentiles present? Yes sir! Does Paul use his gifts as an apostle to heal & help some of'em? Yep! Do some of those savages and maybe some of the unbelieving Jews there with him get saved as a result of seeing the signs and believing the gospel? Who knows the Bible never says so, anymore than it says how many of them thar shipmates was Jews.....but you've still got Jewish signs, performed by a Jew, in the presence of another Jew (Luke is there vs 10 "us") if not over 200 hundred other Jews.

See I dont say gentiles never experience being in the presence of some Jewish signs.....nor benefit from such proximity. I say the "sign" gifts are Jewish and the Jews require signs. I get said belief from 1 Cor 14:22, 1:22, Ex 4:1-10 and from the manifest irrefutable fact that no tongue, miracle or prophecy by miraculous gifting EVER is performed outside the presence of a Jew. I say the signs are exclusively to prove something to the Jews.... See Peter himself points to Joel in explaining pentecost, and in Joel there ain't a gentile in the whole chapter (2) where this is referenced....its about God trying to reach his people by miraculious proofs..... That dont mean I think us gentiles are 2nd class, salvation is salvation! (Rom 3:1-2) says there is some advantage to being a Jew ... and the Bible is full of that truth. Are we not just as saved in the end you ask? Quite certainly we are amen! But that salvation was to the Jew first.... you see? The Jew first....they get special treatment and privalege. We ought be willing to love them the more for their role and place in God's plan.

Redneck version of course.....

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Romans 12:6

The Gift of Mercy



These gifts are the drive that motivates us in our ministry whereby we are able to carry out the ministry that God has given us with less wear and tear on us physically, emotionally and spiritually; and to have more fruitfulness and productiveness. Prophecy, the first; mercy the last. I wonder if that was on accident? I don?t think so. Someone has said the person with the gift of mercy must be tough on one hand but very tender on the other. The person with the gift of mercy is the joy of the body. (Now we discuss briefly the other 6 gifts mentioning them and a little definition.) Now we come to talk about the gift of Mercy. Now of all the people who could be misunderstood I suppose this gift would be as misunderstood as all. The body of Christ, The family, and every organization needs to have the gift of Mercy in it. They just sort of equalize and balance things that one of the other gifts would miss.



Let me say this to husbands and wives, as well as children and that is, God places within our environment, our family, our church and organization, those strengths to some because someone else may be weak in that area. So I believe God when God brings people together He will balance it off so that when one is weak the other is strong in that gift.



If you are married to a person with this gift you can hurt them very easily.



Mercy ? the Strengths



1. An ability to fell an atmosphere of joy or distress in an individual or group.

The person with the gift of Mercy, God has granted them a level of sensitivity;

Whereby they can walk into a group, into a family, or a large group and they can discern the feeling level of where these people are. A person with the gift of Mercy can sit down with someone else and it doesn?t take them long to discern where this person is emotionally. They can sense if there is a joy or sadness. They may be able to cover it up to everybody else; but mercy can feel it out. The person with this gift often operates on a feeling level.



2. A tendency to be attracted to and understand people who are having mental and

Emotional distress. For example a person with the gift of service may see a person in need and what they see is the physical problem. The person with the gift of mercy looks past physical needs and is able to not only sense there is a physical need but they are hurting on the inside. Now not only that, but a tendency to be attracted to that person, not just discern it but move in their direction. You will find people who will attract people who have that kind of problem. People like that it seems people gravitate to them because they know the person who this gift is willing to vicariously suffer with the. Now, to vicariously suffer means that the person with the gift of mercy is able to project themselves into the other person?s problem, get under the emotion with them, feel what they feel, hurt like they hurt and at the same time rejoice in the midst of it. The person with the gift of mercy is the joy. This is God?s gift of joy and cheerfulness to the body of Christ. How is he to exercise his Gift?

With cheerfulness.



3. A desire to remove hurts and bring healing to others rather then to look for the

Benefit of the hurts. Now listen to this conversation between exhortation and mercy. Exhortation says, let them hurt! Because they can see through the hurting how that God can bring that person around. Exhortation says, wait a minute mercy---hold it, don?t move in and relieve the pain yet, let them hurt! The gift of mercy says, let them hurt? Why? Exhortation says, the hurt is a vital part of what God is doing. Mercy says, oh, I can?t afford to see them hurt, look at them. Very often mercy and exhortation will clash if mercy does not understand the principle of hurting and that the hurt will bring them through stronger. Everyone with the gift of mercy must remember that hurting is part of the process of bringing a person to the end of himself so they will have to call out in desperation?My God, my God, I surrender. Mercy doesn?t want them to get to that point. When a person with this gift understands how God works he can let them hurt but oh it is still so difficult. God made them very loving and sensitive.



4. A greater concern for mental distress than physical distress of others. For

Example, the gift of service says, let?s correct that in a hurry. While organization says, let?s organize and get it all together. But mercy could care less about all the physical things they are concerned about the mental and emotional things, and mending all the inner hurts. The inner healing needs to take place, the inner frustrations, the inner fears, the inner blindness and desperation. The prophet will reach out with words while the person with mercy will reach out with genuine love and caring.





5. A sensitivity to words and actions that will hurt others. If you are around a

Person who has a gift of mercy and you say something critical or harsh about somebody everything in mercy flies up, they are so sensitive that they can hurt immediately when somebody says something critical of somebody else. (especially someone they care about)! They live with this sensitivity radar projecting themselves in other people?s positions so they feel the hurt. Now if they walking in the flesh they will respond harshly and set you in your place.



