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Bakershalfdozen

Speaking In Tongues - What Does The Bible Say About Them?

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All I can say to this is that, as a former RCC---this always spooked me. I have many Christian friends who were in the RCC (like myself) and are VERY afraid of "Speaking in Tongues."

:hijack: PastorHarrison---I have heard that the movie "The Exorcist" was taken from the teachings in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Do you, or anyone else know if that is correct? I am curious on that one. :wvlf"


I am afraid this country preacher can't even spell Byzantine... :puzzled: and would have to admit.... not a clue as to the Catholic origins of the movie you mentioned.... :duh

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I am afraid this country preacher can't even spell Byzantine... :puzzled: and would have to admit.... not a clue as to the Catholic origins of the movie you mentioned.... :duh



I will do a search PastorHarrison. Ya---gotta love those "country preachers." :thumb

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"slain in the Spirit"

Isn't that the expression used by Benny Hinn and those who teach as he does? Seems to ma much of their teachings are finding their way into the modern day Baptist circles.

Also, does not to many try to use their human logic, worldly reasoning, to determine the truth of the Holy Word?



Yes---Pastor Jerry. "Slain in the Spirit" has taken off with Benny Hinn and others(in this generation)---which is sad.

It isn't a newly invented thing, though---as you are well aware. :-)


Also, does not to many try to use their human logic, worldly reasoning, to determine the truth of the Holy Word?


YES!!!

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I would like to go point by point if you don't mind. There is a lot here, and I do not want to miss anything.

I agree that scripture is our guide. I also believe that the case scripture makes of the active work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is a LOT stronger then the one that says these particular gifts are ceased. So my position is not one of putting self-action above scripture, quite the opposite. Let me make another statement that often does not sit well. The Scripture is not the only revelation made to man. Now before I'm hung, I want to qualify that statement. The Holy Spirit guides and directs us as we grow in Christ likeness. He reveals truth in scripture and he convicts of sin. Now not every sin is specifically stated in scripture, yet we rely on the Holy Spirit's conviction to "tell" or reveal to us when we have done wrong. Conviction is one way the Holy Spirit "reveals" things to us. Its one we are comfortable with. There are, detailed in scripture, other ways He reveals things to his followers. Now any "revelation" to us either by conviction or other, is always to be interpreted through scripture. Only Scripture is authoritative. If we are convicted of spending time in prayer instead of doing the laundry, lets say, well we could look to scripture and find that that conviction does not fit with scripture (Mary and Martha for example) and we can determine whether that conviction is of God or not. The same is true of say a prophetic word. Does that exhortation jive with scripture? etc.

So I agree that the only completely authoritative source is scripture, but that does not negate the work of the Holy Spirit. It only justifies a level of carefulness over it. We "test the spirits" as they say. That is always done through scripture.

I disagree that cessation is clearly presented in scripture. There is a third option here. Trying to keep it clear, I would re-word you statement to looking to clarify our experiences through the Bible. That probably doesn't do it justice. There is a two fold process here. First is clearly defining whether gifts have ceased. I do not see the scriptural support for that at all. So lets assume that the first step does NOT remove the ability of God to work through these gifts. Then, when those gifts are used, they can be tested to know if they are of God or not. I am not sure who said fullness of the spirit. I know I said fullness of life because that is what Scripture calls us to. I define that as being in the absolute closest fellowship with God that I can be in my fallen state. What that looks like is modeled in Scripture, but not very clearly defined. And those models vary. I am led to believe that it looks a little different for everyone, but we know the broad strokes (care, compassion, honesty, integrety, love, commitment, etc).
Again, filled in the spirit is a poor term, but I know what your asking. Can I be down in the dumps while I am led by the Spirit. I don't think so. Do I have all the Spirit I will ever get, YES! But to I always let Him Reign in every aspect of my life... unfortunately no.

Its interesting you say this. Last Sunday night, my pastor was giving the benediction prayer. Something happened. I had lunch with him yesterday, and we discussed it. His words went something like, "As I was praying, I realized that something was happening, like God was speaking, so I went with it. When I finished, I sat down, and realized, I have no clue what I just said." Afterwards many people came up and one person mentioned that if all they had heard tonight was his prayer that would have been worth it.

Now I am saying this type of thing is a working of the Holy Spirit. His prayer was completely biblically based. There was nothing heretical in it. It was not designed to build him up or give him joy etc., it was designed to encourage and challenge the Body of Christ. Why would we not attribute that to the work of the Holy Spirit?

I will also say that while spiritual gifts are often used corporately to encourage or rebuke the church, or testify to the lost person, that also does not negate that those gift can be used personally. Again, not because I say so, but becuase scripture talks of them being used as such. We should not fear misuse so much that we reject it completely.

Again, I agree that conviction is one way teh Holy Spirit deals with us, but why do we limit him to only that when scripture doesn't.

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I want to add... I do not speak in tongues. I never have. I believe it is possible for the Holy Spirit to work that way, but He never has with me. I have, once, had what I believe was a very clear exhortation for our church. In our church, we do everything we can to be open to that. The standing rule is that there are pastor's and elders available, and if someone has something they feel needs to be said, they tell those leaders, the leaders test it against scripture. If they agree, then either they will relay that to the church or the person can. This classifies as "prophetic" exhortation. I have never seen anyone speak in tongues at our church. I think the reason it does not happen is because Lost people don't really come to church in America. So I am not sure how much value there would be for the Spirit to work that way (that is just IMHO).

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[offtopic]We are just wonderful' date=' thanks for asking. I felt the baby kick for the first time two days ago. It was pretty special![/offtopic']



:hijack: That is so awesome dwayner!! I remembered the first time that happened to me. Yes...it is "pretty special!" :smile
God bless you and yours.

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All I can say to this is that, as a former RCC---this always spooked me. I have many Christian friends who were in the RCC (like myself) and are VERY afraid of "Speaking in Tongues."

:hijack: PastorHarrison---I have heard that the movie "The Exorcist" was taken from the teachings in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Do you, or anyone else know if that is correct? I am curious on that one. :wvlf"



The first article (of course) I have is from Wikipedia. :smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism

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Exorcismjesus-liberator-orozco27.jpg (24179 bytes)



Exorcism is the act of driving out, or warding off, demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice.

Technically, exorcism is not driving out a the Devil or demon, but it is placing the Devil or demon on oath. And, in some incidences there may be more than one demon possessing a person. "Exorcism" is derived from the Greek preposition "ek" with the verb "horkizo" which means "I cause [someone] to swear" and refers to "putting the spirit or demon on oath," or invoking a higher authority to bind the entity in order to control it and command it to act contrary to its own will.

The rite is mainly thought to be practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, but some Orthodox and Protestant denominations such as the Pentecostals and other charismatic groups practice it as well. These groups refer to the practice as "deliverance ministry" where gifted people drive out devils and heal while they touch the persons with their hands, called laying on of hands, and pray over them. Exorcism (Greek Orthodox)
The Official Exorcism in the Catholic Church can be done only by a special priest, duly authorized by the Bishop of the Dioceses.