6. A tendency to react harshly when intimate friends are rejected. Now a person

With the gift of mercy is naturally very loyal and when they see or hear of one of their friends being rejected that?s very difficult for them. They generally respond harshly, because of their strong loyalty and faithfulness to that person. When that person is rejected, here is what they might do. When they see one of their friends being rejected they can instantly project themselves in that person?s situation. They can take the sensitivity of rejection and respond faster than a speeding bullet, because they are sensitive people. God has placed the person with the gift of Mercy in the church to keep the rest of us on level and balance by our response and reactions in what we would like to say sometimes. The person with this gift is very sensitive when their friends are rejected.



7. An ability to sense genuine love (watch this especially if you live with one) a

Greater vulnerability. They can detect when love is not sincere and only out of the mouth and the lips; when it is plastic and not real. This person can spot it in a second. They can sense genuine love and a greater vulnerability to deeper and more frequent hurts from the lack of love. Because they are sensitive, and because they can project themselves into that kind of situation they are more vulnerable to these deeper and frequent hurts from the lack of love. Now you take a person who has the gift of mercy, they can be hurt more easily than these other gifts. Prophesy doesn?t fret about it while mercy is injured and grieved in their heart. When we are strong in one area we can become more gullible in others. The person with the gift of mercy, and is you are married to one, needs to sense your projective care. You see the person with the gift of mercy is giving and giving of themselves so they are more vulnerable to deeper hurts; because they are sensitive to others needs that they become more easily hurt. They live on a sensitivity of others needs. If you are living with this mercy person and they sense a lack of love they are deeply hurt. Because God has given them this sensitivity that they can care for others. If you are living with a mercy child be very, very, careful, because you can hurt them and never understand it. What may seem natural to one person could seem disastrous to this mercy person.



8. A need for deep friendship in which there is mutual commitments. Now

Naturally a person who is sensitive and able to feel hurt, a person who needs love and needs acceptance also needs a sense of commitment. I believe if we really understood the gifts, understood each other, and understood ourselves that there would be far less people living together or being divorced. God made marriage to be a commitment and the mercy gift understands commitment. They need commitment. The mercy needs commitment because they give of themselves so deeply and they get grieved if they don?t receive the same degree of commitment.



9. A need to measure acceptance by physical closeness and quality time together.

You want to grieve the gift of mercy?you go to the breakfast table after she has prepared your breakfast and you sit there and read the newspaper or you watch tv or something while the mercy child is trying to talk to you and you have your mind on something else, this poor mercy is grieved and decay comes into that relationship. Physical closeness and quality time together. You say why that? Watch. Every single of one us have responsibilities or activities that drain us. Now you can be drained physically from digging a ditch or emotionally from counseling or listening to people. Whatever all of us at times are drained, and you see the more we are drained in an emotional and spiritual level the more we need to have our cups filled. Perhaps you come home drained physically. Yes, go to bed and get a good nights rest and you will feel refreshed. But if a person is continuously being drained emotionally because of a relationship they need to have their cup refilled so that a person with a gift of mercy needs closeness, intimacy and genuine expressions of love. That?s why if a person is married to one it is important that they have quality time and a sense of physical closeness and intimacy or they suffer on a deeper level than most of us can imagine.



10. An enjoyment and unity with those who are sensitive to the needs of others.

People with the gift of mercy are not attracted to the bunch of critics, folks who are negative, tearing this and that down. The person with the gift of mercy may be your friend but they do not like it when you criticize others because they have projected themselves in the person?s life.



11. A tendency to avoid firmness until he sees how it will bring benefit and

Eliminate greater hurt. A person with this gift, because they want to help and because they hurt when someone else hurts, has a tendency not to express firmness in a given situation which may demand firmness. That is unless they see God working in it and realize that God is allowing them to hurt to bring them through. Now if God is in the process of working on this fella here, and God has the pressure on him, and God is trying to do something and mercy comes rushing in, who gets the pressure? Mercy gets the pressure. God doesn?t want mercy in there until he has accomplished what He wants to accomplish. Then that person may need mercy. The mercy gift needs to be sensitive to what God is doing. Now let me say something to you dear wives. When your husband is hurting and you know God is really working on him, I mean God is wiping him up good, he is in the valley, he is bleeding and you as a loving wife says, Oh I can?t stand to see him suffer! If you interfere you are prolonging what God wants to do in his life. Sometimes the most difficult thing in the world is to back off and let somebody hurt. But don?t get in God?s way. Something for husbands and children: Let them hurt. The reason you are where you are is because somebody let you hurt. Mercy wants to stop the hurt but God is working. Don?t get in God?s way, especially children. It is difficult for mercy to stand and even watch God work.



12. A closing of their spirit to those who are insincere or insensitive. When a

person is detected by mercy as being insincere mercy is willing to get in and hurt with a person who is hurting. Mercy when walking in the Spirit is willing to risk hurt from others to help a person who is hurting. When mercy sees insincerity in service, insincerity in love, insincerity in speech, insincerity in actions you know what mercy does? It closes a curtain on that person, because can?t stand hypocrisy, lying or deceit. God made them very sensitive.











Mercy?s Misunderstandings



1. The sensitivity to the spirit and feelings of others may cause some to feel that the person with this gift is guided by emotions rather than logic. Because this person is a caring, loving, giving, compassionate person, it may appear to others that mercy is operating on emotions. Sometimes this is true, but often times they are misunderstood. They are motivated, they are driven by getting on the inside of the person with a need and helping them.



2. An avoidance of firmness may appear to be weakness and indecision. The prophet, the teacher, and the exhorter may be able to move quickly and be firm, but the tendency of the person with mercy is not to express firmness but tenderness and love. So the prophet, teacher, and exhorter rush in with rebuke; but mercy rushes in to calm, soothe, and heal. Very sensitive touch. The touch of mercy is needed. Everybody needs to have the feeling that God can wrap them in His arms and love them. Mercy brings this.
3. The sensitivity to words and actions which cause hurts may appear that they are taking up offenses for another. The gift of mercy if out of the Spirit can for example: You have a person with the gift of mercy and they hear of somebody else being criticized. I mean they flare up and tell you that you are dead wrong and you don?t have the facts so shame, shame, shame on you. By the time old mercy gets through with you, you feel like a pile of powder. Because their motivation is right but sometimes they go about it wrongly. They are saying: don?t criticize ? you don?t know how they feel, you don?t understand, you don?t? have a right to say that. So prophets, exhorters, and teachers clash because mercy vicariously suffers with the person.
4. The ability to detect insincere motives may cause some to feel he is hard to get to know. When a person has the gift of mercy, they detect insincerity. What do they do? They don?t say; I don?t like you, they just sort of back off. The person with mercy is not hard to get along with ? they are the joy in the church. The gift of cheerfulness and joy sometimes it appears this way. If you a parent, son, or daughter listen to this one very carefully.
5. The attraction and understanding of those in distress may be misunderstood by those of the opposite sex. Here is an example. Let?s say here is a fella who gets hooked on drugs and here comes along a fine young Christian gal who has mercy. She meets him and they begin to share. He shares how he is hurting on the inside. He feels rejected, lonely, feels frustrated, hopeless, desolate, so desperate, does not know which way to turn, nobody cares and here comes sweet loving Miss Mercy. This Christian gal knows Jesus is the answer. Christ can deliver him. Now watch:



A. First of all, I would be happy to help you out of that , mercy reaches down and because of the tenderness and help she really does want to help. So mercy reaches and does everything she can do and little by little she reaches the point where she can no longer help him but is trapped by some sin or another.

B. Say for example; a man meets a young lady and he feels she is hurting and he reaches out. Say I want to help you and what happens because of his mercy and understanding she begins to lean on him. Before long, she leans too much and they are involved in something neither one intended to be involved in. If you have mercy, be careful that you are not misunderstood by other people. Jesus is the answer to everything, so keep your eyes on Him.



HOW TO RESPOND IN THE SPIRIT



1. Attentiveness ? Very Attentive



2. Sensitivity ? Radar Out!



3. Fairness



4. Compassion ?

Capacity to feel & suffer



5. Gentleness ? Lovingly



6. Submissive



7. Meekness ? Humility








































RESPONDING IN THE FLESH



Unconcerned ? Care less, soft heart



Careless ? Cold heart



Partial ? Choosing sides



Indifference





Harshness



Rudeness ? Very



Anger - Explode

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I am enjoying your comments though they differ with the Bible in my estimation' date=' but [b']I believe it is better to lose a good fight than to win a bad one.

Well I agree with that!

[offtopic]dwayner79 wrote:No, but apparently you have.
That is a miss quote, I think Kevin said that[/offtopic]

Perhaps the reason that each list is so different, is because in each case Paul was not trying to say the list was exhaustive, but instead only talk through the ones he was dealing with for that church.


I am curious why you highlighted that blue. I can only assume you mean to imply something specifically, so I will address it, and if you want to clarify, please do. Each epistle written was written to a specific church with specific problems. This is called occasional (or situational) writing. Any far hermeneutic must take this into account. So the point Paul is making to the Corinthian church is different from the one he is making to the Roman church, or the church in Ephesus. He is addressing specific issues, and therefor deals with specific topics. It, therefore, makes sense that the list differ as he is talking to each church individually.

PastorHarrison, I truly wish I had more time. Your list of proof-texts do not make sense from my perspective. The apparent silence of the epistles is not enough reason to assume that something is done away with. Again with situational literature, each one does not have to address every topic. The same argument could be made about the laying on of hands by the elders. Why did Paul recommend wine with the elder's prayers were available. Does James' call also no longer apply because Paul recommended wine? Its circular reasoning, IMO.

I also want to note that the sign gifts were not always available even before scripture was complete. The Apostles struggled with the use of casting out demons, etc. But those types of 'sign gifts' if you want to call them that are not what is being addressed by Paul. Its a leap to try to push the Apostolic functions into those of the churches being addressed in these letters. But there is more. We know tongues will cease and we know prophecy will cease. The Scripture explicitly states that is will "when the perfect comes." So either there is no more tongues because scripture is complete, or they are still in function because the perfect is something else. Follow me because I am driving toward something. Was scripture complete when James was written? Was it when Philippians was written? How about Timothy? Obviously not. So if you are saying that those gifts had ceased by the time those books were written, then by very definition, "the perfect" cannot mean "the Bible". Do you see the ramifications of that? All Biblical evidence that tongues had ceased is no longer capable of backing up the claim that 'the perfect' = ' the Bible'. If you showed some historical evidence that after Revelation was written, or even after the canon was complete then at that point the church stopped seeing tongues, then there might be something there. But that is not the claim.