There are also Exorcisms among the Jewish religion, examples of which may be seen in Talmud (Schabbath, xiv, 3; Aboda Zara, xii, 2; Sanhedrin, x, 1)... and exorcisms in other religions, as in the Babylonian and Egyptian cultures.
Jews and Demons Exorcism by Rabbis (with information on Talmud Sages and their magic).

In the Catholic Church there are three kind of Exorcisms:

1- Exorcism of the possessed:
A simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God and more especially in the name of Jesus Christ crucified, is the usual form of exorcism... But sometimes in addition to words some symbolic action is employed, such as breathing (insufflatio), or laying of hands on the subject, or making the sign of the cross

2- Baptismal exorcism
At an early age the practice was introduced into the Church of exorcising catechumens as a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism... now it is usually done during the baptismal ceremony.

3- Other Exorcisms
Places and things as well as persons are naturally liable to diabolical infestation, and exorcism in regard to them is nothing more that a prayer to God, in the name of His Church, to restrain this diabolical power supernaturally, and a profession of faith in His willingness to do so on behalf of His servants on earth.

Exorcism--The Facts (as viewed in the Catholic Church)

A simple Exorcism: For Catholic Priests or Layman

The Catholic Prayer of Exorcism (in Latin and English) The Roman Ritual of Exorcism
Exorcism - The Roman Ritual (2) - The Rite for Exorcism On the Current Norms Governing Exorcisms (CDF)
Vatican issues first new Exorcism Ritual since 1614

Real Audio Sound Byte of Deliverance How to Stop a Demonic Attack



There are three kinds of demonic influence:

The Exorcism is mainly used in the third kind: Possession.

1- Temptation: For everybody, including Jesus when he was fasting and praying for 40 days!? you and your friends will also be tempted, specially when you pray and fast long, like Jesus. (Mt.4).

2- Obsession, compulsion, oppression They are very frequent, causing the impulse to masturbation, stealing, lying, hitting the relatives, homosexuality, alcohol, drugs, irrational compulsions, depressions? Here the person may have an irresistible impulse to perform something he well knows it is wrong or irrational, or an anxious and inescapable preoccupation with an idea or emotion that he realizes it is not right? in contrast with the demonic possession, here the person can exercise volition, he is capable of voluntary actions, and he realizes he is doing something bad or wrong.

3- Demonic Possession: A demon takes over the personality of a human, so that he is incapable of voluntary thinking or actions: Most heretics, those involved in the occult? Here the person is even unable to recognize that he may be wrong? at times, the individual normal personality is replaced by another, specially while talking about a specific subject: He is fine, except when you touch that special subject? other times, not often, he may manifest bizarre symptoms, such as hysteric behavior, incoherent speech, uncontrollable physical movements, with extraordinary feats o physical strength that may be self-destructive or destructive to others or to material objects?

In all instances, it has to considered that the symptoms or actions may be due to pathological (natural) factors rather than by the supernatural power of evil spirits.

Official Church exorcisms are rare, and mainly on these kind of Demonic Possession, but those which are performed are usually administered by priests who are special delegates of their local bishops, always after a very rigorous physical and psychological examination that rules out any natural explanation for the problems. And since 1972, the official Church declared that the minor order of exorcist would not longer be received.



Catholic Encyclopedia Exorcism (How to Stop a Demonic Attack, Protection) Exorcism Exorcism... Ask


Here is an article. I thought I had heard (once or twice) that Exorcisms became popular as a result of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Yes...everything goes back to the OT. The Book of Ecclesiastes is proof of that one.

Ecclesiastes 1:9...The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. KJV 1611 AV.

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Brother John said "Act 8:13 And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

Here is a situation of signs being used to win the Gentiles. Also the Church at Corinth used sign gifts 1 Cor 14, deal with their used of speaking in tongues.

Hi Bro John, the Lord bless you. Saw your post! Nice to meet you. Here are some things for you to ponder concerning Simon the sorcerer.

1. Simon is a Samaritan (mixed bloodline Israelite / Ishmaelite - not categorically gentile) in Acts 8 (four years) prior to the gospel being given to the gentiles (Acts 10).
2. Simon believes signs being performed by whom? Phillip (a Jew) for whom? Jews (Acts 8:12) so Simon saw what? Jews performing signs to the Jews and he himself as a Samaritan (vs 14) also believed these Jewish Apostles (only) vs 18 and their signs which he "saw".
3. The gentiles are not who the Apostles were trying to convert in Acts 8. Remember they didn't even believe a gentile could be saved at this point in Bible history, and were ready to trounce Peter for preaching to gentiles in Acts 10. So much so that Peter feared what would happen to him when the Jews of Jerusalem heard he had preached to gentiles and so he rehearsed how he was going to tell them...and he took Jewish witnesses with him as backup (Acts 11:2) to verify his story. So the gentiles who did speak in tongues did so for one purpose....to prove to Jews who didn't think they could be saved, that yes now in Acts 10 salvation had come to the gentiles (Acts 11:18) have now been allowed to accept and believe the gospel!

Summary: Acts 8 is pre-gentile salvation. The gentile is not the intended audience. Simon believes Jewish signs, performed exclusively by Jewish Apostles and he was thereby convinced of the reality of the gospel by this manifestation of signs yet when he believes, he DOES NOT speak in tongues nor perform ANY sign himself as evidence of conversion, nor at any point recorded thereafter.

Lastly - you mentioned Gentiles in Corinth - yes, of a certainty there were gentiles in the church at Corinth... a church started by a Jew, filled with Jews (and gentiles) and wherein signs were performed to win Jews who had not yet believed.

I could write you a book on it if needed, but suffice it to say Jews returning to their homeland, speaking the language of where they may have been born abroad, upon entering the church at the seaport city of Corinth, would be able to hear the gospel of Christ Jesus spoken in thier own tongue as a manifest token of its powerful truth through a gift of the Holy Spirit to a Jew or a gentile at that time for the purpose of convincing Jews only of the truth of the gospel.
*One point to consider though. No gentile is recorded as speaking in tongues outside Acts 10 and then only for the purpose of convincing Jews that salvation (not tongues or signs) had come to the gentile. It is only assumed that gentiles spoke in tongues routinely in the Corinthian church.

Hope that helps a little.

In Christ
Bro Malcolm


You can play semantics with words. Yes the Samartians were half bread of Jewish descent, but that does not prove only the sing gifts were used with reference to the Jews. Paul in Corinthians does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile since there were both in the church He is talking to the church as a whole as he deals with tongues, which was a sign gift.

God bless
John

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Hi Brother Kevin, Let me see if I can respond to your concerns and questions / comments: I'll try to go in order numerically to keep it somewhat organized.
1. "Buzz words": "thats not in the Bible" - yes, you're right "sign" gifts as a term isn't in the Bible, neither is the word "Korea" or "youth pastor" or "sunday school" or "Pauline epistles" but these terms do have substance and meaning nontheless sound.

Why are they sound? Because you say they are? Because that's what you were taught? This is faulty reasoning. You are basically adding to the Bible and using the excuse that "'youth pastor' or 'Korea' isn't in the Bible either." Does that mean I can say that the Bible says that we are supposed to eat chocolate every day and, if you challenge it, tell you that the Bible doesn't mention "Baptist churches" either instead of presenting Scripture to back up my belief? You can tell me it's sound all day but until you have something to back it up with in Scripture, it's meaningless.

2. That this word was created by men to "do away with a gift" I'd disagree with that assessment. Baptist doctrine doesn't "do away with" tongues. That is impossible and violates scripture. What we do is accept what the Bible says about what exactly they really were as opposed to what is claimed by the many who join Elymas in "perverting the right ways of the Lord" and who ever struggle to subtly "pervert the gospel of Christ" (See Acts 13:10 and Gal 1:7).

Baptists are so careful not to be led into something unBiblical, that they would go to extra-Biblical lengths to eliminate something that can be over or improperly used. There isn't any Scripture to indicate they have ceased.

3. "What you have is this verse (ref 1 Cor 14:22) from which people get it" -- Scripture 'with' scripture must include as well to whom the signs were given friend Kevin. Ref 1 Cor 1:22 the Jews seek a sign. I need not call to your attention that the signs (you will accept that the term signs is Biblical?) begin with Moses (a jew) and are given to the children of Israel (Jews) to prove something (a Biblical truth) to them? Moreover that throughout Scripture no sign (or tongues) ever occurs outside their presence. It is said plainly in scripture tongues are for a sign and who is it that the Bible says seeks signs? The Jews.

And yet, you still don't have any Scripture to indicate that anything outside of tongues were a sign. Sure, that is what has come to be accepted by many in Christianity, but the Bible only ever says that tongues are for a sign. In addition, while you are emphasizing that all signs are for the Jews, why did you pass over the last part of that verse? "but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." This verse couldn't be more clear that prophesying is for believers. Indeed, we see Christians having visions multiple times in the book of Acts that didn't involve an unsaved person.

4. If indeed the Bible says tongues are for them that don't believe (and it does) isn't it odd that only believers argue it's reality in our time and not unbelievers who got saved under it's application and use? How very strange.... I attended a tongue faking church for many years....same good redneck country folk every service speaking chicken language to impress one another....never a soul saved who otherwise didnt understand the gospel but through tongues heard and believed....how very odd.

You're basing your understanding of tongues on what you experienced in a church that misused and, like you said, most likely faked it. I think we should be careful not to let our human reactions affect our beliefs about Scripture. Some fundamentalist Baptists are hateful, bitter people. Does that mean that I should say that all Baptists are unScriptural and should be rejected?

5. Your premise that miracles and prophesyings are not signs is incorrect - these are demonstrable "signs" and as such never occur outside the presence of Jews. They are acts of power demonstration which convince one to believe without faith...rather than by faith to beleive and then see the manifestations of power.

Chapter and verse.

6. You said Not all signs are supernatural. I would disagree and say any gift of God is quite wonderful & supernatural! What ever ones gift of God - be it helps, teaching, wisdom.... it is a supernatural empowering of the Holy Spirit and wonderfully wrought in the believer!

Yes, I agree. My point was, not every gift is supernatural by our interpretation. We tend to like to throw out anything that is too weird or unusual for us in favor of what makes sense.

7. You say "we rationalize away manifest showings of the Holy Ghost...." Sound doctrine disagrees. Having never seen the pillar of fire for example doesn't mean it didn't exist. It does however follow the instruction to study and rightly divide to know to whom, when, how this wonder was given. The pillar of fire was real, did occur, for a specific time, for a specific people, for a specific purpose. Others beheld it, but it was not for them....and it's time is ended. Is that rationalizing away the pillar of fire? I guess some might say yes.....your just being "logical". In the end the pillar of fire, certainly a manifest working of power of the Holy Spirit, is no longer with us.... that doesn't mean I don't believe it 'once was' with us.

You're talking apples and oranges. Just because it's easy to say that the pillar of fire no longer exists for us today, doesn't give anyone a basis to tie it into tongues. That's the job of clever seminary teachers who like to make grand extra-Biblical analogies to make their own pet doctrines look good.


Also, :goodpost::goodpost: Dwayne.

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There are seven "Spiritual Gifts."

They are as follows:

1) The Gift of Administration

2) The Gift of Exhortation

3) The Gift of Giving

4) The of Mercy

5) The Gift of Prophecy

6) The Gift of Service

7) The Gift of Teaching



The Gift of Administration (leading, ruling):



Romans 12:6 : ?Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith.?



Here are a couple of things about this gift. First of all, the word in the Greek is proistemi which means that one who stands out front. So therefore, with that definition you can see that there will be some characteristics true about this person and some misunderstandings also.



Now probably the two most misunderstood gifts of these seven are the prophets and the rulers, because of their responsibility and sometimes because of the way they come across, but whether it?s in a business, a home, or a church you need somebody with the gift of administration. For the believers, these gifts are vital. You cannot separate the spiritual life from the physical. You and I are beings inhabited by the Spirit of God so that wherever we are there is something spiritual going on.



The Strengths

1.He has the ability to see the big picture and visualize the final results of a major undertaking. You can describe this person as a dreamer in action. It?s one thing to be able to dream but it?s another thing to put those dreams into practice. Here is a person who is able to see the big picture and visualize the big picture as already having been accomplished and completed. And that is the key to goal setting. Being able to see it as already done. When a person is able to do that he can accomplish something because he has a sense of direction. It?s one thing to think about something, but it is another to visualize the finished product and how it will come to pass. Park ? Picnic tables ? Building houses.



2. The ability to break down the bigger goals into smaller achievable tasks. This person sees that all things are possible because, as somebody once said, ?How do you eat an elephant --- one bite at a time.? The person with the gift of organization is never discouraged by the size of the task. In their mind they begin to break it down and see it in bite-size pieces. Then if I take a bite, you take a bite, she takes a bite, we can lick this in a matter of time. This person is not only able to see the big picture, but can see it broken down in small achievable tasks. Now let me say this because all of us need it. I preached one night on goals in Glouster, a couple got the message, put it to work and they are doing great. That can happen to anybody who has the wisdom to listen, the faith to believe, and the courage to apply. The idea of the person with the gift of administration is so important to everybody, setting goals, for you, for family, job or business. Here is the problem; people hear Scriptural counsel and go out the door and never apply it.



3. He has a motivation to organize that which he is responsible. A person with the gift of organization is a self-starter. A person with the gift of organization is the type of person that you don?t have to pry out of bed. You know you tell them to get up and three hours later? You show this person the goal and they start kicking up dust. They want to get on and get the job done. Here is what drives this person?he sees the big picture, breaks it in pieces and then the joy comes as he sees the pieces fall into place. Brother, that moves them on.