So if 'the perfect' is not 'the Bible' then we have a theological question, what is it? I'm open to entertaining ideas, but likely the return of Christ is the reference. So from a completely theological POV, those gifts are available for the Holy Spirit's use... in fact we KNOW that at some point they have or will cease, but we also know that they will be around until the 'perfect' comes. And since we have no evidence that the 'perfect' is the Bible, why assume it is?

IMO, those gifts are still available. They are rarely given. They are often manufactured. I think that we make a bigger deal out of them then we need to simply because of how they are incorrectly attempted. But the Spirit still guides, he still gives messages of encouragement and rebuke. He still provides the extraordinary use of signs to bring in the lost (though I honestly believe He does so more in other cultures because in the west we are 1. so divided over the issue, and 2. we refuse to surround ourselves with lost people).


Edit to add: This is one of the best threads in recent OLB history IMHO. This topic is usually quickly reduced to stereotyping and vitriol. Instead we are having a level headed Biblical discussion. I appreciate it, and I imagine God does as well.

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God has given us 7 "spiritual gifts" and...yes, they are ALL contained in the scripture. I recommended a book to Kevin (that contains a test.) It is amazing when Christians take that test what they will find out about their individual gifts. Everyone, has at lest one STRONG "spiritual gift"!! I am interested to see what yours is. :cool With your baby coming, and all, it is something that is worth reading, studying, and praying about. Who knows?

I have little regard for spiritual gift tests. I often find that they take a person's inner personality and try to force that onto the meaning of Spiritual gifts. I don't think that is accurate. In other words, if a person is "gifted" naturally in administration, does that mean they have a spiritual gift of administration? Do they supernaturally acquire that gift after salvation? Most of the time that is simply not the case. Natural gifting is different then "spiritual gifts." Now even I used the Ephesians 4 passage in this discussion, where God appoints some to be pastors and teachers, etc. I think those are more ministries then gifts. I'm circling, so let me define those:

A gift is when the Holy Spirit gives you, on an occasion, a specific ability that you do not normally have.
A ministry is when you have and use that gifting regularly.

A few examples:
There is a sweet lady I know who loves to have people over. If she took a Spiritual gift test, it would likely tell her she has the gift of hospitality. She doesn't. She has a ministry that uses her hospitable nature. Now my wonderful wife is a bit of a recluse. Every now and then, she will have a strong desire to have someone over. This is a spiritual gift, because it goes against who she normally is.

The one time I clearly was challenged to share something at church, that goes against how I normally function. That is a gifting. My pastor however has the ministry of preaching.

So I think Spiritual gift inventories would be better marketed as ministry test.


The other reason I do not really care for them is they have a tendency to encourage us to minister where we are comfortable. They can reinforce the places where we are naturally gifted, and we might avoid the places God is trying to grow us because that is "not where we are gifted."

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How about this.... I respect your right to hold such an opinion thats inconsistent with FIBC doctrine brothers. I don't think, personally, that the charismatic bla bla stuff is a house built on the rock, but its your house, not mine. I really didn't set out to convince any of the nay sayers that clinging to the present day 'tongues, healings and signs' movement is a theological boo boo [although I believe it to be]. What I really wanted to do was provide the readers here, be they young or unstudied, some solid footing from a Baptist perspective on tongues etc...

The simple reality is that no one here or elsewhere can set forth a single verse of Bible to demonstrate that the signs (be it tongues, healing or miracles) as the scripture calls them, has ever once taken place in accordance with the context of Acts or I Cor or Exodus 4 outside the presence of the Jews for whom they're intended (1 Cor 1:22).

My intent brethren is balance for the young readers who may have otherwise in the thread been led in error to think a church full of country folk in Tennessee in 2008 actually has folk in it with the gift of instantanious healing, instantanious miracles, or command over languages not previously known to them..... which is of course quite absurd [in my opinion, based on my Bible].

I mean none of you fine brethren any offense by the discussion.....rather I intend only to counter what I honestly believe to be false doctrine. Surely, if I came in here blathering that one could lose salvation, those of you who know the Bible would feel it warranted to protect the unlearned by flatly challenging my statement? Yes of course.

So.... as someone noted - good discussion.

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Well friend, our intent is the same then. To show our respective positions in a logical and clear means.

I also want to note that the Charismatic bla bla stuff is not at all what I am talking about. One can believe that those gifts are available for the Holy Spirit to use as He sees fit without agreeing that the modern Charismatic (or Charismaniac) version is right.

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Offtopic: dwayner79 wrote:No, but apparently you have.
That is a miss quote, I think Kevin said that


Hi dwayner. Yep, it was. Sorry. I don't know how that happened. LOL.

:hijack: How do you do the "Off Topic" in blue?

I am curious why you highlighted that blue. I can only assume you mean to imply something specifically' date=' so I will address it, and if you want to clarify, please do.[/quote']

I think this is referring to me^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I wasn't trying to "imply" anything or "something specifically"---I was using the fancy system on OLB, and attempting to figure it out, is all. :frog



Actually, the "spiritual gift inventories" that contain the 7 gifts...are incredible! :smile You would be surprised at how a person's gifts almost level out the same. Mine did---and, so have many other believers that I know. That is the beauty of them. Christians have many strong gifts---and this "test" or these "spiritual gift inventories" doesn't limit a believer to just one gift at all. Most times----7. :thumb One gift will be slightly higher than the rest, but that doesn't limit God to use our other gifts and talents---to just that one gift. It really is amazing. :smile

BTW, I say "test" b/c I was a teacher---as you know. :-)

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How about this.... I respect your right to hold such an opinion thats inconsistent with FIBC doctrine brothers.

And we respect your right to hold to an opinion that's inconsistent with Bible doctrine. :lol :wink

I don't think, personally, that the charismatic bla bla stuff is a house built on the rock, but its your house, not mine. I really didn't set out to convince any of the nay sayers that clinging to the present day 'tongues, healings and signs' movement is a theological boo boo [although I believe it to be].

Neither Dwayne or I have been referring to the charismatic movement. In fact, if you read our posts, we have made a great distinction between true Biblical gifts and misused or faked ones.

What I really wanted to do was provide the readers here, be they young or unstudied, some solid footing from a Baptist perspective on tongues etc...

Why do you want to give us a Baptist perspective? I understand having the name Baptist as a way to identify what you believe. I don't choose to hold that name but we've been there done that. Still, I think when it comes to teaching doctrine, we should be saying, "this is Bible doctrine," not "this is Baptist doctrine." That really demeans the Holy Word of God to man-made labels and subjects Bible doctrine to the presupposed opinions of a denomination. Baptists detest being named as a denomination and IFB's are not in the sense that they are not associated. But the very fact that "Baptist" doctrine is constantly pushed in lieu of simply Bible doctrine pushes you into denominationalism.

The simple reality is that no one here or elsewhere can set forth a single verse of Bible to demonstrate that the signs (be it tongues, healing or miracles) as the scripture calls them, has ever once taken place in accordance with the context of Acts or I Cor or Exodus 4 outside the presence of the Jews for whom they're intended (1 Cor 1:22).

You have ignored all of the verses that have been posted which makes me astounded that you can tell us that we haven't set forth a verse to show that tongues, healing and miracles were done in the presence of non-Jews(which they were) when you have yet to post a single verse to indicate that they are solely for the Jews or that they have ceased.

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" You mention this verse and yet it has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The only way that I can understand such a far-fetched relation is that a person would have to learn it in seminary or from presupposed denominational pet beliefs. I've already confronted the fact that tongues was the one and only gift that was referred to as a "sign." But to go so far as to say that the Jews require a sign and then tie that to the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit(note the word "gifts," which is the actual word used, not signs) 11 chapters later is absurd.

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Edit to add: This is one of the best threads in recent OLB history IMHO. This topic is usually quickly reduced to stereotyping and vitriol. Instead we are having a level headed Biblical discussion. I appreciate it' date=' and I imagine God does as well.[/quote']

I agree! I had all but given up on seeing this sort of discussion around here anymore. I'm glad I stumbled in this "room" tonight. I ave nothing to add to the discussion other than to thank you all for an interesting read.

[offtopic]Molly - you can make the blue off-topic words by typing your words and then highlighing them and clicking on the "offtopic" button above. Make sense?[/offtopic]

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[quote]Incorrect position Brother Kevin, Fundamental Baptist Doctrine IS Bible doctrine [/quote]
Okay, I won't beat this horse. :wink

[quote]Incorrect, for the present day Charismatic movement sets forth what you believe - that the sign gifts are for the church today. Not all those brothers are striving to counterfeit these Jewish signs, some - most I'd think, join you in the erronious thinking that what they believe is right, and what they're doing is Biblical. Just as did those Corinthians until Paul wrote and said "NO...you've got it all wrong and I don't want ya to be ignorant". You propose to segregate what you believe from what the Charismatics teach .... which is not possible. Either you do hold charismatic doctrine - or you don't. If you hold the signs are still active, then you do not hold rightly divided Bible doctrine which means you do not hold FIBC doctrine - for the two are the same.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but they aren't sign gifts, they are Holy Spirit gifts. At least, that's what the Bible says. Actually, I don't hold to charismatic doctrine. lol What Dwayne and I believe is very far from charismatic doctrine, very very far. The problem with IFB doctrine = Bible doctrine belief is that it takes presupposed positions and uses the Bible to back them up, rather than using the Bible to form positions.

[quote]I like to see churches say non-denominational - it warns the folk who know their Bible to keep driving till they find an FIBC.[/quote]
Just don't tell the NT believers about this. They might be in trouble since they were non-denominational non-Baptists. lol

[quote]Uhh...what verse would that be? The few verses set forth and I say few because I don't recall one that answers my challenge,
Again I ask - give just ONE verse demonstrating a non-Jew performing a SIGN GIFT {tongue or Miracle} JUST ONE TIME outside the presence of other JEWS. You guys want to prove your doctrine? There is your chance - Book and Verse fellas. So far you've referenced verses, but non of which have beans to do with your premise.[/quote]
Actually, there is one thing that is needed before we can move into signs being performed before non-Jews. First, you must present a verse that shows that anything outside of tongues listed in 1 Corinthians 12 is a sign gift. They aren't. Only tongues was mentioned as a sign. ONLY tongues.