4. An ability to know the resources available to reach a goal. A person who is able to see a goal --- family, personal, business, or church --- is likewise very sensitive to what is available to get the goal achieved. Whether it be resources of people, money, time, knowledge, ability, talents, gifts, whatever it might be, as soon as he sees the goal he becomes sensitive to the possible resources. Here is what you have to remember about this person, one thing this person does not need is negativism. Don?t tell this person here is the reason this can?t be done, you show this person the goal, they get sensitive to all the possibilities and they don?t want to hear why it can?t be done. They want to hear the reason it can be. The thing about the church today is we have many people in it who can tell you a thousand reasons why something can?t be done. If I would have told you 10 years ago that we were going to have a building as nice as this and that, you would have said no way. Many things never get accomplished today because we have too many negative people squashing it with their negative attitudes. God is looking for positive people who will trust in Him for the Super Natural. God has placed these people in the body to remind us what God can do as we check out the resources God makes provision. Faith is the missing element.





5. An ability to know what can and cannot be delegated. This person knows how to find the people who can do it, to know what can be and cannot be delegated. Why would a person delegate anything? (1) to involve other people, (2) save time, (3) free them to keep big picture in mind, and (4) to teach others. This person may sometimes seem egotistical and that he is going to do it all. One of the reasons is there are some things they don?t know how to do. Therefore, they have to delegate them, there are in the flock people who are talented and gifted and skilled. Why should they have to learn how when there are resources available. An ability to know what can be and cannot be delegated.





6. A tendency to remove himself from detracting details in order to focus on the ultimate goals. IN accomplishing anything, whether home, business, or church somebody has to keep the big picture in mind. Somebody has to be sure that we are all headed in the same direction. You?re here, someone there, another elsewhere, all moving in the same direction to accomplish the task. True in your home?job descriptions. The person who has the gift of administration has the ability to detach himself from the details of the operation to assure himself that the organization is in unity, running smoothly and that the goal of the big picture is coming in place. But quenched when people will not do the work so he can remove himself from the details.



7. A willingness to endure reaction. A person who has this gift must also have been born spiritually with a rhinoceros hide, that is, tough skinned, because it is the Greek meaning of the word, one who stands out front. When an infantry goes into battle, who gets shot first? The folks out front, not the general who is back at headquarters, the man on the front lines gets most of the flak. The person who has the gift of administration and is walking in the Spirit is going to get flak. This is just one of the responsibilities of management. The person not walking in the Spirit will get a whole lot more of the flak. For example: vocation?boss, he will get flak. Now listen, if the person who is leading is always concerned about people?s opinions and feeling, he will never accomplish anything. You have to be able to see the goal, move in that direction, carry as many people with you, and go obediently and humbly before God. You cannot listen to every negative thing that you hear, because most of us hear far too much negativism of why God can?t do this, why He won?t do that, why this will not work. God is not interested in that, He did not say the Great Commission is to sit down. He said the commission is to evangelize the world which means moving forward. Churches are dying all over the world today because we have negative people in leadership who are not willing to believe God because they don?t want to hurt anybody?s feelings. I have had my feelings hurt, haven?t you? And we are going to keep on getting them hurt as long as we are out front, doing God?s work and until our feelings become less sensitive. You want to be divinely sensitive, but not so sensitive that you don?t want the flak when the war starts. Obey God and you will get flak. So when you see somebody who has that gift of getting flak, go and encourage them! Remind them that there is more than flak flying, there is faith flying, gratitude flying and thanksgiving flying. Hang in there!!



8. A need for loyalty and confidence from those who are being directed and served. This person is loyal and he also demands loyalty. When a person who is leading finds disloyalty, they are grieved in their heart, grieved because disloyalty means to them that this section of the work will not be done well, and therefore, this person seeing this piece not falling into place sees the goal being in danger; no so much for them personally, but the objective is in danger and becomes very upset.



9. A tendency to assume responsibility if no structure exists. Here is what happens with this person with this gift. Let?s say you have 7 people within a group. And there is a need and (1) the person with gift of mercy says: ?Oh goodness, let?s pray for the poor thing.? (2) The gift of service says, ?Show me what to do, I am ready to work,? (3) The gift of prophesy says, ?Well, they shouldn?t have gotten in that mess to begin with.? (4) The gift of teaching says, ?Well now, here are the facts and here is what really happened.? (5) The gift of exhortation says, ?Here are some steps to work this situation out.? (6) This gift of organization is setting and waiting and if nobody else rises to take responsibility, this person will step forward and say if all this is true and you people are willing to do what you say, then I am willing to give the leadership and organize, if necessary. Now what would that naturally bring from people, (ego, who put you in charge, who said you know how to do it?) This person will not push leadership but he can only sit back and wait so long. He can?t stand disorganization, this sometimes causes people to misunderstand them.



10. A desire to complete a task as soon as possible. The person with this gift has the attitude to accomplish this as orderly as possible, as well and as quickly. He is conscience of time, of stewardship, their conscience of the order, you see all of us should live ordered lives. Honor one another.



11. A joy seeing all the parts come together. A person with a gift of organization does not get a joy out of praise but they get a joy out of the pieces coming together. Completing the picture, then by seeing other people who are full of joy as they see the task completed that drives that person like nothing else. That brings them contentment.



12. A desire to move on to a new challenge when a previous task has been completed. When that person has orderly and rapidly gone about the task and they see it accomplished immediately, they are thinking about the next task. That?s the way to keep things moving. I believe people who have goals in life will live longer. Solomon?Retirement?No purpose for living, suicide victims?no purpose; church members?no purpose?God?s waiting on you to move, then the resources come. We don?t work out of approval but we work out loyalty and devotion to Him. How can you listen and let Satan rob you? We have to guard the truth. Not stealing truth but your life. No application in your life to truth. Satan wins.





MISUNDERSTANDING THE GIFT



1. The ability to delegate responsibility may appear as laziness and avoiding work. If a person is a good manager, he won?t do it all. Remember grieved. He will try to involve people. As many people as necessary. So somebody might say, ?What?s he doing? He?s lazy. He is just getting us to do his work. I don?t want to be used.? Wait, more when I get to No. 3.

2. The willingness to endure reaction may appear too callous. The person has to have a tough skin because he cannot please everybody. As so they appear to be insensitive, tough skinned, don?t care. It isn?t that they don?t care, or are not sensitive?it is just the fact that if someone is out here drowning, you don?t argue over what color the raft should be that you throw them?you just do it. And the people who are negative and critical have problem with this guy.



3. The neglect in explaining why the task must be done will prompt workers to think they are being misused. Listen carefully to 2 things:



Someone may say, ?I don?t want to feel someone is using me.? Let me ask you a question? Have you ever told God that? God uses everyone of us and most people I know are praying for God to use them more. You see people who say, ?Oh, God use me.? You know what He is waiting for. For you to get up and He will use you if you get fit to be used. Listen, being misused doesn?t bother me one bit as long as I know God?s will is being accomplished. As long as I know somebody might get saved, why do I care about being misused. Is not Romans 8:28 true: ?And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.?



4. The viewing of people as resources may appear that projects are more important. This is a misunderstanding because you see the goal eventually works out to benefit people. What are God?s resources on this earth? We are His resources to complete His task.