[quote]I being to suspect brother Kevin, that you're a charismatic enjoying a bit of good debate with the stodgy old Baptist on an fundamental Baptist site. Which is quite all right with me, I used to do the same thing at the charismatic sites years ago...always fun to mess with their heads and point out the verses that show how silly their doctrine is.[/quote]
ROFL....
Check out my profile, Pastor H, or my topic that I started in the lounge. I just topped 10,000 posts. I'm not a new guy who just came rolling in to debate with an old "stodgy" Baptist. :lol
No, I'm not charismatic, just a Bible-believing Christian. :thumb

[quote]If however you're a "Bapti-costal" as the term is coming into existence, I challenge you to consider the fact that you have NOT experienced a manifestation of tongues consistent with that of Scripture. You have NOT performed a single miracle wherein God's power in your hand was manifest (stop a flood etc) nor consistently professed the future events in God's plan previously not revealed to the church. Nor done so consistently as evidence that the ability is a gift in your hand. Rather, you are here on a website trying to argue it still happens....though NOT one VERSE supports it, and not one man can demonstrate it nor has in 1800 yrs.[/quote]
No, I'm not Bapti-costal either. hehe I'm non-denominational. I went to a Baptist church in America and I go to a great Presbyterian church here in Korea. There were/are things that I disagree with both churches. I don't think that anyone who studies their Bible with an independent mind could ever come to the place where they totally agreed with everything their church taught.

No, I've never spoken in tongues. No, I've never performed a miracle. No, I've never prophesied. Not everyone has those gifts and not all the time. I have a close friend who says that she has prayed in tongues before and whether it is true or not is between her and God, it's none of my business. However, it was one time and hasn't happened since then.

Not a verse supports it?? Yikes. What happened to 1 Corinthians 12? lol
Actually, it has and does happen. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it hasn't occurred, and I'm not referring to what goes on in charismatic circles. But hey...you aren't seeking a sign, are you? :wink

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Thanks, Katie...I really appreciate your help. :smile God bless you waaay over there in China!!

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Okay, let me whack it one.

There is no such thing as "Fundamental Baptist Doctrine". One can cross this nation and set foot in only Fundamental Baptist churches and come up with several differing views on various aspects of doctrine.

Kevin is correct in that we should hold to Bible and make sure we give the Word of God full credit as being the only true source of sound doctrine.

True enough, some Fundamenatl Baptist churches do hold to solid doctrine, but that's still Bible doctrine and the fact that other Fundamental Baptist churches hold to differing doctrine makes it impossible to claim there is any one, solid Fundamental Baptist doctrine.

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If however you're a "Bapti-costal" as the term is coming into existence, I challenge you to consider the fact that you have NOT experienced a manifestation of tongues consistent with that of Scripture. You have NOT performed a single miracle wherein God's power in your hand was manifest (stop a flood etc) nor consistently professed the future events in God's plan previously not revealed to the church. Nor done so consistently as evidence that the ability is a gift in your hand. Rather, you are here on a website trying to argue it still happens....though NOT one VERSE supports it, and not one man can demonstrate it nor has in 1800 yrs.

Your turn :cool

Some how the nesting in you post got messed up, but I want to just comment on this one.

I think it rather arrogant sounding (i honestly am not judging your motives, just mentioning the way it "sounds") for you to make those types of statements. I have been in Church where people were healed. I have seen Prophetic words. I have heard stories (never experienced myself) of tongues as defined in scripture. I can't speak for Kevin, but you are making that claim because you think they are ceased. Our experiences should never dictate our theology. Even if Kevin has never experienced such acts, that would not negate their existance. It is a theological question, not an experiential one.

I am a little disappointed (or perhaps I missed it) that you did not care to comment on my rebuttal to scripture being used to say that the Bible is the perfect. By your silence are you ceeding the point that while the Bible was being written tongues still existed, and therefore the supposed silence of the authors is not relevant?

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Some how the nesting in you post got messed up, but I want to just comment on this one.

I think it rather arrogant sounding (i honestly am not judging your motives, just mentioning the way it "sounds") for you to make those types of statements. I have been in Church where people were healed. I have seen Prophetic words. I have heard stories (never experienced myself) of tongues as defined in scripture. I can't speak for Kevin, but you are making that claim because you think they are ceased. Our experiences should never dictate our theology. Even if Kevin has never experienced such acts, that would not negate their existence. It is a theological question, not an experiential one.

I am a little disappointed (or perhaps I missed it) that you did not care to comment on my rebuttal to scripture being used to say that the Bible is the perfect. By your silence are you ceding the point that while the Bible was being written tongues still existed, and therefore the supposed silence of the authors is not relevant?

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Uhh...what verse would that be? The few verses set forth and I say few because I don't recall one that answers my challenge,
Again I ask - give just ONE verse demonstrating a non-Jew performing a SIGN GIFT {tongue or Miracle} JUST ONE TIME outside the presence of other JEWS. You guys want to prove your doctrine? There is your chance - Book and Verse fellas. So far you've referenced verses, but non of which have beans to do with your premise.



That is a little bit unfair don't you think? The vast majority of biblical accounts deal with Jews in one way or another. Your restrictions would throw out the vast majority of scripture.

Still lets look at a few more cases that might not fit all your criteria, but they don't fit well with your point of view either.
Daniel 4

Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me. How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation. I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace: I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me. Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream. Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying, O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it. I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven; He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches: Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth: Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him: and let seven times pass over him. This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies. The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation: It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth. And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him; This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity. All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles feathers, and his nails like birds claws. And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.




In Daniel chapter 4 The Lord gives the king a sign for the kings OWN benefit. Not for the Jews.


Then we have this passage:

"Acts 16:23-34 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely: Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."

For who's benefit was the earthquake? It certainly wasn't for Paul and Silas(the only Jews there that we know of), they didn't even leave, the sign was certainly for the jailer, and maybe for the prisoners as well.