The desire to complete the task swiftly may appear to be insensitive to schedule and priority of others. Somebody says, ?Well, I am tired and you don?t care how I feel.? The question is not how you feel, it is ?Is the objective worthy of the sweat, blood and tear of getting it done.? Do you know what the problem is with most Americans and may be a recession will help us, we need to get a whole vision of what is important in life. What is really important. We should come to God and say, ?Lord, what do you want, here I am.? Can you ever come out a loser obeying God? No way. My heart just pounds on the inside because I want for you the best, and you see the worst thing you can do as a believer is settle for less than your God given capacity, that is Sin. Let me ask you, ?What are you doing with God?s gift to you?? I can?t answer that. I believe God is up to something big and he can?t get this outfit moving. Including me, and you all. People are dying, going to hell and we?re concerned about our vacation and weekends, our feelings, etc.



Let?s look at this fellow because he has assets and liabilities. How does a person with the gift respond when in Flesh and Walking in Spirit.



WALKING IN SPIRIT

7 Words



Orderly ? They are going to go about there life in an orderly way.

Self Starters ? When they see the goal , they kick up dust. Let?s move!!

Responsibility ? They are willing to be responsible for that which they have the authority for.

Humility ? A person with gift of organization must have a submissive, humble spirit. They must be humble, motivating out of love and loyalty and not domineering and dictating to others.

Decisiveness ? This person must have the ability to make a decision at a crucial, critical time and willing to make a decision when it is very unpopular.

Determination ? Nothing can stop them?the goal is worthy of price. Make a commitment and move and not turn back. You may have to have corrections along the way, but never lose site of the goal.

Loyalty ? That person is loyal and expects it in return.



WALKING IN THE FLESH

7 Words



Disorganized ? Can?t put it together.

Un-aggressive ? Laid back, apathetic, slothful.

Unreliable ? Can?t trust or depend on them.

Pride ? Dictatorial, their way ? lead by intimidation. Lead with love!

Double-mindedness ? Think so ? don?t.

Faintheartedness ? Fearful, sidetracked, no confidence.

Unfaithful ? to support his resources.



A person with this gift has tremendous potential when walking in Spirit and Devastating in the flesh.

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And yet, you still don't have any Scripture to indicate that anything outside of tongues were a sign.


While I do not agree with PastorHarrison that all signs were only for the Jews, MANY things outside of tongues were indeed signs.

Here is just one example:

"Matthew 12 38-41 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."

"Luke 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."

We see from this that Jonah was a sign to the people of Nineveh....

As far as as the sign of tongues having ceased today generally speaking, lets look at this passage:

"Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Where do we see this happening today? We don't see it, because those things were all signs. Signs gifts are temporary until the light of the gospel is revealed. Then they are not needed. Now in darker parts of the world and in special situations I would certainly not rule modern day signs out, but they vanish the more the gospel is spread.

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1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Clearly the majority in the church of Corinth had come out of Gentile paganism. Yes some where Jews.

In the context of this mainly Gentile church the sign gifts as well as other gifts are spoken of as still in use and as instruction for the Church then and now.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

God Bless
John

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Romans 12

Discuss all the gifts, brief description ?

Gift of Exortation ? Bible character: Paul. Colossians 1: 28, 29 ? 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.



Exhorter ? is motivated by giving you steps of growth and then seeing you grow step by step. They are maturity oriented, growth oriented, and discipleship oriented. They want to present you complete in Christ. V. 28 The motivation is so you grow in Christ?s likeness. Everybody needs a personal friend who can encourage them.



STRENGTHS



1. A motive to urge people to their full spiritual maturity in Christ. This person is not interested in getting the facts. The thing they are interested in is; are you growing? Are you taking steps in your spiritual life. The exhorter wants to know what you?re doing to deliberately grow.



2. An ability to visualize spiritual achievement for people and to use this to motivate them to action. It doesn?t take this person long to be able to discern the potential of a person or a group. They can visualize spiritual achievement. They might look at you and say; ?Man, what could you do if God had all of your life?? What could you do if you were totally surrendered to him? This person can take your life and visualize the big picture of what your life could be. They want you to become the person that God wants you to be.



3. An ability to discern where a person is in spiritual growth and to speak on that level. The person with the gift of exhortation will usually start asking questions. They want to find out where you?re at spiritually. What is God doing in your life? If somebody came up to you today and said; ?What?s God doing in our life?, what would you say ? Ah Ah. The exhorter asks questions: Bible reading?, Prayer Life? Quiet time? He sometimes may look like he is being nosey, but No, he wants to evaluate where you?re at so he can get you to the steps of becoming mature ? Calculator mine. You may say, don?t get pushy but he wants you to grow and he wants you to show evidence. Repeat Step 3. He wants to walk you the parakletos. People in the counseling business need to be encouragers ? A counselor is only good when he puts the cross in his counseling. A counselor tries to help people but only the cross can set them free. Pot of stench, stirred up ? without the cross. I am not saying they cannot help, but only God can provide deliverance. I cannot be delivered by self effort.





4. A desire to give precise steps of action when urging people toward spiritual maturity. Naturally, they will do that because they see where we are, then go to the Word of God to come up with step-by-step steps to liberate us to potential maturity with Christ. Repeat Step 4. Probably the biggest problem with my own preaching for example; is challenging- preaching without telling people how to do it. Step 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 It?s one thing to be told what?s wrong with you, but now how do I correct it? This is needed in preaching, teaching, etc. The teacher wants to give truth and then sit down. The exhorter says; ?What good is truth if truth if you don?t show them how to use it!?



5. A tendency to welcome personal tribulations as a chief motivation of spiritual growth. II Corinthians 12: 7-10 7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.



6. A tendency to avoid all types of systems of information which lack personal application. Example: Here is an exhorter, teacher, and prophet sitting out here in the congregation. Someone is speaking, the prophet is listening for a message of what is God saying. What is the message from God. The Gift of Service is saying, what can I do to help the situation. The Gift of Teaching is checking all that is said for complete truth. The exhorter is sitting wondering if you are going to tell them how to do what you just told them they are to do? The motivation of the encourager is not just giving you facts or a message or projects; they want to see you growing. An exhorter would be very bored with a teacher who does not give steps.



7. A desire for face to face discussion in order to determine and insure a positive response. All through the epistles here is what you hear Paul say; I desire to come to you - I desire to see you ? I want to see you ? I long to see you - my hearts desire is to see you. Paul wanted to meet the people face to face, because he wants to see if your learning what they are saying. If you are, this motivates them on. If you don?t listen to an exhorter, you grieve him. The exhorter does not like small talk but he wants you to grow by leaps and bounds. He is motivated by seeing you and your expression of: ?Hey, I want to grow.? An encourager is great for discipleship. Going to see these people face to face and encouraging them to grow. We all need encouragement!



8. An ability to discover insights from personal experience which can be validated in Scripture. Lets take the teacher; he goes first to the Word of God and then makes application. The exhorter first of all watches peoples lives and then goes back to the Word of God to find the principle to take back to you and say here is what God says. The exhorter is interested primarily in those principles that give people solid steps of motivation to help them grow.



9. A motivation to bring harmony between diverse groups of Christians, and and awareness that harmony is basic to spiritual maturity. Example: Here is a big family squabble ? the prophet says: I don?t want to have anything to do with that, Mercy! Says OH MY! I can?t bare to hear it. the exhorter says, let me get in the middle of that, discern the problem, visualize what can happen in this family and then give each member of the family precise steps toward correction of the problem. They are unity oriented, they get delight in the midst of trouble, it?s a challenge.



10. An enjoyment with those eager to follow steps of action. A person with the Gift of Exhortation is not interested in chitchat, a ballgame, the weather,etc. He just wants to get around you so he can motivate you.



MISUNDERSTANDINGS



1. The emphasis on steps of action may appear to over-simplify the problem.. Here is a person who has real problems and here comes the exhorter and he says; now here?s what you need to do. And they simply give, lets say, 3 steps out of this problem. The person says; wait a minute, you know how long it took me to get where I am, it?s taken me years to get here and I am hurting and you?re going to give me 1,2,3 ? forget it! The exhorter knows Steps 1,2, & 3 come from God. He know these steps are steps of deliverance. Here is the problem; they hear the exhorter saying what he is not saying. They think he thinks that the problem is nothing. But they need to listen to these steps. He is visualizing how they can get out of the problem. So they are misunderstood by his steps.
2. The urgency in giving the steps may appear as having over-confidence. Oh, you mean, if I do 1,2, 3 that will settle my problem? You might not say is like that, but its true. Lets say here is a fella or woman who has bitterness in his heart toward their father, I mean they are angry at the world, bitter, mad a their father so they are angry at the world. And lets say the exhorter says Step (1) Go to your father and confess the attitude of hate, and they say you mean to tell, that would solve the problem, No Way!, what?s the next step? A person may feel that this is and over simplification when it?s not. The exhorter is misunderstood because they think it sounds too simple.
3. The desire to win new Christians threw living examples may appear as a lack of interest in personal evangelism. The emphasis of the exhorter is on spiritual growth so somebody may say, you don?t care about lost people. By necessity, I must preach to believers because if I didn?t, you would dry up and blow away. That does not mean we?re not evangelistic. The pastor is to equip the saints so they can carry out the work of the ministry. So don?t accuse him of being not interested in salvation. As a matter of fact, they get saved and the exhorter says; give them to me. All gifts are needed in the body.
4. The use of scripture for practical applications may appear to be taken out of context. The teacher says it was written to the Babyblonians, 500 BC and therefore has nothing to do with you today. The exhorter says I don?t care who it WAS written to, it applies to this situation and it will work on this situation. Remember the same principles in the Bible work for us as well as it did for Abraham, Isaac, and David. So sometimes accused of taking scripture out of context. That what he said through the psalmist David. The entrance of they work giveth light forever.
5. The emphasis on steps of action may appear to disregard the feeling of those being counseled. This person says to somebody; listen, I know you are hurting, I understand, but listen to how to do these things to move out of this situation. Mercy says wait ? exhorter says Steps 1,2,3,4,5 ? lets do all of them.





SPIRITUAL





1. Wisdom ? Able to give principles.





2. Discernment ? Discern your spirit.





3. Faith ? They believe God can deliver you.



4. Discretion ? They know how fast to move you.



5. Love- They accept you the way you are and give steps from there.



6. Creative ? Create the steps for every condition.



7. Enthusiasm ? See potential in everybody. Lets go! You can do it.



He has dynamic potential ? terrible when out of the Spirit.

CARNAL





1. Natural Inclination ? Do it the way the world does it.



2. Judgemental ? Critical





3. Presumption





4. Gullible





5. Selfishness ? Don?t call me. I don?t have time.



6. Underachievement ? Layed back.





7. Apathy

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18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:18 (KJV)

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:16 (KJV)

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:4 (KJV)

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 4:31 (KJV)

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Acts 6:3 (KJV)

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:55 (KJV)

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:17 (KJV)

24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

Acts 11:24 (KJV)

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Acts 13:9 (KJV)

52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:52 (KJV)

If you will study these verse, you will find that being filled with the Holy Spirit is something that is repeated. Anyone who feels their completely filled with the Holy Spirit as you ever will be them there is a problem. Actually this is the only major ministry of the Spirit to the believer which is repeatable. If you will take a look at the verse from acts it will be revealed to you the same persons are repeatedly filled with the Spirit.

Based on the depth of a person Spiritual maturity & depth of ones ministry there must be different degrees of being filled with the Spirt.

I might add, the Holy Spirit will:

Pray for us Romans 8:26

Guide John 16:13

Teach 1 John 2:27

Give boldness Acts 1:8

Impart love of Christ Romans 5:5

Conform you to the image of Christ 2 Corinthians 3:18

Strengthen his new name Ephesians 3:16

Reveal Bible truths 1 Corinthians 2:10

Give you assurance Romans 8:16

Give liberty Romans 8:2 2 Corinthians 3:17

Fill mouths with appropriate words Mark 13:11

Give victory over the flesh Galatians 5:16

Give us singing thankful and submissive heart Ephesians 5:18-21

Give fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23

Its quite amazing what all the Holy Spirit helps us with, I feel many never realize just how important and the number of things which the Holy Spirit helps us with and I feel sure I missed some of them.

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[quote="Jerry80871852"]18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:18 (KJV)

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:16 (KJV)

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:4 (KJV)

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 4:31 (KJV)

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Acts 6:3 (KJV)

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:55 (KJV)

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:17 (KJV)

24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

Acts 11:24 (KJV)

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Acts 13:9 (KJV)

52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 13:52 (KJV)

If you will study these verse, you will find that being filled with the Holy Spirit is something that is repeated. Anyone who feels their completely filled with the Holy Spirit as you ever will be them there is a problem. Actually this is the only major ministry of the Spirit to the believer which is repeatable. If you will take a look at the verse from acts it will be revealed to you the same persons are repeatedly filled with the Spirit.

Based on the depth of a person Spiritual maturity & depth of ones ministry there must be different degrees of being filled with the Spirt.

I might add, the Holy Spirit will:

Pray for us Romans 8:26

Guide John 16:13

Teach 1 John 2:27

Give boldness Acts 1:8

Impart love of Christ Romans 5:5

Conform you to the image of Christ 2 Corinthians 3:18

Strengthen his new name Ephesians 3:16

Reveal Bible truths 1 Corinthians 2:10

Give you assurance Romans 8:16

Give liberty Romans 8:2 2 Corinthians 3:17

Fill mouths with appropriate words Mark 13:11

Give victory over the flesh Galatians 5:16

Give us singing thankful and submissive heart Ephesians 5:18-21

Give fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23

Its quite amazing what all the Holy Spirit helps us with, I feel many never realize just how important and the number of things which the Holy Spirit helps us with and I feel sure I missed some of them.[/quote]

:thumb :goodpost:

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Romans 12:6

[color=#0000FF]The Gift of Giving[/color]



I will give some names of apostles and servants in the Bible who best exemplify these gifts:



Prophecy --- Peter

Service --- Timothy

Teaching --- Luke

Exhortation --- Paul

Giving --- Matthew



Matthew has more to say about giving than any other apostle does.