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2. Acts 28 -- Good points! but go back and read the whole account from ch 25 onward.... Paul is a prisoner at this point and ever being defamed in court by Jews (who according to law had to be present) and ends up in jail with a bunch of Jews (and gentiles) some of whom are bound for "Caesar's judgment Seat" (25:10-15) and by the time they get into the shipwreck of ch 28 there are more than 260 passengers on-board (I dare say the reading conveys that Paul and Luke aint the only Jews present on thet thar island). What have ya got there? I say you've got a shipload of folk, certainly some unsaved Jews among them if not ALL of them, who get to see some signs performed by a Jew (only) and I figure, some get saved by seeing said signs. Are there a whole load of gentiles present? Yes sir! Does Paul use his gifts as an apostle to heal & help some of'em? Yep! Do some of those savages and maybe some of the unbelieving Jews there with him get saved as a result of seeing the signs and believing the gospel? Who knows the Bible never says so, anymore than it says how many of them thar shipmates was Jews.....but you've still got Jewish signs, performed by a Jew, in the presence of another Jew (Luke is there vs 10 "us") if not over 200 hundred other Jews.

See I dont say gentiles never experience being in the presence of some Jewish signs.....nor benefit from such proximity.I say the "sign" gifts are Jewish and the Jews require signs. I get said belief from 1 Cor 14:22, 1:22, Ex 4:1-10 and from the manifest irrefutable fact that no tongue, miracle or prophecy by miraculous gifting EVER is performed outside the presence of a Jew. I say the signs are exclusively to prove something to the Jews.... See Peter himself points to Joel in explaining pentecost, and in Joel there ain't a gentile in the whole chapter (2) where this is referenced....its about God trying to reach his people by miraculious proofs..... That dont mean I think us gentiles are 2nd class, salvation is salvation! (Rom 3:1-2) says there is some advantage to being a Jew ... and the Bible is full of that truth. Are we not just as saved in the end you ask? Quite certainly we are amen! But that salvation was to the Jew first.... you see? The Jew first....they get special treatment and privalege. We ought be willing to love them the more for their role and place in God's plan.



The problem with the parts I bolded is that they are based purely on guess work. You already have an opinion, and you are guessing to back that opinion up. You can't prove anything with guess work.

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The Gift or Prophecy

Romans 12:6



Romans 12:6 (KJV)

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;



1. Prophecy does not always mean the ability to foretell the future. The meaning in the Bible was to speak forth the truth. The person with the gift of prophecy feels the need to express their thoughts and their attitudes verbally, especially regarding right and wrong. When a person with this gift sees right, sees wrong, their going to express it. One Biblical character with this gift was Peter.



If you recall in Acts chapter 2 (turn there), of all the people who had to speak the most it seemed that Peter did most of the talking. And, if you will recall, when the Spirit of God fell upon them at Pentecost and they began to speak with tongues or foreign languages it was Peter taking his stand.



Acts 2:14 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:



Peter could not keep it to himself, so he stood and began to preach this tremendous sermon here at Pentecost. So ask yourself this question, when you see wrong committed are you one of those people who feels compelled to express your feeling about it? You can?t keep it inside, it?s like a volcano and it must erupt when you see wrong and evil take place.



2. Secondly, this person possesses the ability to identify characteristics and motives of other people and to reject dishonesty in any form. When a person with the gift of prophecy sees any kind of hypocrisy, and kind of insincerity, any kind of manipulation the prophet will be able to identify it and must speak against it. A person with this gift is able to discern this when others may not. This person can often times walk in a room and be there a very short time and be able to pick up on what?s happening, sense people?s spirits and discern the level of what?s taking place in that group.



Romans 12:9 (KJV)

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.



In Acts 5, the church was growing, people were being saved, lives were being changed, and people had a great sense of responsibility for each other. So, they began to sell all of their goods and bring them to the Apostles and lay them at their feet. They sold their land and their possessions.



Acts 5:1 (KJV)

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,



3. The prophet is oftentimes very harsh in identifying evil and then has no regard for people?s feelings. When a person is walking in the Spirit, their motivational gift will not come across the way it will when out of the Spirit. Likewise, the person who has this gift never has the right to say well that?s my spiritual gift and it?s just the way I am and you will just have to accept me the way I am. Oh no! we don?t either, because when the Spirit of God is in control they will come across firmly, strongly, and discerning with love in it. Of course Peter is identifying an act of hypocrisy. He said, why have you lied to the Holy Spirit? Why did you keep back that which you said you had given? We did not ask you to give it, you brought your gift and then lied about it. Don?t you understand those who come to take away your body are already behind you at the door. Well friend, that?s not using much tact, but that?s dealing with the issue. The prophet is prone to do that. The prophet sees the problem and the consequences and is only interesting in correcting the problem.



Thirdly, an openness about personal faults, failures and honesty about himself. The person with this gift, because they are discerning of evil, wants evil within them or their blind spots to be revealed to them because they understand the consequences of sin. So they want their faults revealed to them. Now, again Peter is a good example in Luke 5, you will recall on this particular occasion Jesus had said to Peter, I want to fishing. He said, let?s launch out in the deep and Peter said I have been fishing all night and haven?t caught a thing. Of course under Jesus? direction they went out and you know what happened. Now when Peter saw the blind spot in this life here is what he did. He fell down before the Lord Jesus Christ amidst his brothers there, falling before Jesus



Luke 5:8 (KJV)

8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus? knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.