1. He includes wise counsel on giving.

2. He is the only one who talks about giving secretly and he also talks about the misuse of money.

3. What was his occupation?

4. He used to spend money unwisely and then God began to work in his life.

5. He also gives us details about the gifts brought to Jesus.

6. He tells us about, in detail, the 30 pieces of silver that was used to betray Jesus.



If you look at the book of Matthew, you will also see that he records Jesus? condemnation of the Pharisees improper care of their parents in regards to money.



Three statements about the gift of giving

1. This gift is not limited to people with a lot of money.

2. When walking in the Spirit you want to give, you live to give, you can?t give enough and that giving Spirit cannot be satisfied.

3. The gift of giving is just like the rest; they are given according to the grace of God. He gives it to whom he chooses. It?s not your decision!



The strengths:



1. A keen ability to make wise purchases and investments in order to have money available to give away. The average person wants to get a good deal so he has more money left for himself, but the person with this gift wants a good investment so he has more money to give to others. The other gifts say, ?I have more money left over,? while the gift of giving says, ?Oh, more money to give away,? because he lives to give. A good vision on purchases.



2. A desire to give quietly to effective projects or ministries without public notice. If you see somebody running around saying, I will give it to so and so. Let?s say we need $1000 to do the job outside. (100)? The person with the gift of giving will be grieved because he may want to give the whole $1000, but will never tell it. They want to give quietly. They are motivated by giving not by the applause of man. If he gets in the flesh, he may want applause. But his main objective is to see the Lord?s work move on.



3. An enjoyment of meeting needs without pressure and appeals. This person loves to give but if he gets a telegram or letter in mail that says we?re going to close up today if you don?t give, they close it up and lay it aside. Or if they feel tremendous pressure it turns them off. They want to give, but they are motivated from within not outward pressure. You say pastor don?t you pressure us? No, I just inform. If you are getting pressure it?s from Him. My responsibility is to inform you. He is turned off by pressure tactics --- radio ministry. They need information, direction, and time to wisely give it.



4. A desire to use his/her giving in a way to motivate others to give. A person with the gift of giving sometimes notices around him people who may not have as much to give as he does, but one thing that motivates this person is he believes that if he gives, that will motivate others to give what they have. He wants these people to get involved in the cycle of giving and receiving. He knows that anybody can get in that cycle. Plus, he wants to see the entire picture come together. He gets joy out of being able to give. This person does not necessarily just give money but time, etc.



5. An ability to see financial needs that other people tend to overlook. For example: The teacher, the prophet, and the exhorter may walk by this need, but the person with this gift has his antenna?s always out. He is seeking ways of being used of God by giving. Example: Let?s say we have a small group of people discussing someone?s need. A prophet, teacher, exhorter, service---

Service says --- I?ll help get it done.

Teaching says --- Let?s get the facts and the details why this happened.

Prophet says --- Well, if they would have done this, they wouldn?t be in that mess.

Exhorter is thinking of steps to get them out.

Giver is calculating 1. How much they need, 2. How can I get it to them, and 3. How much can I trust them with?

We are all motivated differently. If all of us just want to give them money, will that do them any good? So, this person has his antennas out.



6. An ability to test faithfulness and wisdom by how people handle funds. Now look in Luke 16.



7. This person has a tendency to practice personal frugality and has an ability to be content with lesser necessitites of life. You cannot look at a person with the gift of giving and tell they have it. Sometimes they have large resources and are very frugal. They don?t have to be around things. A person without the gift and a lot of money would get lost in the things and probably forget God. They are not motivated by making great, but what to give away. I want to make a lot of money to give God. Don?t believe it. The person with the gift does not have this problem. He wants money to further the work of God, help people, and see others motivated. They want to be a funnel for God to work through.



8. A joy when his gift is answer to a specific prayer. A person with this gift senses great gratitude ? when the sense that God has answered you prayer ? no matter what the amount is ? that gives them extra assurance that God told them to do it. Nothing like knowing God told you. Thank you God I read you right.



9. A dependency on the partner?s counsel to determine the amount of the gift. Here are two believers and God blessed them ? husband and wife. They want to give?God will confirm the amount if both are walking in the Spirit.



10. They always give in the Spirit because they want to be a good steward before God. No matter of the size of the gift. They view the person in the gift not the amount. A young man in a foreign country gave a teacher a rare shell found far away on a dangerous island as an expression for her teaching him. Upon thanking him she said, but you went so far and in dangerous territory. He said, ?But that was part of the gift.? The teacher saw the shell but he saw the trip. The person with the gift of giving is saying this represents me. Their labor is part of the gift. Don?t be ungrateful.



11. A desire to feel a part of the work of the person to whom he/she gives. The person with this gift wants to be a part of what is going on. He doesn?t send a gift and then forget about it. He wants to see the whole picture come about. Not dictate the gift but be a part.







Misunderstandings



As generous and as nice as a person with the gift of giving is, he can be misunderstood.



1. The need to deal with large sums of money may appear to be a focus on temporal things. We all have occupations. You may be a carpenter. Just because you are a carpenter doesn?t mean all you think about is a hammer and nails. People will sometimes think wrong of this person, but he is motivated by what? You may think this is all he thinks about. A person may spend more time thinking about money who has no money, than the person with a lot of money. God is not going to do what you can do, He is going to do what you can?t do when you have done what you can do. If we don?t know the principle of giving and receiving, Satan will steal it.



2. The desire to increase the effectiveness of a ministry by his gift may appear as an attempt to control that ministry. The person with gift of giving would never tell the pastor what to do. There are churches with people who have a lot of money and these people want to control the church. But, the only person with the right to control the church is the Holy Spirit of the Living God. The person with the gift of giving will never give you anything with a loop in it. Here is the difference. A person who says I want to make this contribution to a ministry but they have not given you a gift, but attempted to buy authority. I am sure there are pastors who are grieved when there are these people who buy them off. Nothing is worth selling your conscience for. This person does not manipulate. I am glad that not one person has done that to me. This person does not want control but he wants to be a part. I am glad no matter what the gift size?this person will move about in a sweet humble quiet spirit. All giving needs to be given with this attitude.



3. The attempt to encourage others to give may appear as pressure being put on them. Their motivation is not to embarrass or pressure you, they just want you in on the blessing of giving. They know the blessing.



4. The lack of response to pressure may appear as a lack of generosity. This person clams up under pressure tactics. You say they are tight or stingy. Listen they don?t want outside pressure if they are listening to God. They didn?t need pressure, you take pressure away and they open up. This pressure is a wise steward. They don?t like quick responses.



5. The personal frugality in their actions may appear as selfishness. Especially family.--- Family may see all this giving and think that he doesn?t care. Giver needs to be careful not to look over needs of family. He is sometime more interested in.