4. This person has a genuine concern for the reputation and program of God. This person is very discerning and if God is going to get the blame for something, that person is very sensitive to people who want to criticize the church and the work of God. So they will be very defensive for the work of God! That is, they have a concern for God?s program and God?s reputation- in fact they are even willing to suffer wrong in order to defend God?s program. Notice something that happened to Peter. For example, he and John had been used of God to heal this man at the gate and the scripture says in Acts 3:19



Acts 3:19 (KJV)

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;



5. A Tendency to be painfully direct when correcting some else. (Repeat). Of course this was also true in the life of Peter. When we think about this. Here is what the prophet is thinking. When the prophet sees something else going on in someone?s life and being able to foresee the consequences of that decision, the prophet is interested in correcting the decision, not their feelings or attitude. He is not interested in whether they will accept him. The only thing the prophet is concerned about is you get that thing corrected in your life before you really blow it. So he may come on strong and you might think he is so insensitive but his genuine motivation is protection and salvation of the person headed in the wrong direction. Now Peter, if you will recall Jesus said on one occasion to him:



6. Persuasive in defining what is right and wrong and also strong and appealing for outward change. Now when a person having the gift of prophecy comes to you in a given situation and sees something wrong going on, that person because they are gifted in discerning evil and wants to correct, to protect people involved. Often times they are very persuasive, because you see they are operating on inner conviction and a commitment to that person. They want to correct that which is wrong. So they come on persuasive and likewise they want to know where is the evidence that you have changed this wrong thing in your life. Then he often times looks for some immediate proof . Whereas the gift of mercy says, I know it will take you time, the prophet says, where is repentance? When John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness he said repent ? if you are coming to me for baptism you bring me evidence that you have genuinely repented of your sin.



7. A person with the gift of prophecy has a strong dependence upon Scripture to validate their convictions. When Peter was preaching at Pentecost it?s interesting to notice in his sermon what he did.



Acts 2:16 (KJV)

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;



He has the desire to give open evidence of loyalty and total commitment. We saw a few moments ago Peter?s loyalty to Christ when he said that nothing is going to happen to you. Peter had tremendous about of loyalty and commitment. A person with the gift of prophecy because he believes in you and loves you will sometimes stick with you when you are wrong (due to strong loyalty) though they will be trying to correct you. You will recall in the 26th chapter of Matthew Jesus was about to be betrayed and said all of you will leave me. Peter said , not the rock; I will hang in there. Then you remember that Jesus said Peter I know you mean what you way but before the cock crows three times you will have denied me. Peter said you can trust me. (This tremendous sense of loyalty. Evidence in Peter?s life). In the garden, who pulled the sword and whacked off the Roman?s ear? I believe Peter would have taken them all on if Jesus had not stopped him. Loyalty and devotion unto death. Peter out of fellowship, warming by the fire denies Christ.













Matthew 16:22 (KJV)



22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.



Matthew 16:23 (KJV)



23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



Matthew 16:24 (KJV)



24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.



8. The person with the gift of prophecy has a willingness to experience brokenness in order to see God work that brokenness in others and see them redeemed and then grow in their Spiritual experience. The reason this person is willing to be broken is to see others broken. He has the discernment to see the big picture., that God uses broken vessels more than he use those which are unbroken. God?s ultimate goal is to break us. Having been broken the prophet realizes that is God?s plan for every Christian. (John 13)



10. A tendency to make quick judgments. The prophet sometimes speaks up quickly, and is sometimes impulsive. When you read the N.T. who is usually the person who speaks first or always has to have his two cents in on the conversation. Peter, of all the Apostles. You see though the prophet is sometimes impulsive, who was it that took the first step out on the water? The prophet is always on the cutting edge of what God is doing.



The Misunderstandings:



1. This person?s sense of right and wrong may be interpreted as being very intolerant. The prophet does not see any grey It?s all black and white- no details right or wrong. This sometimes appears insensitive.



2. A strong desire to express truth may be interpreted as disinterest when listening to others viewpoint. They have a strong desire to proclaim truth. Have you ever talked to a person and you can tell they want you to hurry so they can tell you what they think? Sometimes he cuts through the details, he is not interested in details just the ultimate end. Sometimes people think he does not want to listen.



3. His or her frankness may be viewed as harshness, because they want to get to the solution. Sometimes this may seem insensitive.



4. Interest in groups may be interrupted as disinterest in individuals. Sometimes he or she cares for other people to help them before they are destroyed, that for instance a family member may feel neglected.



5. Efforts to gain results may be seen as using gimmicks. This person may use a gimmick to get to a goal. Pastor ? high attendance day ? give away something. He sees the end result.



6. Emphasis on decision may appear as neglecting or spiritual growth. The prophet may seem to be pushing people to make decisions, but not so.



7. Public boldness and strict standards may hinder intimate personal relationships. Haven?t you seen people with boldness, who would like to get to know, but you don?t want to take that chance? Everybody needs relationships and he has a hard time with close ones.


In the Spirit

1) Committed to truth

2) Obedient

3) Sincerity

4) Virtue-pure minded

5) Boldness

6) Forgiving Spirit

7) Persuasive


Out of Spirit

1) Deceptive

2) Willful rebellion

3) Hypocrisy

4) Impurity

5) Fearful-scared

6) Rejection-no concern

7) Argumentative

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The gift of prophecy meant prophecy, not a strong personality. lol
I think that "gift" could be better described as someone with a dominant choleric personality. I think those kinds of tests change our perception of what the Bible is actually saying. Instead of looking at the gift of prophecy for what it was(telling the future), we would rather interpret it through a man-made personality test with no Biblical basis whatsoever.

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