Two Lists



Spiritual Carnal

1. Thrifty 1. Extravagant

2. Resourceful- they are thrifty. 2. Wasteful ? not savers

3. Content 3. Covetous-never enough

4. Puntuality- recognizes the need to give 4. Tardiness- opportunities go by

when the iron is hot

5. Tolerant- give and take 5. Prejudice-cut out this group

6. Cautious- very cautious 6. Rashness- costly decision

7. Gracious- gracious to God for 7. un-thankful

using them.



A person with this gift has a beautiful opportunity. As somebody has said-those who can see the invisible, hear the invisible, think the unthinkable, and can do the impossible. There is not limit to what God can do with this person. We are the sons of the King.

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[quote="candlelight"]Kevin...have you located the information on "Spiritual Gifts?" :smile[/quote]
No, but apparently you have. :wink

I don't really think there's much merit in those assessments, though. I used to think so, but I never really gave it much thought. There isn't really any Biblical basis(at all) for the descriptions of the 7 gifts listed. It's more of a personality analysis. That's all fine and well but it leaves Scripture and the Holy Spirit out and focuses instead on our "strengths and weaknesses" according to which "gift" we happened to inherit.

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[quote]While I do not agree with PastorHarrison that all signs were only for the Jews, MANY things outside of tongues were indeed signs.[/quote]
I agree that there were other things that were signs. My disagreement is on gifts all being signs, which Scripture doesn't indicate.

[quote]Where do we see this happening today? We don't see it, because those things were all signs. Signs gifts are temporary until the light of the gospel is revealed. Then they are not needed. Now in darker parts of the world and in special situations I would certainly not rule modern day signs out, but they vanish the more the gospel is spread.[/quote]
Those signs still do occur in some cases. But, these signs are not in any way connected to the gifts of the Holy Spirit that Paul talks about in his letter to the Corinthians. It was a different thing entirely. The Holy Spirit gives us gifts for our roles within the Body. These are separate and distinct from the signs of Mark 16.

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There are seven "Spiritual Gifts."

They are as follows:

1) The Gift of Administration
2) The Gift of Exhortation
3) The Gift of Giving
4) The of Mercy
5) The Gift of Prophecy
6) The Gift of Service
7) The Gift of Teaching

Is this list meant to be exhaustive?

There are many other gifts listed in scripture. The main "lists" are in I Cor 12, Rom 12, and Eph 4 (some argue I Cor 7 says celibacy is a gift, but I have a hard time classifying that as a gift :saint ). Each of those is different.

Perhaps the reason that each list is so different, is because in each case Paul was not trying to say the list was exhaustive, but instead only talk through the ones he was dealing with for that church.

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Good discussions, but as ever, we can all see from some of the comments both here and abroad, that the spiritual gifts [particularly the sign gifts of prophecy, healings, miracles, and tongues] are accompanied and surrounded by "ignorance" (1 Cor 12:1). As with the church at Corinth (which contrary to popular opinion is well documented to have been comprised of both Jew & Gentile) we find today as well that many churches follow the Corinthian lead to misuse, misappropriate, misinterpret, misapply and mistake entirely the gifts and their uses. It is little wonder that Paul found such a constant problem with thier refusal to submit thier "gifts" to God's guidance.

I stress again that Biblical "tongues" (which are in all cases "known" languages) occur curiously consistent with their intended purpose (1 Cor 14:22) which despite all arguments to the contrary are for a sign and the signs are for the Jews according to the Bible (1 Cor 1:22). I know some of the brethren will argue that, certainly Paul found the same problem and had to write a Bible letter to deal with them for their refusal to listen....I suspect, as do some of you, that even after getting the letter many of them just flatly refused his guidance and argued their way around his letter so they could have it their way.

I present this for discussion as well - if indeed tongues didn't cease [which of course they did along with ALL other sign gifts as many verses clearly demonstrate for those willing to rightly divide - but, for discussion's sake lets presume they didn't and that they are as some contend, still for the believers of today]:

If this were actually legitimate ( :loco ) does it not seem rather odd, just a little curious even, that NOT A SOUL has manifested irrefutably (Acts 4:33, 5:12, 5:16 for ex) such 'observable' gifts which were historically done 'AMONG THE PEOPLE' and whereby the act was used to call attention to the manifest power of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Does it not seem but a little odd that NO ONE ANYWHERE in ANY church has the God given power to perform at will miracles (Acts 9:18) or heal (Acts 5:14-15) or tell the future {i.e. Prophesy} (Acts 16:31b)? In fact doesn't it seem just a little strange that without exception the ONLY gift the dear confused brethren cling to {with argumentative diligence} is the very one [indeed the only one] that can be FAKED? Moreover twisted into some unBiblical 'prayer language' [ :uuhm: ] thereby deflecting any question and by bringing said gift out of the private prayer closet and parading it before the church, securing plenty of notoriety among the brethren. Only by pride cometh contention....how true?

Sorry brothers - I don't want you angry with me over your pet gift, but in the end you've still got Jewish signs, performed without ONE exception in the presence of Jews, surrounded by ignorance which was pointed out and criticized by a Jewish brother in writing who in his very first few lines pointed out that signs are required by JEWS and the one last counterfeited manifestation of those signs about which he wrote is tongues, the very one he was careful to point out as a sign and connect to his earlier comment about Jews and signs!

You are of course all welcome be patient with me, to teach me - but with each other let us be careful to attend to Paul's instruction that we not "...dote about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy, strife, railings....". I am enjoying your comments though they differ with the Bible in my estimation, but I believe it is better to lose a good fight than to win a bad one.

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which of course they did along with ALL other sign gifts as many verses clearly demonstrate for those willing to rightly divide

I'll answer the rest of your post later(I'm cleaning my apartment, at the moment) but I wanted to throw this question in there.

What are these "many" elusive verses that you are referring to? I don't remember you posting any that we could "rightly divide" to mean that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer existent. :huh:

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No' date=' but apparently you have.[/quote']


Yes; however, this is just some of it. :Green

Not at all...look at the scriptures. If we...as believers...can understand one another's "spiritual gifts"....then, imagine what can be accomplished for God. :-)


~ Molly

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Guest Guest

Is this list meant to be exhaustive?

There are many other gifts listed in scripture. The main "lists" are in I Cor 12, Rom 12, and Eph 4 (some argue I Cor 7 says celibacy is a gift, but I have a hard time classifying that as a gift :saint ). Each of those is different.

Perhaps the reason that each list is so different, is because in each case Paul was not trying to say the list was exhaustive, but instead only talk through the ones he was dealing with for that church.



Hi Dwayner...the "list" isn't "exhaustive" to me. :-)

God has given us 7 "spiritual gifts" and...yes, they are ALL contained in the scripture. I recommended a book to Kevin (that contains a test.) It is amazing when Christians take that test what they will find out about their individual gifts. Everyone, has at lest one STRONG "spiritual gift"!! I am interested to see what yours is. :cool With your baby coming, and all, it is something that is worth reading, studying, and praying about. Who knows?

Perhaps the reason that each list is so different' date=' is because in each case Paul was not trying to say the list was exhaustive, but instead only talk through the ones he was dealing with for that church.


Please look closely at the information that PastorHarrison, Seth, and John the Baptist....have given you. :amen:

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